In Defense of Audiophiles, Bose, Pass, Toole and Science


I don’t know why I look at Audio Science Reviews equipment reviews, they usually make me bang my head against my desk. The claims they make of being scientific is pretty half-baked. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate measurements, and the time it takes to conduct them, along with insights into the causes, but judging all electronics based on 40+ year old measurements which have not really become closer to explaining human perception and enjoyment, they claim to be objective scientists. They are not. Let me tell you some of the people who are:

  1. Bose
  2. Harman
  3. Nelson Pass
  4. Floyd Toole


This may look like a weird list, but here is what all these have in common: They strive to link together human perception and enjoyment of a product to measurements. Each have taken a decidedly different, but very successful approach. They’ve each asked the question differently. I don’t always agree with the resulting products, but I can’t deny that their approach is market based and scientific.


Floyd Toole’s writing on room tuning, frequency response and EQ combines exact measurements with human perception, and as big a scientist as he is he remains skeptical of measurements, and with good reasons.


The process Nelson Pass uses is exactly right. His hypothesis is that a certain type of distortion, along with other important qualities, are what make for a great sounding amp, and lets face it, the process, and his effectiveness cannot be denied as not being scientific or financially successful. Far more scientific than designing or buying an amp based on THD% at 1 watt alone.


Bose is also very very scientific, but they come at the problem differently. Their question is: What is the least expensive to manufacture product we can make given what most consumers actually want to hear?" Does it work? They have 8,000 employees and approximately $4B in sales per Forbes:


https://www.forbes.com/companies/bose/#1926b3a81c46


Honestly, I don’t know how your average Bose product would measure, but you don’t get to these numbers without science. Assuming they measure poorly, doesn’t that mean measurements are all wrong?


The work Harman has done in getting listening panels together, and trying out different prototypes while adhering to previous science is also noteworthy. Most notably and recently with their testing of speaker dispersion which has resulted in the tweeter wave guides in the latest Revel speakers. They move science forward with each experiment, and then put that out into their products.


Regardless of the camp you fall into, crusty old measurements, perception measurements or individual iconoclast, we also must account for person to person variability. It’s been shown for instance that most people have poor sensitivity to phase shifts in speakers (like me), but if you are THAT person who has severe sensitivity to it, then all those studies don’t mean a thing.


My point is, let’s not define science as being purely in the domain of an oscilloscope. Science is defined by those who push the boundaries forward, and add to our understanding of human perception as well as electron behavior through a semi-conductor and air pressure in a room. If it’s frozen in 40 year old measurements, it’s not science, it's the worship of a dead icon.


Best,


E

erik_squires
erik_squires,

"..unless you have previously worked to establish those were desirable."


Could not agree more, but isn’t that what Toole, Olive and co have been doing at Harman for the past 30 years or so?

Furthermore as some have mentioned here before, isn’t it high time the consumers were given all the data available to later make of it what they will?

ps whoopycat,

I checked out the stats table but it may as well have been written in another language. LeBron was the only recognisable name.
Could not agree more, but isn’t that what Toole, Olive and co have been doing at Harman for the past 30 years or so?

It seems I am defending a point I’ve never made, which is that no one does audio science.


Of course big corps are using science to drive product development, but we in the consumer side should not assume that a handful of tests alone should determine the desirability of a product. The only reason to buy a DAC based on measurements alone is if you are building test equipment, or using a DAC to drive motors.


If you plan on listening to a DAC at home this is foolish and lacks the scientific merit you think it does.



Best,
E

Which one of these is the one that made me choose the speakers in my living room system?

"• On-axis frequency response
• Impulse response
• Cumulative spectral decay
• Polar response
• Step response
• Impedance
• Efficiency/Sensitivity
• Distortion
• Dynamics"

Or maybe it was some combination of those.  If that's the case perhaps someone could share how they are weighted and what the metric is (was) for establishing that.
in basketball, one thing I can tell you is that stats are very deceiving.
just listen to announcers give credit to players that do things that never show up on stat sheet.  however, measuring human players performance is vastly different than measuring equipment that humans then react to the output.
So Erik, perhaps testing using a panel of 10 judges (made up of responders to your thread) listening to an unidentified speaker and using a 1 to 10 rating card.  You end up with results like  "speaker X got a rating of 89 out of 100 by our blind panel".  What does that mean? maybe as much as the scientific measurements.  
whoah! wait a minute..."blind Panel" - that's it! when you lose one of your senses the others become stronger or more acute?

regarding Bose, when I heard the 901's, they sounded muffled as if the speakers were in the room next door. however, when I got an Acura Legend with a 6 speaker Bose set up, it bested ANY sound system I heard home or car till that time.  The Bose system in my Infinity sounded like crap. the Bose system in my MB sounded like crap ( typical one note bass).  so my feeling about Bose is that they fit the need for such a large audience so well, why argue with their success.  As for their science, they didn't achieve this success by accident.

larryrs,

"Which one of these is the one that made me choose the speakers in my living room system?

"• On-axis frequency response
• Impulse response
• Cumulative spectral decay
• Polar response
• Step response
• Impedance
• Efficiency/Sensitivity
• Distortion
• Dynamics"

Or maybe it was some combination of those. If that’s the case perhaps someone could share how they are weighted and what the metric is (was) for establishing that."


Only you might know which one made you choose your speakers.

I think they all matter, even if I’m not exactly sure what step response is without googling it first.

Different designers will weigh these factors differently, and that’s why speakers don’t sound the same, but why wouldn’t anyone want to buy a loudspeaker with exemplary measurements?

They’re not the final word by any means but they might be a great starting point.

You know I think it’s a bit like stats for cars. As far as I’m concerned most of them already have acceptable 0-60 times, but what I want to see is long term reliability and cabin noise data (also battery range for all-electrics).

These matter more to me than acceleration and top speed, but they all matter.