I'm currently looking to upgrade from my existing Pro-Ject RPM 1.3 to a table that I will (hopefully) never grow out of. I'm looking for something that is *technically* competent, something where I know the engineering is extremely solid and "timeless," and provides a good analog platform to swap carts with. My budget for this is $1600 with cart (but up to $2000 if there's a good case for it). The rest of my system is as follows:
* LSA 2.1 Statement speakers
* Schiit Gumby DAC
* Schiit Freya preamp
* Adcom GFA555 power amp
* Schiit Mani phono stage
So far, I have looked into the Rega P6 (or a used RP6), a Clearaudio Concept, a variety of Pro-Ject offerings, and a Michell Technodec... but at this level there are so many choices, its hard to know where to start. Any ideas? Thanks!
Technics 1200/1210 GR. You can get the black GR models at the pro music sites (Sweetwater) 6 months same as cash. I know people here may throw a fit, I’m running my 1200GR with the KAB A-40 with STY40 stylus. Happy as a bird. Much more detailed and smoother than my AT vm540ml. Many say its basically an Ortofon Black in a Concorde body.
The standard a-40 concorde is based on the Ortofon Blue
Ummm, Jeffreylee, you could be right, but I don’t think so. Assuming that “some people” don’t like superior quality, but that’s a stretch, because common idiots don’t really count as a people. Hel-loo!
Used Well Tempered Simplex. I had some really nice pretty expensive tables before it. LP12, Amazon 2, Mitchel Orbe. Simplex was better than all of them and super easy to set up.
What the hell is all this love in for Technics 1200sg all of a sudden? Can anyone prove that its audiophile musical quality?
@vinny55 Do you need a proof for the brands like Technics ?
Look for SP-10 mkII and MK III, comparing those ultimate turntables to some belt drives is a joke. You may never tried a proper japanese Direct Drive if you asking such questions. The accuracy of new Coreless Direct drive from Technics is second to none, this is probably the best NEW DD motor in existence. However, an old Direct Drive tables are great too (Victor TT-101, Denon DP-80, Luxman PD-444 ... and many more).
Comparing Belt Drive to Coreless Direct Drive is like comparing apples to oranges.
Personally i would never ever buy any belt drive turntable for whatever price, even for free.
Its very ignorant that no one includes Early Thorens, Lenco or AR.
What the hell is all this love in for Technics 1200sg all of a sudden? Can anyone prove that its audiophile musical quality? Does it blow Linn and Ariston away?
I second the pro -ject classic. I bought the sb superpack model with the sumiko blue point no 2. It also came with speed control as well as a great record clamp and leather mat. To my ears and eyes it’s a fantastic table.im waiting to see when the classic evo comes out! What an awesome table that looks to be!
You'd have to be quite the pessimist to be concerned with Technics TT longterm reliability. I have a cheap P mount Technics TT sitting on the shelf that I am certain will outlast me. Japanese direct drives in general just keep ticking. I have several from 70's and 80's that won't stop. U gotta be kidding me.
I'll put in my vote for the Linn, too. I bought mine (SN 1734) used in 1975, with a Keith Monks mercury arm. I've tweaked it over the years, recently attaching the Lingo, and placing corner braces (have a friend with a great wood shop). You can certainly get a used one, maybe even with their best bearing, for what you want to spend. There are a lot of turntables that are cooler looking, but this is definitely a "forever" one.
Lewm, the coreless design in principle as a DESIGN is proven, but design has nothing to do with the EXECUTION. Technics used the exact same motor/platter/tonearm for 30 years and then changed direction in design, which dictates different components are used to execute the different design.
Execution demonstrates its worthiness over the duration it is utilized. That is the measure of durability. In light of the fact that this is a new execution of a different design, it remains to be assessed over a reasonable period of time how well it acquits itself.
Yamaha PX2 linear tracking turntable are very good. Will need to modify the tone arm belt . Its not difficult. Here is a picture of a modified tonearm belt. Dave's Audio Upgrades
Sleepwalker, The coreless motor in the new Technics turntables, even including the SP10R that was tested by M Fremer and found to be the most speed stable turntable that he has ever evaluated, derives from the first coreless turntable motor, invented and marketed by Dual in the late 1950s or early 1960s. How tried and true do you want it to be? Is the 60 year history of its progenitors in the marketplace sufficient to convince you the new motor is likely to be reliable?
The motors of the Pioneer P10 and P3, the Kenwood L07D, the Yamaha GT2000, the Victor TT101, and even up to and including the Brinkmann Bardo, and others I am not thinking of, all belong to this same lineage. In fact, Dual sued Kenwood back in the day, because the L07D motor was too exactly like their motor. Kenwood had to produce a second generation of the L07D in order to avoid patent infringement.
Technics' mistake (IMO) in the making of the new generation of their direct drives was to make them too much like the old SL1200 (and SL1500, 1600, 1700, etc) in outward appearance. However, I understand why they did it. Below the surface, the new models are superior in every way. I side with Chakster in defense of the old line, too. With some mods, they can be made to perform very well. Of course, DJ's liked them too. Why? Because they like other DD turntables come up to speed very rapidly, and because they take a lot of abuse.
I should add that I have purchased several analog products from Mr. Merrill and have always been satisfied. None however could approach the joy I get from buying the Sutherland N1 Preamplifier from George.
Some great suggestions but I would join "leotis" and get a Merrill GEM Dandy PolyTable. I've know George for decades and he can get you some goose-bumps!
This "budget" table gets all the trickle down R&D from his Merrill-Williams R.E.A.L. 101.3 Turntable (to often overlooked-I would love to own . Speed & stability controls are probably the best on the planet and dampening isolation is exceptional. The review by Michael Fremer should have been vindication enough for most to seek this GEM out.
...for even less money, under $1000 if you’re lucky, vintage Denon DP80.
Good suggestion Lewm. DP80 is my keeper. This is after LP12, Oracle Delphi, Thorens 124, 125, 126, Garrard 301, 401, Micro Seiki DQX1000, various Regas and Aristons. None compare for rock-steady pitch and silence. It has Quartz lock, or manual if you prefer. They sell under a Gee on the bay, and that leaves more than enough to replace all the ’lytics (for the 'forever' part) and buy a good tonearm or cartridge (if needed).
well, even though I own a Technics, the older scout is just a hard table to beat for used prices. I listened to a fully radicalized lp12 and came home and listened to the scout and did not feel like I was missing much. Was the LP12 better, sure it costs 20K, it better be. However the scout really delivers a very pleasing analog playback. you might be surprised.
Interesting thread. Forever turntable. Under $2k. And surprisingly, a whole bunch of people seriously think there is such a thing. Even more interesting, they're right! My Technics is from 1975. My Teres is from 2003 http://www.teresaudio.com/fame/40.html There are of course plenty of turntables from Linn, Garrard, and others that may be even older yet still running strong, and still getting good money in the used market. Clearly there is such a thing as a forever turntable.
But everyone knows that. What's interesting is, could you imagine a thread like this only looking for a forever CD player?
My personal "forever" turntable is superheavy Luxman PD-444 Direct Drive for two tonearms. I think the designer is genuous. Here is the manual . I've sold Technics SP-10 mkII because of my two Luxman machines and i don't regret about it.
I'd read up on The Classic from Pro-Ject. I bought with the intention to have a forever turntable. It was between The Classic and Funk Firm's LSD. It's been over a year and I have no complaints or desires to upgrade the table. The VTA and azimuth is adjustable, which is great if you like trying out different carts. The damping is excellent too.
Looking at that Technics webpage again, the full statement is...
"Sine waves stored in ROM are used for the control waveforms at constant speed, and this achieves smoother and more stable rotation compared with using the simple sine wave generation with an external coil as in the conventional SL-1200MK5."
"...everyone knows that silicon is a crystalline element that is as far from being compliant and vibration damping..."
Could the trick be that Technics does not use silicone, but silicone rubber?
I have a hard time believing that their marketing material did not get proofread by someone technically adept. It would be unexpected that someone can design multiple widely-praised machines and have no clue what she/he is talking about.
When it comes to reliability, pretty much everyone agrees that old Technics have been quite durable. New ones may not be and time will tell. However, the same is true for old ones that are pushing 40 years now. What will last longer starting from today? 40-year-old turntable or a new one?
Technics SL-1200 did not start as a DJ turntable. It got adopted by DJs. Not all were used hard. Many have lived a decent home life.
"Sine waves can not be stored digitally and still faithfully resemble a clean waveform."
The text mentioned (“Sine waves stored in ROM are used for the control waveforms at constant speed, and this achieves smoother and more stable rotation”) does not talk about clean waveform, but about smoother and more stable rotation. Both being relatives, "better when compared to..." in some way. It is definitely a marketing description, but does not promise eternal accuracy.
I'd look for a nice used TT like @wspohn suggested. I like VPI personally. Clearaudio looks nice too, but never heard one. A used VPI Prime would be ideal.
Want to spend $2K on a new table? Go buy one second hand that cost the owner $4k when he bought it. Most owners of tables in that category are very careful with them and they are usually in great condition (Technics perhaps accepted).
I have heard some very positive comments about Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab turntables: They offer a budget friendly Studio Deck for $1,350 USD and a slightly more refined model known as Ultra Deck for $2,300. The spec sheets are very close and I don't believe the extra $1,050 is justified, but evaluate them as close as you wish. The S/N is 2dB better on the Ultra Deck; both have W/F range of .017%-.025%, and weigh in at 19 to 23 pounds. I believe that there are several cartridge options if you are looking for the total package delivered to your door. You can order one from Crutchfield or MusicDirect with a return guaranty. Best of luck with your search and evaluation.
It also needs to be said that vintage turntables are a potential solution for the OP. There were many fine examples built in the golden age of turntables, and very few that offer the choices and functionality that vintage turntables did in those days.
The all-new SL-1200 series share none of the motor / platter / spindle / bearing design that has stood up to the abusive hands of rap-“DJs” for years. There is no history of performance, (good or bad), so don’t expect these mostly new designs to carry on exactly as the original SL-1200mk2/m3d/mk5/etc have. That would be like trying to compare a 1970 Dodge Challenger to a 2019 Dodge Challenger. They share the same name, similar appearance and purpose, but are essentially very, very different machines.
I have an LP12 and a Technics 1200 (among about a dozen more TT's in my collection). I prefer the Linn, but that's just my personal prejudice! Either table is capable of musically satisfying playback! So I say get a 1200 - the best "right out of the box" choice today! No tweaking required! And fifty years from now it will still be working fine!
Now looking at audiophile interests, the SL-1200mk2 units available on the used market are almost always severely abused and heavily damaged from rap”DJ” use. This is much the same as why you would not want to buy a car that had been used as a taxi. On the other hand, the rap”DJ” market doesn’t like spring-suspended turntables for record scratching, so used spring suspended units will seldom be found in thrashed and trashed condition, making them better candidates for restoration for HiFi applications.
I will repead again for this ....... person @sleepwalker65 (who always complain to moderator asking for post removal).
He always abuse DJs on this forum in every post related to Technics turntables, i’m sick about it.
I want to remind him: Technics support the Art of DJing in any form and whithout DJs they could NOT sell 3 000 000 copies of their turntables to make the price so cheap for Made in Japan DD.
I will also repead again that he has no idea what the DJs are doing on the turntables, because it’s impossible to damage turntable using it for scratching or whatever dj’s tricks. Those people can only damage their own cartridges and records, but they can’t damage Technics turntable. The platter constantly rotate forward under the slipmat (felt mat) even when a DJ spinning record back and forth, look here. It’s also impossible to damage a tonearm or anything else. If they could damage turntable, those SL1200mk2 and SL1210mkII could not be used for such a long time as the industry standard woldwide for professionals.
The story that DJs damaging turntable during the dj-set is a myth!
We have fixed many Technics turntables for bars and clubs and normally there is nothing serious to worry about, except for the wires, rca connectors, pitch control fader, or maybe armtube if it was damaged by someone else during transportation of the turntables. All these parts available from Technics and cheap as chips. There is nothing to damage, the main problem is liquid dropped on pitch control, then pitch control must be completely removed to a new one (available for $40-60 max). The pitch control suffer from liquid, if anyone near the dj booth dropped a glass of alcochol to the pitch control then it will cause speed instability, after pitch control fader swapped to a new one then everythin is fine.
I’ve been using SP-10mkII for High-End application, but my pair of SL1210mk2 served me more than 20 years almost everyday use until i have upgraded them with new internal and external wires, feet etc.
However, old Technics is not a subject of this post since we’re recommending NEW Technics GR with the OP’s budget up to $2k (while the old SL1200mkII is $350-500 used)
If the question is about OLD Technics then definitely SP-10mkII (i paid $1200 for a MINT condition, without arm and plinth).
Only sleepwalker talking about his old semi-automatic 1600 or 1700 models for some reason. New Technics GR or old SP-10mkII killing it !
Anyone who prefer suspended footers can buy Isonoe for any old or new Technics. I’m using them on my SL1200mkII.
Now looking at audiophile interests, the SL-1200mk2 units available on the used market are almost always severely abused and heavily damaged from rap”DJ” use. This is much the same as why you would not want to buy a car that had been used as a taxi. On the other hand, the rap”DJ” market doesn’t like spring-suspended turntables for record scratching, so used spring suspended units will seldom be found in thrashed and trashed condition, making them better candidates for restoration for HiFi applications.
Again, you have no idea what you’re talking about with your abusive statement about DJing in every post. Turntable just rotate the record, that’s it, nothing else. If someone scratching on Technics Direct Drive TT all they can damage is their own record and cartridge, but not a turntable at all ! The motor constantly rotate forward under slipmat even when someone moving record back and forth. There is a felt mat (slipmat) designed for it. There are special needles designed for scratch like Shure m44-7 and i will repead it again that turntable or tonearm can not be damaged from scratching, only stylus and record can be damaged. If you see a damaged Technics this happened not because of the scratch DJs. Also i think it’s only you living in the world of scratch DJs, normal people rarely see them in the clubs or in the bars, normally DJs playin music to make people dance (all king of music) and playin the music they can’t damage Technics turntable.
And an old Technics is not a subject of this post, since we’re recommending NEW Technics for the budget up to $2k while the old technics available for $350-500 used.
If anyone would like to replace stock feet to suspended feet then Isonoe footers available for old or for new Technics. So this is not a problem at all.
Nobody interested in your old semi-automatic Technics 1600 or 1700.
Also your opinion about Technics is irrelevant and you have proved it in many posts staring with some bad words and hate for the DJs.
If you don’t know Technics always support the art of DJing in any form!
Pay a little respect to Technics and to the DJs after all.
Without Club DJs Technics would never sell 3 000 000 units of SL1200mk2 series.
As for the audiiphiles there are always an SP-10mkII available since the 70’s. I’ve been using SP-10mkII , also a pair of upgraded SL1200mk2.
When it comes to a used High-End Technics DD i would recommend SP-10mkII, but definitely not an SL1600 or SL1700.
Love my Dual 604 semiautomatic turntable I purchased new in the late 1970’s. No issues at all after owning for more than 40 years. The semiautomatic feature has never failed to work correctly. Very inexpensive German TT when purchased on the used market.
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