Harley quote

But a signal on a wire to great accuracy is not one of them.

cleeds3,579 posts01-23-2021 12:16pm audio2design

Diminishing returns is the term used by audiophiles with more money than common sense in order to justify that there will always be an improvement ...

The concept of diminishing returns is a well-established principle. It is a very real thing, not some imaginary factor.

... in reality at some point there is no audible improvement, and many changes are only different, not better.

You contradict yourself. If a change results in a difference, then it's possible to establish whether it is better or worse, both objectively (at least in theory) and subjectively.

Apparently what I wrote was too nuanced for you to understand Cleeds. My apologies. I am sure it was clear to most.

"Can't we just get along?"

audio2design

Apparently what I wrote was too nuanced for you to understand Cleeds. My apologies. I am sure it was clear to most.

Don’t be silly. Your "nuance" doesn’t conceal your ill logic. If two components can objectively be shown to be different, then one can be shown to be superior to the other, at least in theory.

... in reality at some point there is no audible improvement, and many changes are only different, not better. 

Many of your pronouncements suffer from faulty logic, @audio2design, and I just ignore them. But this one was exceptionally absurd.

Audiophiles with more money than common sense have gone beyond diminishing returns they've reached negative returns. 

djones51

Audiophiles with more money than common sense have gone beyond diminishing returns they’ve reached negative returns.

With only rare exceptions, pretty much all audio equipment results in a negative return because it depreciates so quickly. Audio equipment is part of a hobby, not an investment.

Nuance does seem to be lost on this fellow.

@cleeds - @djones is talking about spending money and getting worse sound. Of course it is a bad investment - no one is talking about that. We are talking about value in improved SQ for each incremental dollar spent. The law of diminishing returns (for audio equipment specifically) just simply states that all things being equal, for each incremental dollar spent the sound improvement decreases. Of course if poorly paired equipment (or just overpriced stuff) there can be a degradation. It is most appropriate/evident within a product line of a manufacturer. 

In the discussion of an overall integrated system, you can talk about new HVAC systems, new power lines, room renovation, beyond equipment.

When dealers pay 60% (or less) for equipment, most used stuff is immediately depreciated that 40%. Now, if you can find equipment that holds that 60% long term, you have better value, especially if you buy it used.

I am trying to help cure people from upgradeitis, and to enjoy what they have and improving their existing equipment with the positive connotation of tweaks, where they are audible, not just measurable.

Audio experience has nothing to do with money first...

Audio experience has nothing to do with upgrade first...

Audio experience has nothing to do with blind consumerism...

Audio experience is the question you ask yourself about the system you already own which was carefully chosen, with your purse limitations, and the question is: how do i install in his working dimensions optamally what i own for listening it at his optimal level....

There is plenty of example of very costly system that sound bad or harsh because people never figure it out.... Replacing gear is NOT audiophile experience....

Experiencing natural timbre and good imaging on ANY system because we know how to control the working dimensions is audio experience.....

True @mahgister. However, once you've conquered those issues, upgrading equipment can improve the sound, sometimes dramatically. Just beware of the law of diminishing returns....and upgradeitis. People spending monopoly money on stereo equipment is good for the economy and the manufacturers they support. They want the hottest/latest/"best" reviewed. If not for them, we'd all have less manufacturers, and less choice, and certainly higher used equipment prices, and that would not be a good thing.

It's just like with cars. Some people want the brand new 2021 model and are willing to pay list or close to list price to be the first one on their block with it. For an example, a Porsche 911 may depreciate $40-50K during an initial 2-3 year lease of $2K/month, and then someone (like me) can get one with an extended manufacturers warranty and 99% of the enjoyment at a the depreciated price. Is it worth $50K to me to get the last 1% cachet - no way. The law of diminishing returns strikes once again. The best are the monopoly money guys (or girls) who BUY new and keep them for a year or less (I've heard of one that keeps them for about 3 months) and take a ridiculous hit. But they don't care, and if they're happy because they got a different color or a cabriolet for springtime, I'm happy that they make the cars more accessible. Otherwise there would be way fewer on the market and the prices would be even higher.

True @mahgister. However, once you’ve conquered those issues, upgrading equipment can improve the sound, sometimes dramatically.

It is a common place fact that my vintage Sansui AU 7700 so good it is and it is a very good amplifier, cannot beat the new ZOLT technology of Berning for example or many other improved design at very higher cost...

My point is when you know how to install an "only" good gear, upgrading may seems suddenly ludicrous, controlling embeddings is the WAY in audiophile experience at any cost, not upgrading...

But for sure if i inherit the money i will upgrade to the ZOTL... But i dont give a damn about it now , the urge is dead now, because the vibraphone changing colors and hues in his slow decays are in my room already....There is better to come possibly but i can live with what i have and this is the point...

I created an "upgrade effect" at no cost for the last 2 years with the same system, only experimenting with the 3 working dimensions of my system....

I listen music now and  dont read much  reviews anymore...
😁

High end audio is the pursuit of perfection in a world of individuals that each have different inherent tools, in their ears, their minds and the connectivity of the ear and mind. Exploration into known aspects and ...critically... unknown aspects in unknown combination with each other and the known aspects.

Of course there will be conflict. Part of scientific exploration, it is.

Attempts to lock it into engineering rigor will fail, at every single turn.

To add, science has rigor but does not use facts. Science has only theories, as facts cause the arrow of progress to turn back on itself or be in error in perpetuity... as it contains no potential for error correction.

Thus the need for scientific rigor is extremely high in science. This, in order to maintain correctness of course... as a system of self correction, in the one given way. It works, as well as it can. It’s all we can ask. (Scientific rigor...is predominately mental discipline in assessment of data or information/observation--ie the logic of philosophy, where philosophy is science’s actual parent and origin point. Philosophy being about systems of logic/rigor in human thought, one might say. Thus Descartes generally ill applied ’I think, therefore I am’, as a basis of the scientific revolution, expressed in the one way)

At the same science and scientific logic rigor...cannot, under any circumstances, ascribe human law and punishment for violation of laws, into the concept and idea of science as a system of overall human advancement.

Thus science itself, vehemently and by extreme force in all areas (when pushed hard enough), denies the potential for scientific laws to exist.

Theory, only theory. At any and all price.

Engineers use facts as their point of origin as an enterprise and occupation, as a planned for occupational system of principle education and actual day to day usage after the formal teaching period has ended.

This is all about the idea of using the main mental component of standard human dogmatism, where dogmatism and projection into it...is essentially the main psychological constructs of mind in commonality, in humans.

Rote repetitive learning, laws of physics... here’s your law text/religious documents.. that fits your (bulk of humanity’s) projection of mind...and... go forth and build things. Safe things that don’t kill people but work, with some universality within their systems of constraint.

One can see this playing out in just about any post on this forum where the contentious subjects are being discussed.

Some say ’science!’, where they really mean ’dogma!’ (and butchery for all violators of projected law)as they use ’science law’.. laws of physics.

The laws of physics is a thing that does not exist, whatsoever. A thing designed for dogmatic minds, so they can be useful to building out a scientifically enabled world.

Then the theorists can do their work of dealing with what is an actual malleable theoretical enabled world of exploration where they can move forward and not get caught up in curling around themselves and being in a dead end that goes nowhere... as laws prevent it from doing so. CRITICAL. CORE.

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Ie, I can go to any (top) university department and ask the head professors in all the high levels of physics, where the leading edge of things is taught... and any and all of those professors...will look at me like I’ve got three heads, if I mention the idea, or questions that any one of them teaches their students with ’the laws of physics’.

The reality being that they EXPLICITLY disallow anyone to be taught that physics has laws.

So when I get onto these forums and someone screams "laws of physics!, you are crazy, you can’t hear those things, the measurements don’t show it -they cant be true!..

well..

At that moment...I know that I’m very very likely dealing with dogmatic based mind projections that have absolutely nothing to do with science and/ or exploration. and are merely force projections of mind due to ego issues and whatnot.

Interestingly enough, about a month ago, Elon Musk clarified this point and corrected everyone, via twitter, that they are, at SpaceX, in actuality.... rocket ENGINEERS, not Rocket scientists.

Concerning this core point I make, Elon made sure that people know he does not approve of the ’rocket science’ label as it is wholly misapplied. He build rockets with facts, not theories. Rocket engineering is no place for theoretical games.

Leave that exploration to the real world of physicists and their creation and or sorting of the new data points... that engineers can then use to build out the world.

But, since the theories are subject to change in the face of new data and new observations, the engineers can build with their facts and laws but, critically, essentially... engineering and dogmatic mindsets CANNOT demand that others who are exploring the unknown and undefined areas of the world somehow conform to their dogmatic projections of mind.

If an engineering dogmatic mind comes along and demands such slavish obeisance as a projection upon others, it deserves to be slapped down, openly, publicly, and hard. For all the right reasons. As their actions and desires are the death of progress, killed in it’s cradle.

Now, with that out on the open, what’s so hard to understand? Is the blinkered dogmatism, the blind spot... about the nature of science? I just cleared that up....

So go ahead... burn me at the stake, if the desire possesses. Crucify me. Show yourself openly.

What a long post just simply saying there are scientific theories, not laws based on evidence in the physical world.

Back to the physical world....

Maybe he needs to build rockets that don't crash.

Goethe said it in his elliptic and very clear way:

«There is no theory behind facts»

He add that learning to perceive the facts is the theory itself...

To be understood very clearly he said also:

« The History of science IS science»

Wow.. what a thread.. everything from rocks to the ice age..  somehow this relates to audio cables? Or just more ways to insult others who disagree ?
Maybe in biblical days the rocks and stones themselves would start to sing, as described  in Jesus Christ Superstar. maybe that inspired double blind testing and people getting stoned by those who disagreed. Not much different than this virtual hate fest. 

Just posting one critic’s critique of another brings out the fan boys and alchemists in such a predictable way it’s like self propigating soup.

BTW DSD is better than analog AND hi res PCM digital but this is not a thread for that opinion.