Excellent advice and information, thank you to all.
I am thinking to go with isolated hospital receptacles on
a dedicated line with 12/3 wire. I will use one of the shielded wires as the ground (rapped in green tape at the ends) so as to pick up less, if any, interference as compared to the bare ground wire. Using the Isolated H.S.
grade receptacles will finish the isolated route and offer
a secure and tight fit at the wall. Does this make sense and sound correct ? Is a seperate ground, at the breaker box, needed for the isolation process to be complete for the dedicated line ?
Please keep the info coming. We are almost there ! |
Buy yourself a bunch of Porterports and use them. Nobody has ever complained/regretted buying them. |
Drobbins is right,
Tighter is better!!!! In so many things.
If you've ever plugged something into an old outlet, and had sparks shoot out,that's what a less than tight fit will do.I really feel the connections do more than the wire itself, providing the wire is a proper gage to begin with.
Let the battle continue. |
Maybe I'm missing something, but among all of the posts that I've read by those who report scientific data to insist that PC's and outlets don't make any difference, I don't recall anyone saying, "I've tried, XYZ $50 cord against XYZ $600-1000 cords (or outlets), and found no audible difference in the sound." Just curious, but isn't scientific theory confirmed by lab work these days? |
Hi everyone,
Receptacles can definitely make a difference. Hospital grade receptacles grip *tighter* for safe use in oxygen-rich environments (like hospitals where they often pump oxygen into people.) Tighter connection = better energy transfer.
Tighter is better -- if you have an electric stove, put a kettle on a burner (turned to high) and wait for it to boil. When it starts to make that pre-boiling sound, apply pressure to the top of the kettle, pushing down. The sound will get louder. By applying pressure, you improved the contact from the burner to the kettle, and you can hear the difference. Your water will boil a lot faster if you keep pressing down on the kettle.
Similar principles apply to receptacles. If this weren't the case then hifi equipment designers wouldn't need to solder anything -- they could just make sure that the ends of their wires sorta touch. Of course they don't do that because they know that the quality of the contact is important. |
11-12-04: Jburidan
Here's a plausible explanation as to why power cords make a difference:
It's my understanding that standard wiring for 15 amp house circuits is 14 AWG with three conductors. Many components come with detachable cheap 18 AWG power cords with molded connectors. The 18 AWG cords can present a bottleneck between house wiring and a component's internal wiring. Whether one hears a difference with thicker wires, depends on the quality of the component's internal wiring. High quality amplifiers may use anywhere from 14 to 8 AWG internally. In that case, common sense tells me that better cables will make a noticeable difference.
No difference unless the component draws enough current so that 18ga power cord heats up, increases in resistance, and therefore lowers the available voltage to the component. 18ga might not be enough for a Krell KMA-100, but for most Class AB amps you'd have to drive them really hard to make an 18ga power cord the limiter. It'll be more of a fire hazard than a hazard to bad sound quality. I'm not recommending 18ga power cords, but in reality for a 6ft length with most components there won't be a difference, except in our heads. :) |
As someone already said, ANOTHER one of these 'I can't hear it so it doesn't exist' guys.
I personally cannot hear lots of differences others can hear. That doesn't mean those differences don't exist. I believe it's the height of egotistical arrogance to believe that if it can't be measured, it doesn't exist, and some engineers are that arrogant. Reminds me of the medical practitioners of decades ago.
Obviously some claims made by designers/sellers are bogus; most aren't. ALL deserve to be viewed sceptically...to be investigated one by one, by anyone with ears. Just as some systems resolve more information than others, some PEOPLE can hear some differences others can't.
I believe that EVERY change makes an audible difference. It's up to each of us to determine which of those differences are significant..."audible"...and which aren't. Saying they can't exist really doesn't help.
. |
11-12-04: Swklein
Another pointless battle between those who hear differences and those who don't- which has to depend, I have come to believe, not on differences of hearing but on the resolution and nature of the equipment used.
Hmmm... My equipment is mid-line. An ML39 feeding a Sony TA-E1, driving twin ML334's vertically biamping a pair of Legacy Focus. Pretty good resolution, though below, say, Maggie 20.1's, IMO. Still, better than a boombox. |
Believing you hear a difference is not proof. I'm not personally a fan of using double-blind testing to figure out what makes a difference (taking such a test is so annoying I think it masks differences), but I think it is necessary to have at least a vague theory about why some change will make a difference. This is where special outlets, power cords, plugs, and the like, fail the test.
Electricity is not a mystery. Not even a little bit. Electrical behavior is not like biology. There aren't any new phenomena being observed. This has nothing to do with quantum physics, no similarity with the origins of life... electrical engineering is not a field where the fundamentals are poorly understood. I hate to break this to you, but the very existence of microchips proves that electrical behavior is understood to a very, very high level. We know how electrons behave at stupendously low current levels, very high frequencies, and with every known conductor, and this audio and AC power stuff is simplistic by comparison.
There is no known way that there can be a difference between two electrical outlets, both with similar resistance (like, effectively zero for any properly functioning outlet), sufficient to alter the current flow in any meaningful way. Forget EMI. That's microvolts compared to 110-120v from the wall. Six to eight orders of magnitude difference? The length of the current path and the amount of metal involved is small enough that any reasonable copper alloy will be nearly perfect. Even silver would only make a 5% conductance difference within the outlet, but within the total context of the mains circuit path that 5% would be inconsequential. (And it ain't 5% of volts, so that if silver is 100v copper would be 95v. It's a 5% increase in resistance, and since V=current x resistance, and current is large and the resistance of copper is so small to begin with, the overall difference is very small.)
I'm sorry guys, but what you are professing, that there are differences in sonics due to different properly functioning conductors in the mains power path, is unreasonable. Asserting there are differences because you think you hear them is not only bad science, it's just plain provably wrong. I don't care that there are companies or seemingly expert people in the industry that say there are differences, there aren't. They can't explain why those differences would occur, and electricity ain't a mystery.
There are things I've purchased where I've definitely exhibited having more money than sense. For my amps I made power cords using 12/3 Carol cable and Marinco plugs and IECs. They're the right length and the plugs sure do look cool, and 12/3 looks nice and thick. Overkill, oh yeah. Difference in sound over the molded cords that came with the amps? Nope. There's 119v measured at the outlet and at the IEC end of the power cord. That's all that's important. Those big old transformers in the amp are going to change everything anyway. If you want to justify high-end power stuff because it looks cool or feels cool... I'm into it. But to argue there's a "sonic signature"? You're kidding yourselves. You might as well pray to idols for better sound. |
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Here's a plausible explanation as to why power cords make a difference:
It's my understanding that standard wiring for 15 amp house circuits is 14 AWG with three conductors. Many components come with detachable cheap 18 AWG power cords with molded connectors. The 18 AWG cords can present a bottleneck between house wiring and a component's internal wiring. Whether one hears a difference with thicker wires, depends on the quality of the component's internal wiring. High quality amplifiers may use anywhere from 14 to 8 AWG internally. In that case, common sense tells me that better cables will make a noticeable difference.
BTW: Recommend you check out Pinnacle power cords made by Panamax. They have excellent specs for the money. I found them surfing the web...
Best regards,
Jay
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In response to Irv,
I'm not saying that physics doesn't matter. And I'm not a scientist-- although I am a professor, and therefore used to thinking skeptically, and demanding proof from myself and from my students in our work in the humanities. And heck if I know why some outlets (and power conditioners, and power cords) sound different. But the fact is, they do (at least through my Audio Research electronics, Vandersteens, and good cabling: your equipment might reveal more or fewer of these differences. Some equipment, including very, very good equipment, doesn't change much when altering peripherals). And not a little, and not subtley. You don't have to be a true believer, or a crank. This is audible, and easily audible, to people who don't care one way or the other (such as my wife). In my case, FIM outlets were too dark sounding for the associated equipment-- a phenomenon many others attest to independantly-- and Wattgates were much clearer and brighter (the same applies). As with so many other things in science, one notices the phenomenon first, and then hopes to find the the underlying mechanism that explains it. Although we try to pretend it isn't, much medical research is based upon this fact. |
Another pointless battle between those who hear differences and those who don't- which has to depend, I have come to believe, not on differences of hearing but on the resolution and nature of the equipment used. In my case, Wattgates and FIM outlets sound different from one another in easily described ways, and better than stock, by far. No competition, no subtle differences, night and day stuff. In my experience, too, although not with outlets, I don't like the sound of cryo'd components: they tend, consistently, to sound more forward, with less air around images, than stock versions of the same. It's a matter of taste. |
To those that say outlets (or power cords, or plugs) have a sonic signature... how do you believe this happens? You have many, many feet of 12-14ga Romex (or equivalent) in your house. Some of you have aluminum wires. Then you assume that the termination of all of that simple, cheap wiring at the outlet, as compared to a different termination (that can be shown to have inconsequential resistance), has a sonic signature? This is akin to astrology. I have no doubt that some people believe they hear differences, but the far and away most likely scenario is that there are no differences between outlets (that function properly within their specs), no sonic differences attributable to cryogenics, and that same reasoning can be extended to power cords with reasonable gauges for the loads involved. The difference you think you hear isn't real. It's in your head and nowhere else.
Even if you assume, just for the point of argument, that there is a difference in sonics that could happen between outlets, how would that difference survive the voltage step-down of the component's power transformer? Or the rectification to DC? Or the capacitors? Before all of those electrons hit any sort of active circuitry?
Doesn't this seem unreasonable? Did all of you sleep during high school physics? I'm assuming there's no one arguing here that even vaguely understands electrical engineering... |
Check out PS Audio outlets, they are the best I have seen. |
If power receptacles make a difference (and I doubt it) you would be better off using ones designed for high current high voltage applications, like you stove or clothes dryer. These have contacts with much greater contact area, and some have a twist-to-lock feature that provides a wiping action for the contacts. |
Contrary to the respondent a couple posts above, power cords and receptacles do make a difference. If you can, I would chase down on A'gon some of the "Porter Ports" that member Albert Porter was kind enough to make available. I have one and it did make a difference. Reasonably priced too.
Good luck, |
Almost all hospital grades (with the exception of the 20 amp Hubbell hospital grade sold by Albert Porter and Take Five Audio) have nickel plated contacts, which I would suggest you avoid. In that respect, you are best to stick with a spec grade receptacle. My personal preference, not having heard the non-plated Hubbell above, would be either a Hubbell 5262 or 5362. I have doubts as to whether I would be able to differentiate between those receptacles.
Different receptacles have very different sonic signatures, and cryo will make a significant difference IMO. |
I use Wattgate and even my wife heard the difference. So to answer your question high end plugs will improve your audio and video presentation. As for brands like any thing else you may want to experiment and determine for your self
Hope this helps |
The only difference between standard outlets and hospital-grade outlets is how tightly they grip the blades of the plug. High-end outlets, plugs, and power cords have no advantage - none - over standard equipment of the same capacity except that they look better and feel better. The rest is in people's minds. There are no measurable differences. Not a one. Cryogenics means nothing to power lines. Not a thing.
You've already done the right thing by running dedicated 20A lines. It might help (but only a little bit) if you keep the amps and other components on separate circuits, and only due to potential voltage sags. Some people think digital components put garbage on the power circuits, but I've never seen one measurement to prove it.
One exception might be power line filtering, if you have a problem with noise or spikes. Isolation transformers and the like can sometimes make a difference, especially for source components, but most people don't live in areas with a problem. My advice is to get a dealer to loan you the equipment for a day or two. If there's an obvious improvement, buy it. If not, save your money.
Don't waste too much money on powercord-related stuff. Save your money for better speakers, acoustical treatments, amps, and source components (probably in that order). Those are the things that make a difference. Use your head and reason, don't just read advertising and bogus magazine reviews. How could an outlet provide such a superior connection that water boiled 20% faster? That's poppycock. Put on your thinking cap. |
Hubbell and FIM are both excellent.
However, it's sonically more beneficial to go with which ever receptacle has been cryogenically treated.
-IMO |
UHF magazine put it this way : when they put a high-end plug on their electric kettle, the water boiled 20 per cent faster.
High-grade plugs and receptacles improve the power transfer to your equipment. You have to decide whether the gain is worth it to you. I have always been able to hear the difference myself. |
