Ethernet Switch- what's the point?

@fredrik222  Cheers, stay on that soapbox buddy. 

If you have a decent system, try the audiophile switch and hear what it does.

In my system both the LHY Sw 10 and the Sotm incl oxco and Keces, with audiophile fuse and powercord, works wonder.

The Lan cable just before the streaming device is also very importaint.

My next move will be to try the kaskade fiber trick between the switches.

Melco advokates to use the 100 Mb so that must be expiriensed as well.

 

@recklesskelly so no one told op to spend money huh? No one? 
 

 

All I can say is that I just love the way my Eero wireless mesh network sounds. I do have a switch of some kind, which is also a modem, which feeds ethernet to the Eero unit and a has a few more outlets that are unused, so I guess I'm listening to that switch too. It sounds great. 

Again @fredrik222 you are misrepresenting the facts in this thread. Be careful jumping up and down on that soapbox.

Judging the OP’s system he has a system that is revealing enough if he had an Innuos product. SW-8 will more than likely do it for him or Fiber, then again maybe not.

my brother spent over $3k on his innuous Ethernet switch and it’s much better sound then mine. If you have a expensive setup the innuos is a must hear,

That's what's called dog paddling.

@recklesskelly i dont care about you, that is correct. I care about the op and future people who want to learn. And being told that a $3k Innuos switch is the way to go is not helpful to anyone. 

@tonix HTTPS is used for most, if not all, streaming services over the internet. That is all that matters. I showed that Qobuz uses https, proving your “logic” invalid.

switches and cables don’t make a difference (after a certain point). 

ladies and gents, why are we entertaining this unpleasant and useless banter?  

@fredrik222

Question is very simple. If you are using a very unefficient protocol like https, which relies on heavy buffering, all is reduced to the quality of client (the webplayer most likely). So, which switch/router/cable to use is no sense question.

If you are changing router/switch/cable and you hear big differences, logic says you are using a UDP like protocol, or the https client is extremely poor.

My 2 eurocents.

 

 

You made a bunch of claims and linked to a guy building his own RF detection device and claimed this guy was a genius and knows everything about RF. I pointed out to you that EMI/RF devices cost $20 on Amazon, and this guy didn’t know anything more than average Joe.

I think you’re confusing me with someone else as I don’t recall stating that. What I did talk about was how TV signals show that it’s not such a clean and sure thing and you shot me down by saying it was a different medium so it didn’t apply.

I also linked to someone who spoke of the issue that nothing really performs at the levels intended at a consistent rate and that IT companies intentionally throttle down to compensate for traffic resulting in less than perfect transmission, which you also dismissed.

 

All the best,
Nonoise

@fredrik222 I have seen a range of $1349.00 (recommendation on LHY SW10) and $89.00 on an isolator switch. You should change your moniker to Chicken Little. Again why should you care if I spend $20K on a switch? It is our money not yours. 

@recklesskelly  people are literally saying to spend thousands of dollars in the thread…

thanks for your comment on my grammar, it matters a lot. 

@nonoise you are misrepresenting what happened. You made a bunch of claims and linked to a guy building his own RF detection device and claimed this guy was a genius and knows everything about RF. I pointed out to you that EMI/RF devices cost $20 on Amazon, and this guy didn’t know anything more than average Joe. 
then you went on to post a bunch of links that contradicted your claims, a while stating that they support your claims, and finally you admitted you actually have no knowledge of the subject at hand. For which I give you kudos, no one else has admitted in the face of facts that they actually don’t know anything.

but you are correct in that I have tried a few Ethernet cables, I still have one in my box of cables, and I have tired the etherregen. I also said why I tried, which was there is no way these should work, what am I missing? 

It's all freddy has ever done. He's stated many times that until someone smarter than him comes forward, what he says can't be refuted. What does that tell you about the man? 

Back when I argued with him, he stated that he tried it and couldn't hear a difference. He couldn't hear a difference or thought it didn't warrant the cost or bother. That's all I need to know.

All the best,
Nonoise

@fredrik222 no one is saying spend thousands of dollars, fiber is cheap. Only person spreading false information is you. Also your grammar is atrocious, and why should you care how anyone spends their hard earned cash? 

@12many I would hardly call it persistence, more like trolling as this is the only subject matter he contributes to. And reading through his archives he is consistently chirping off on it. One trick pony. 

•  i know, that is not the point, the point is to counter all these people are telling people to spends thousands on dollars on things that doesn’t work. So hopefully people don’t go wasting their money. 

 

@thyname yeah, that’s the plan

@yoyoyaya and we are back to bias.

the facts of how a switch works doesn’t change. It is not an intelligent device that can make decisions based on what is transported via the switch. 

Freddy Freddy. Saving a poor soul. One poor soul at a time.

@12many i know, that is not the point, the point is to counter all these people are telling people to spends thousands on dollars on things that doesn’t work. So hopefully people don’t go wasting their money. 

@12many Indeed! The clarity of the information I’m getting was reminiscent of the New York sky earlier this week- obscured!   Enjoy the new sub!! 
 

@zavato   Proceed with caution - there is a lot of wrong info in this thread.

@carlsbad2 You don't understand the technology.

@fredrik222 I admire your perseverance, but you will never change their positions.  No reason to continue.  It reminds me of my grandmother.  No amount of kind explaining or reputable news articles was enough to convince her that a microwave was not putting nuclear radiation in her food.  

I hope you all have a great weekend. My second Rythmik F12 is arriving today and I can't wait.  It is going to be a wonderful and loud weekend.  

@fredrik222. The difficulty here is that a lot of people's experience contradicts the basic "facts".

As has happened throughout the history of science, in these situations advances happen when the apparent contradiction between "facts" and experience is probed and understood.

And yes there is the danger of snake oil, confirmation bias, and placebo effects, but effort needs to be made to rule those out rather than simply dismissing the empirical evidence out of hand.

BTW - that is a general rather than ad hominem comment.

@cleeds you mean like you did when you entered this thread? Question still remains, why do you fill up the forums with easily verifiable false statements?

However, doesn't change anything, search for John Swenson and leakage current (made up term) on audiophilstyles (can't post links to that site or your post are removed)

 

Freddy @fredrik222 :  trying to avoid any responsibility for the lies you post. Let's see if my LINK to Audiophile Style is removed....

If a surge is of concern to you adding a fmc ( fiber media converted) will eliminate

I use this on the incoming cable TV to Wifi router bridge which are about 4' apart but I don't have the funds to run 50' of fiber.  Also, the power adapters of the media converters themselves are additional sources of noise and surge paths.

 

@thyname  yeah, you are right. I thought he was the founder for some reason. 

 

However, doesn't change anything, search for John Swenson and leakage current (made up term) on audiophilstyles (can't post links to that site or your post are removed)

@cleeds  I was wondering when you would show up, you and @carlsbad2  are in the same boat, you think you know things, but you really don't, but you continue to argue. Why? You really have nothing better than fill up forums with garbage that is completely, easily verifiably wrong?

Oh Freddy Freddy .... @fredrik222 .... you never disappoint. Guaranteed to post your usual propaganda on every (and only) networking threads.

Take the example of John Swenson, founder of UpTone and designer of Etherregen. He was forced to admit that he made up terms, terms that does not mean anything, for his intended customer base with the Etherregen. Why forced, because he was confronted by actual engineers.

So many misinformation and outright made up lies on this part. John Swenson is no founder, or even owner of UpTone Audio. Alex Crespi is the founder and the sole owner. John Swenson was hired from UpTone, and he has done work for many audio companies. (i.e. Sonore Audio, and many more).

 

Besides, can you share a source for the "John Swenson admitting he made up things" part of your post? Any links citing John Swenson saying that would do.

 

ad nauseum 

And why? People just don’t search the forums. Easier to post a new thread and agitate that barely had a chance to develop some dry crust pile of 💩 to ensure that it continues to reek.

One day when I’m bored I might start about half a dozen ethernet related threads. And heck, while I’m at it, might as well just start few “why do cables matter” threads. Drop that massive deuce into the forums and run.

@carlsbad2 This is where you go every time you get actually proof of how things work. Can you just stop spewing the garbage you normally do, since it is only lies?

@yoyoyaya  It's not an authority fallacy, it's simply basic facts. However, not everyone understand these facts, but they want to portray themselves as have an understanding. 

Take the example of John Swenson, founder of UpTone and designer of Etherregen. He was forced to admit that he made up terms, terms that does not mean anything, for his intended customer base with the Etherregen. Why forced, because he was confronted by actual engineers.

So again, a switch cannot improve anything, this is a basic fact. A really good switch doesn't add too much latency, no jitter, or packet loss, while a bad switch introduces lots of bad things. Luckily, most $30 switches are more than capable to handle most residential applications. 

@fredrik222 I'd say back away from the keyboard, think some calm thoughts, double up on your bp meds and take the rest of the day off.

@tonix Qobuz uses HTTPS as shown above.

zoom, WebEx, teams also use HTTPS. That Wikipedia is a generic overview that doesn’t go into specifics regarding services like Qobuz, it does however mention that HTTP transport to overcome lots of issues that real time protocols run into over the internet.

Pro audio and video however use real time protocols and absolutely no crap Etherregens or other snake oil switches. But pro audio and video are on low latency, very high speed private networks, and not over the internet.

#fredrik222

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streaming_media
https is TCP/IP, very large buffering, nothing compareable to real-time o live streaming. Probably in your life you never made a video conference using TCP/IP, otherwise you'd know the effects.

@fredrik222 Occam's razor doesn't cut it when one relies on argument from authority fallacies to make one's case.

And before you say you don't understand pcaps, yeah, that is the whole point. So stop lying.

Why do I call it lying? Because you have been told over and over again what the reality is, and you continue deliberately, willfully and intentionally spew the same garbage.

@carlsbad2  @tonix 

Here's a pcap show you are 100% wrong:

 

 

09:35:23.282276 IP 10.255.255.126.52413 > ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https: Flags [P.], seq 606480072:606480227, ack 1691056063, win 2070, options [nop,nop,TS val 4083356658 ecr 4217534470], length 155

09:35:23.282300 IP 10.255.255.126.52413 > ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https: Flags [P.], seq 155:201, ack 1, win 2070, options [nop,nop,TS val 4083356658 ecr 4217534470], length 46

09:35:23.410880 IP ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https > 10.255.255.126.52413: Flags [.], ack 201, win 189, options [nop,nop,TS val 4217560179 ecr 4083356658], length 0

09:35:23.411236 IP ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https > 10.255.255.126.52413: Flags [P.], seq 1:47, ack 201, win 189, options [nop,nop,TS val 4217560179 ecr 4083356658], length 46

09:35:23.411250 IP 10.255.255.126.52413 > ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https: Flags [.], ack 47, win 2069, options [nop,nop,TS val 4083356786 ecr 4217560179], length 0

09:35:23.525859 IP ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https > 10.255.255.126.52413: Flags [P.], seq 47:964, ack 201, win 189, options [nop,nop,TS val 4217560295 ecr 4083356658], length 917

09:35:23.525862 IP ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https > 10.255.255.126.52413: Flags [P.], seq 964:1002, ack 201, win 189, options [nop,nop,TS val 4217560295 ecr 4083356658], length 38

09:35:23.525884 IP 10.255.255.126.52413 > ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https: Flags [.], ack 964, win 2056, options [nop,nop,TS val 4083356901 ecr 4217560295], length 0

09:35:23.525893 IP 10.255.255.126.52413 > ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https: Flags [.], ack 1002, win 2055, options [nop,nop,TS val 4083356901 ecr 4217560295], length 0

09:35:23.531732 IP 10.255.255.126.52413 > ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https: Flags [P.], seq 201:305, ack 1002, win 2070, options [nop,nop,TS val 4083356907 ecr 4217560295], length 104

09:35:23.691822 IP ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https > 10.255.255.126.52413: Flags [.], ack 305, win 189, options [nop,nop,TS val 4217560462 ecr 4083356907], length 0

09:35:23.752906 IP ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https > 10.255.255.126.52413: Flags [.], seq 1002:2450, ack 305, win 189, options [nop,nop,TS val 4217560523 ecr 4083356907], length 1448

09:35:23.752921 IP 10.255.255.126.52413 > ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https: Flags [.], ack 2450, win 2048, options [nop,nop,TS val 4083357128 ecr 4217560523], length 0

09:35:23.752951 IP ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https > 10.255.255.126.52413: Flags [.], seq 2450:3898, ack 305, win 189, options [nop,nop,TS val 4217560523 ecr 4083356907], length 1448

09:35:23.752953 IP ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https > 10.255.255.126.52413: Flags [.], seq 3898:5346, ack 305, win 189, options [nop,nop,TS val 4217560523 ecr 4083356907], length 1448

09:35:23.752954 IP ec2-63-34-141-147.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com.https > 10.255.255.126.52413: Flags [.], seq 5346:6794, ack 305, win 189, options [nop,nop,TS val 4217560523 ecr 4083356907], length 1448

 

Log from my firewall:

Source

10.255.255.126

Destination

63.34.141.147

Service

HTTPS

Protocol

TCP (6)

Destination Port

443

Source Port

52413

Description

OCSP: could not connect to server. Make sure the server is up and running. Certificate DN: 'qobuz.com' Requested Server Name: www.qobuz.com. See sk159872

@yoyoyaya Well, Occam's razor applies. If there is not way a switch can improve anything, which is a fact and how Ethernet and TCP/IP is designed, guess what is the next option?

There is an interesting Live Blind Test Switches on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HNMMksiD_Q 

The two guys don't agree: on prefers and expensive audiophile switch and the other a standard pretty cheap switch. 

I was contemplating buying the cheaper one, but never did. 

 

 

@fredrik222 - confirmation bias is a two way street. To the extent that it applies, objectivists are just as prone to it as subjectivists.

There is a valid role for empirical observation in science otherwise we'd be stuck at "sun stand thou still upon Gibeon".

@carlsbad2 you are always wrong, so there is a reason to my disagreement. 
 

since you think that Qobuz and others uses stateless protocols, post a pcap proving your point. 

@tonix no, they do not. Qobuz, tidal and others use HTTPS. It is so easy to check, so it is ridiculous that you and other lie about this all the time.

@tonix Thanks for the help and support.  I'll remember UDP for the next time I need to explain this.  I thought I was the last one to figure this out but this thread shows there are still lots of people who think streaming is bit perfect.    -Jerry

If you have a fiber connection (rx/tx) before your source, a switch really doesn’t matter that much. 

@fredrik222 You seem to disagree with everything I say.  I don't recommend that path.  Best of luck, Jerry