So Chakster, then why is it that the vast majority of the most high-end turntables are belt drive? I welcome your explanation. There could be something to learn from it.
And, per your comment, then my new Rega Planar 10 turntable is junk? I beg to differ as it sounds better than any other turntable I have owned, direct drive and belt drive units. I am very open minded so, please, explain away... |
Chakster, as always there are conflicting attributes. Yes DD tables are some of the most stable. Most think that added stability is meaningless.
The Dohmann Helix turntables are belt drive and even more accurate.
It uses twin belts of different durometers and a drive system that will maintain the programmed speed regardless of friction, etc.
Having an oscillating electromagnetic device under a very sensitive electromagnetic device is a bad idea especially when the platter is paper thin. XactAudio's Beat turntable might get away with it as the platter has got to be 4" thick. Remember magnetic field strength drops with the square of the distance. Price is about the same as the Dohmann. I would take the Dohmann in a heartbeat. Dohmann is far more open about its design whereas the Beat is cloaked in mystery most likely because there is nothing patentable about its design. The Dohmann's MinusK suspension is patent protected. I also prefer suspended turntables. The Beat is supposed to be isolated but it is not suspended. I do not believe in magic.
The one saving grace of the direct drive turntable is you do not have to worry about belt wear. I figure if I can change the accessory belt on a 911, I can change a belt on anything:) |
The primary functions of the turntable are consistently turning the platter at 33-1/3 rpm (stable accuracy) and doing so with little noise. It is the most critical component in the analog chain. Right. All high-end Direct Drive turntables are the most stable in speed accuracy on the planet. This problem does not exist for DD owners. There is no issue with speed at all. Motor on Neumann cutting lathe is also Direct Drive and this is the first step in vinyl manufacturing process. Turntable that can’t guarantee speed accuracy are junk. Problems with speed accuracy associated only with Belt Drive turntables, but people loves them, don’t you see? |
To my way of thinking, the turntable is the analog system’s clock: it creates the time in which the source signal comes to life and exists. If the event at the nexus of the stylus and the moving groove does not occur at 33 1/3rpm, no downstream function can make the signal right.
The amplitude portion of the musical waveform comes from the cartridge, but the frequency portion, the time element of that waveform, comes from the turntable.
The primary functions of the turntable are consistently turning the platter at 33-1/3 rpm (stable accuracy) and doing so with little noise. It is the most critical component in the analog chain.
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Lewm, that would go against every review ever done on the Sapphire and my own personal experience. Getting a Triplanar on there must have been a lot of fun. I would have to assume something was wrong with your table. I have never been next to the Nottingham. It reminds me of the Brinkman Balance. At any rate I prefer suspended tables. You can make a decent improvement on your Nottingham's performance if you put it on a MinusK platform.
https://www.minusk.com/products/ct2-ultra-thin-low-height-vibration-isolation-platform.html?hm
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the other thing not mentioned here is the phono preamp... you can't go cheap on that... plan on spending at least $500. If you are using anintegrated unit with an inexpensive phono pre, start there or you could nothear much of a difference in upgrading a TT.
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Mijo, I don’t disagree with your general principles, except as regards the prime importance of speed constancy, which I emphasize more than you, apparently. But then you come down to recommending the Star Sapphire, a spring suspended belt drive. I owned one for 10 years as my only turntable. At the time, I considered it an entry into the high end of Audio. I ran a triplanar tonearm on it, for most of that time. I only later realized that vinyl reproduction does not have to include unstable piano and violin notes and muddy bass, which is all I ever got from the Sapphire. I went from the Sapphire to a Nottingham analog hyperspace turntable, also belt drive. It was far superior in all ways, especially after I added a Walker motor control, using the very same triplanar tonearm. I just think the sapphire is not a good choice for a paradigm. I do not mean by this to demean all of the Sota turntables. As I understand it, they have made some major improvements since the sapphire was their flag ship product.
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tubelvr1, the characteristic that is most noticeable in turntables is noise either self generated or from the environment. Most modern turntables have reasonable speed stability. The way the cartridge performs is determined by the tonearm. The tonearm has to be the right mass for the cartridge and it must give the cartridge only two degrees of freedom, up and down, side to side. Any other freedom particularly torsional is bad. There are other fine points of tonearm design that are also important. The way the anti skate is set up. It should decrease as the tonearm moves towards the center of the record. A neutral balance arm is always best. Most arms are Static balance which is worse. You can tell right away what an arm is. Defeat the anti skate and put the stylus guard on. Balance the arm so it stays perfectly horizontal then lift the head shell up an inch and let go. A neutral balance arm will stay there and inch up. A static balance arm will bounce up and down eventually finding the balance point.
Will you hear a difference? Depends on your system and how critical you are. There is definitely a point of diminishing returns. Get a SOTA Sapphire. Put an Origin Live Enterprise arm on it and you are 95% of the way to the best turntable made. Whatever that is:) |
The turntable can make a large difference. I just upgraded from my old Rega Planar 2 to a Technics SL1210GR. I’ve kept the same cartridge and everything else is the same also. So much less surface noise and overall cleaner sound. Right, because Rega is an awful overpriced belt-drive turntable. Your GR has a coreless Direct Drive motor, heavy cabinet, excellent and fully adjustable tonearm with detachable headshell and all this just for $1700. How you can upgrade your cartridge on Technics and the difference will be huge compared to the difference you have noticed between belt drive TT and proper DD. |
Hi,
the better table will always give a more enjoyable sound, a beter cartridge will have a more refined sound of table's limitations. |
Funny when ole James Kirk can’t remember his own advice - look into Soundsmith..... |
Rega is a good choice but there are others see Brinkmann, Kuzma, AMG, etc for integrated packages, including tailored HRS isolation bases. |
Competence in bearings and isolation is easy compared to changing one kind of energy into another....don’t shortchange the cartridge, and buy a rebuildable cartridge and it will be worth more than zero... Captain Kirk flunked math.... |
I run a 43 year old DD table. Paid $45 for it 10 years ago. Cleaned and completely restored it. It’s competent in every way for speed, rumble, arm, suspension, etc.
Ive used a Decca Gold, Dynavector, various Ortofons, ATs, Shure, ADCs, Empires, Excels, Stanton’s, Pickerings, Koetsu, and others. All the carts have a unique sound, and performed flawlessly. The table and arm are not the limiting factors to great sound, as long as the table/arm are competent. |
There really is no difference in terms of pure performance. For every $2500 or whatever on a cart you can find $2500 in a turntable that will be a virtual tie in delivering sound quality. Where the difference comes in is over the long term. Your $2500 (or whatever, numbers aren't the point) cartridge will in 5 years (or whatever, numbers aren't the point) be worth zero. Your $2500 turntable on the other hand will be worth, well who knows? But not zero! Could even be worth more. You never know. Point is, one is a consumable, and one is not.
So in my book if you are gonna go big it pays to go big on the table. Because then in five or ten when you replace the starter cartridge the better one you buy will be going on a better table. Where if you spent the money on the cart the next cart will be going on the lesser table.
So these questions are like games where only Kirk (as played by millercarbon) knows enough to reprogram the game to win the no-win scenario. |
The turntable can make a large difference. I just upgraded from my old Rega Planar 2 to a Technics SL1210GR. I've kept the same cartridge and everything else is the same also. So much less surface noise and overall cleaner sound. |
As long as your turntable has the following figures:
rumble < 75 - 78 db,
wow & flutter as low as possible,
speed stability better than about 1%
and as long as your tonearm effective mass is a good match for your cartridge,
here are the approximate importance of the components:
turntable: 10%
tonearm: 10%
cartridge: 40%
phono amp: 40%
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Curious to still see this question 40 years later.
1) the most critical quality to a turntable is its ability to turn a record without imparting or passing through vibration to the record and tonearm.A poorer turntable will collapse dynamics and raise the perceived noise level of a record surface because of vibration transmitted and superimposed on the record groove signal. Another name for this attribute is resolution
2) a tonearm must track rigidly and accurately while encountering variations in the X and Y axis's due to record imperfections in hole centering and record height. Bearing friction should allow slow movement across the record but damp oscillation at higher speeds... if you see the head of your tonearm quivering during routine record playback thats a problem
3) cartridges are analogous to speakers, the patent determines their "house" sound, the stylus quality determines the limit of resolution in
that family
Its is far better to focus your investment on the turntable,get a reasonably competent tonearm and use something like aninexpensive Grado cartridge.
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Just get a Rega where everything is chosen for you to optimize performance. They take all the guess work out and eliminate making costly mistakes by limiting the constant mix and match, and allowing you to focus on the rest of your system.
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A turntable can make a HUGE difference. A tone arm can make a HUGE difference
about 5 years ago I heard a pricey VPI table fitted with a $300 cartridge. That set up was spectacular. Another time I heard a table with a cartridge that was way more expensive that the table. Disappointing- I knew that cartridge was capable of better |
The turntable is the thing. Fine turntable and modest cartridge easily outperform the reverse. |
IMO you have to divide operational criteria into two categories one for things that are absolutely necessary for proper performance and the second is for sound preference.
#1, speed stability, vibration control, and motor insulation/location (so it doesn't induce hum from the cartridge - not absolutely critical but it can certainly limit your cartridge selection. Get the best TT you can afford. A good one should last a lifetime with minimal fuss.
Tone arm selection is equally important and cartridge matching even more so but easier to obtain.
#2, Cartridge selection, phono preamp selection, phono cable selection all affect mostly the sound. BUT their set up is critical so keep your system as simple as possible. One thing that, for me anyway, is critical, is the incorporation of capacitance selection in the pre-amp otherwise you have effectively limited cartridge selection to MM types.
So I agree with big_greg. To keep the cost moderate, and selection simple, I would start out with a high quality integrated TT/Arm in the first place where experts have already taken care of the matching issues, and focus on the cartridge/preamp, cables etc, which are easily changed as your tastes change over the years.
FWIW setting up a good vinyl system ain't rocket science but it ain't a walk in the park either. Do a LOT of research first.
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I'd rather spend 80% on the turntable and 20% on the cartridge, than flipping those numbers around, but they both matter. The 5.1 is a decent turntable, but you'll get more out of your cartridge if you invest in a better platform. On the other hand, if you buy an expensive cartridge and put it on that table, you'll never experience what the cartridge is capable of. |
+1
chaksterThe most important is cartridge + tonearm combination. IMO The second most important is Phono preamp |
Well you have what $1000 tt $700 cart box $300...2000 .Which is pretty dam good set up.Go with a MC cart.if you want a different sound .Try a different brand of cart.But.if you go by what you heard about spending division you have done it.... |
If you want to use your cartridge on some other turntable:
The most important is cartridge + tonearm combination.
In my opinion you have to get rid of that entry level mmf 5.1 turntable but you can keep using your good Ortofon cartridge.
Look for $1700 brand new Technics SL1200GR turntable, find a shop to try it and you will understand why there is a huge difference between turntables, especially between cheap belt drive and coreless direct drive motors.
Technics tonearm is fine for your cartridge.
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How much difference does a turntable really make compared to the cartridge? A lot. Will I hear a significant difference if I upgraded my turntable and kept the same cartridge? Yes. Isn’t the cartridge 90%+ of the sound from a vinyl setup? Yes. It is. The turntable is only 90%. Oh, and the phono stage. A good phono stage is 90%. At least. Tone arm, 90%. By my count that's 360%- which coincidentally is exactly how much better analog is than digital. |
