Another +1 for GIK
I worked with them about 3 months ago. I sent pics of my space and they came back with a very detailed strategy. I chose 5 of the impressions panels with the decorative wood face. I also got two of the bass traps. All panels are about 2x4 feet. The impressions are 4in thick and the bass traps about 6.
As the OP said, the bass traps had an immediate effect. I had become so accustomed to the boom that it was pretty shocking how it cleaned up the bass and made other aspects of the music more defined.
The impression panels were not as effective but I like them and it made my space more cozy so there’s that.
Overall about $1000 for 7 custom made panels along with their superb support...I think their value is phenomenal. I don’t have a shop nor the patience for this type of project after remodeling two houses over the past decade LOL. I will gladly pay an expert to do their job and me do my job.
My house is 100 yo with very strong picture railing so that made things very simple for hanging. Check out my virtual system if you want to see how it turned out.
Their suggestion for phase 2 is to put panels on my ceiling. I am not yet sure about this. That will be quite a bit more challenging to affix.
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I just got back a while ago from doing a RoomTune "Room In A Box" setup here in town. Well I sat on the sofa letting the owner do the work and I guided the placement. It was funny he turned to me after the first RT Square went up "did you hear that?". Of course I've been through this a million times but still :) . He put the next one up and made another comment. It was like watching him eat a steak. When he got done he was pretty freaked out. A buddy of his got there as he had barely put up the last one. The lights had just been turned down and I'm not sure his friend was aware I was coming over. He walks in the room and let out an "Oh God, sounds like a studio in here what did you do". The lights went back up and the look on their faces were priceless. Thought I was going to get a hug. This hobby is so fun when folks get to that acoustical level. It's like watching them become new people. I got out of their way and they started flipping through songs to listen to. Glad to see you guys having fun! mg |
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Thank you Michael!I did some more reading last night and came across more info on panels that use wood on the front combined with rockwool and air gaps.I more fully understand how that works and it's effectiveness.I welcome any and all opinions that inspire me to investigate and learn something new:)
Anywho,I managed to find the final positions for the GIKs just today.So yay!After moving them every which way, they have ended up layered together in each corner touching the ceiling.There's a huge positive difference getting them off of the floor and in that critical junction where the ceiling and walls meet and HEAVILY trapping the corners.There were two corners with nulls and the other two had quite a bit of bass build up.Now those areas have been smoothed out and everything is sounding great.This is in a pretty close to square room,so if it can be "tuned" satisfactorily without being overdamped there is hope for those of us with small rooms:)
This all came about after replacing my little Sunfire bookshelves with a more dynamic speaker(Tektons).Before when the subwoofer handled most of the bass it was juuust right.Now it's just right once again and I'm really liking the more authoritive "live" presentation.The only other thing I may add is a diffusion panel behind the listening position.So done for now,and I'll get some pics on my page in the next week or so along with the precise recipe for getting better sound in a less than ideal room for any who are curious.
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Hi Jtcf The tuning days are coming back strong. I was very surprised to see tuning had drifted so far from what we had started back in the 90’s. In the late 90’s we (MGA RoomTune) had saturated the market and it seemed like Tuning would only grow stronger on it’s own. But then the mom & pop audio stores went under and the magazines had bills to pay, so the emphasis moved back to selling boxes. I wasn’t overly aware of this cause I moved to Nashville to work on studios. I did home audio still but could see HEA was going through some issues and I by myself was not going to make my desires stick in a reviewing market that had their sights on selling extremely over priced products. One reviewer told me this (more than one actually), we have a choice push your Tuning for very little cost or sell $20,000.00 amplifiers. I understood where they were coming from, $400.00 for a TunePak vs $100,000.00 of electronics to the same client. Obviously the $100,000.00 choice by Stereophile was going to keep their lights on. What I didn’t understand was why not do both. That’s when my reviewer friends also gave me that answer. HEA manufacturers didn’t want the Tuning Revolution to take off. At that time I had over 80,000 clients. That means 80,000 people might choose to Tune taking away that many potential sales from equipment designers. That’s a pretty big deal when you think about it. show & tell When I started showing the industry that you could Tune a $500.00 amplifier and it would out perform a $25,000.00 one, that made folks pretty darn nervous. The behind the scenes word gets around pretty fast and when I showed up at the CES with a set of Marantz Mono Blocks MA700’s and slaughtered the sound of the rooms on either side, the very first night I had folks in my room telling me this was not going to fly with the "powers that be". The industry thought it their duty to tell me not to build Tunable products. Too late, I had already designed Tunable everything and was getting ready to launch an entire "Method of Tuning" and all the ingredients that goes with that pie. I obviously felt (so did others evidently) that the hobby was about to change from "Fixed" to "Variable". But like I mentioned earlier local stereo stores (650 of whom were RoomTune dealers) started dropping like flies, sadly going out of business before they had a chance to learn how to do their on-line store. There went my network. It really would have been the perfect time to change things over from Fixed to Variable but the folks at the top of the food chain didn’t want to make the jump. Many of them had found their fortunes and didn’t want to have to start teaching listeners how to tune, is what they decided. More money (for the short term) for them to build bigger toys and less of them, then spend their time with the listeners, showing them how to get great sound and be able to play all of their music collection. I tested the waters a couple of times to bring Tuning back, but decided it would be much easier to bring Tuning back after HEA ran it’s course and started to run out of gas. Now that things like Class D amplifiers have challenged the expensive guys and the expensive buying revolving door is failing, it’s time to give things another go round. I first started to post on the Stereophile forum but was trolled to death from the start, so I just stayed on TuneLand till I decided to test the waters here. Between here, facebook and TuneLand I’m receiving on average 100 messages a day asking about Tuning or making renewed contact with me. This is a good start and one by one folks are coming over to Tuning or renewing their interest. That’s pretty exciting. I’ve even started talks with Agon so that as more folks get into the Tuning toys again we will find the best way to promote. I believe the best days of this hobby are still ahead, because I believe listeners are experimenting again beyond just doing the equipment plug and play thing. nice chatting with you jtcf. thanks for letting me share my thoughts on your thread mg |
Michael I do remember seeing your products way back when:)You actually inspired me to experiment with 'tuning'the speakers I owned at the time to dampen and tighten up the bass.I also made some pillows and thumb tacked them in the alcove behind the speakers in our former house to good effect.
You have some interesting products and theories and thank you for posting more about them.
Another thing that I find fascinating is how way back in time how jugs filled with different levels of sand and stones were used as acoustic treatments in amphitheaters.Then there are the old churches,theaters,etc. that sound amazing and perfect.Acoustic perfection to me is my aural memory of concerts at the old Fox Theater in Detroit. |
Hi jtcf I make several types of acoustical/mechanical designs. The first one introduced was the RoomTune pillow product. RT is a two sided pillow, one side burn and one side live. In almost all cases the "live" side faces the room while the "burn" side faces the wall. Next was the RoomTune Deluxe which allows listeners to zone their room. Still live side burn side. The live side faces the listener in most cases and the burn side acts as an acoustical barricade, or stop sign, for the unwanted pressure. The RTD became the standard for floorstanding tuning and that’s when "pressure zoning" took off, replacing LEDE. RT floorstanding products started what was called by TAS the "Tuning Revolution" which sent me around the world introducing folks to a more involved way of listening. At that time I presented three concepts that better explained how the room works for the listener. One is "Laminar Flow", next "Corner and Seam Loading Control" and third "Pressure Zones", and gave the hobby a new term "RoomTuning". The thing to keep in mind is at that time we didn’t have the internet, so the talking about these types of things were done through the magazines. There were 3 acoustical guys back then (besides killing the sound products like Sonex). One was ASC "trapping", second RPG "defusing" and RoomTune "tuning". If you look through the Michael Green’s "TuneLand" forum you’ll find a blend of products, RoomTune, PZC, SoundShutters, all the way up to an actual "Tunable Room". With the PZC specifically, it is a Pressure Zone Controller, a tunable barricade system that replaces the sound coming off of the room’s structure. Before the room’s loading has a chance to activate the PZC grabs the energy and converts it to two things. One is the acoustical pressure and the other is the mechanical vibratory structure of energy. If you walk into a "Tuned" room it literally is "In-tune". At that point there is no need for trapping the energy. If there is any need in that department I make something called the Pressure Box, which set in the right place takes care of any extra in-room loading still going on. As far as the need for defusing in a Tuned Room, there is none because the sound pressure is now working with the speakers and the room not against each other. RoomTuning and Tuning in general (Tunable speakers, electronics and all the tuning toys) is about restoring music not distorting. With the PZC’s being wood in the front, look at the Tuning Bolt. When you adjust these you re-voice the mechanical/acoustical interaction, exactly like what you are doing with a guitar, drum, piano or any other acoustical instrument. In other words what I do is turn your room and system into a musical instrument, instead of energies fighting each other they are tuned to work together. mg |
Michael your spot treatments are very attractive aesthetically and I understand how treating the reflection points precisely could be effective.The hard surface of the wood seems counterintuitive though.Shouldn't the wood be a diffusion panel?
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Or, maybe you guys should get the original upper corner treatment and kick back and listen to your recordings for the first time "RoomTuned" :) It's nice to see so many coming full circle and back to the original treatment that got it all started to begin with. (Brag with a bit of fun promotion). http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/roomtune So easy to tune the room with RoomTune, your speakers, your room and your ears. And, so fun to tune your room with other RoomTune folks (Tunees). I love square rooms, or any room as far as that goes. Tuning a room is one of the most exciting adventures a listener can have. In the last several years, removing other folks products and seeing RoomTune go in, or even back in, has been a blast. Want to step it up a few notches? Make it variable. http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/pressure-zone-controller Want to get any sound you want? Do a full Tunable system. http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/system-tuning I'm working on the updated site now to walk any audiophile through making your systems completely Tunable. In the meantime you can visit us at TuneLand and watch your fellow Agon members get Tuned up, all the way to the Tunable Room. So nice to have the hobby go Tunable! So nice to see folks get to their dream sound! Michael Green |
No worries.The new speakers have more bass energy and just needed to tame a 'thump' in my (unfortunately) square room.The thump is banished.Just experimenting with fine tuning now.
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+1 for GIK, careful to not overly dampen and suck the life out of the room. |
Today I found permanent spots for the panels on the front wall.1. Monster trap centered behind the stereo 2.The 244s straddling both corners on top of matching bookshelves so they touch the ceiling with a 2x2 spot trap also on top of the shelves in front of of the larger traps.(each of those traps have range limiters,less highs absorbed).I tried two large panels together on the shelves but it sounded overdamped.
So now there's seven more panels to mess with:)
I'm interested to see how the sound changes when they are next to the ceiling/wall junction as opposed to just centered on the wall.Also I'm curious about panels on the ceiling.... |
Thanks slaw!I'll check with you first if I end up needing more.Still moving the panels around and experimenting....
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Check out www.readyacoustics.com I ordered several years ago. Don’t know how they price/configure now. They have their own fabric ready made to cover the OC. I actually have several I’m not using if interested? |
@erik_squires my speakers are (shhhh) Tekton Impact Monitors.Today I moved everything out of the living room and played around with positioning the panels and speakers.Right now it's sounding pretty darn good.The four corners have the 244s with range limiters plus the 2x2 spot panels(range limited) resting on top so it's almost floor to ceiling.Tomorrow I will hang the 244s by themselves so they are touching the ceiling and experiment with placement of the spot panels.The monster trap is behind the console on the front wall along with all three of the 242s.One is on top of the monster (think letter T).The 242s had no effect on each side to capture reflections there.I propped one behind my listening chair and didn't care for that much absorption.Diffusion would be better or perhaps even a wall hanging,or leave well enough alone🙂
So anywho,I'm really happy with the smoothed out bass.The windows are not the problem I thought they were at all!In my squarish room the front wall and corners seem to be most important.Next up is treating the wall/ceiling junction.I'll move the spot panels around singlely and in groups and see what happens.
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Thanks @millercarbon.I did consider making my own but GIK is able to make their traps with 'range limiters' so they will absorb a bit more bass and leave the high frequencies alone which intrigued me.It's a lot more expensive unfortunately than diy,sigh....but worth it so far to get the professional help and support from GIK and to fine tune the room.They have such a variety of diffusers,scatter plates,etc. that's beyond my expertise.Plus they are returnable so I took the plunge🙂
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The most effect for the least material is a triangle shape in the upper ceiling corners. 12" on a side is plenty. Next most effective is vertically where the walls meet, and horizontally where the walls meet the ceiling. 12" wide by however long you want to treat. The most common material used is Owens Corning 703 https://www.google.com/search?q=owens+corning+703&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS765US765&oq=owens+corning+... It comes in different thicknesses, is available all over, and if you hunt around they even have a spec sheet with graphs showing acoustic absorption of the different panels by frequency. OC703 cuts easily with scissors or knife, or like butter with a table saw. Its light enough to be put up with little push pins that leave an almost invisible hole in the wall, making it trivial to experiment with locations. Then when you settle on what and where its easily covered with whatever fabric you want. Just be aware your choice of fabric will affect performance- the more transparent like speaker grills the less change, the more tight and strong the weave the more it will reflect like any other surface. |
GIK makes great stuff.
I use their soffit traps as corner traps. They leave more usable floor space.
Remind us of your speakers?
Best,
E
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