@stringreen, ’cd-18......that’s exactly what I did....got that dealer setup manual, the device to put the table on so that I could get under easily to adjust the springs, etc. Was quite good at it...lots of experience.’ Brave man. It’s not for everyone, and lord help you if you’ve picked up a dud. Personally I wouldn’t touch one with a pre-2003 top plate. One of the top experts in setting up this challenging deck seems to be Peter Swain of Cymbiosis who have very generously made his excellent set up guides available here. These are not only been updated but are infinitely more useful than the original set-up guides. https://www.cymbiosis.com/downloads/ |
Everyone should be happy....enjoy
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I worshipped my LP12- had it for 15 years. Used it with a number of cartridges and phono preamps but the last it was running with was a Lyra Delos through a ASR Basis Exclusive. I wasn't thrilled with the sound at the end and went to have it re-setup but the Linn guy had passed away so I tried to set it up myself and had zero luck and sold the table. All that said, when I finally ended up with a Well Tempered Amadeus, I found that I preferred the sound of the new table by a large margin and I was able to easliy set it up myself! |
cd-18......that's exactly what I did....got that dealer setup manual, the device to put the table on so that I could get under easily to adjust the springs, etc. Was quite good at it...lots of experience.
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Lewn... the Morgan analogy is absolutely perfect. This brought up my vision of when I got my pilots license. The chief FAA guy at Teterborough airport in NJ drove a Morgan...a guy I could never hope to be as cool. ..just about a month ago, I happened into the local Bently dealer because he had a Morgan for sale on his used car lot. Still looking for cool, I drove it, and as I inched my way through the Scottsdale traffic, I imagined I was tearing through the English countryside....Alas, at the close of my auto adventure, I realized that my Porsche gave me the thrills I was looking for, and also realized I still couldn't be as cool as my flight instructor Lou Ranley.....who must now be flying among the stars.
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@cd318 It is pretty clear by now that you are no Linn fan. Whether you owned a Linn LP12 or not, you still insist on trying to naysay the table.
You state "Linn are possibly one of the most maligned companies in audio today" ---Yes, because of folks like YOU! |
@stringreen,
’If you leave the setup to a pro.....by you bring it home, it will need another adjustment’
Unfortunately, that was my experience too. In the end I got a setup manual from Linn and decided to do the job myself. Many others did similarly, but I wouldn’t recommend it - especially if yours has one with a defective top plate.
All Linn LP12 promo threads run the risk of former disgruntled dissatisfied owners speaking up.
And there’s more than a few...
Linn are possibly one of the most maligned companies in audio today. They no longer seem to have the power to court /coerce reviewers and dealers as they once did.
They couldn’t even be bothered to support their own UK forum for their customers. Now it’s just left to one or two diehard fans.
Yet they were once one of the most admired.
With their strategy of endlessly fleecing their loyal customer base with a stolen design they didn’t really do themselves any favours, did they?
Even if the current LP12 is a much more stable and consistent design than it was, and there’s little assurance of that, then it still faces an entirely different level of competition than it once did.
On the plus side, we should see a continued gradual falling in used prices to bring it within reach of any of those who might have wondered what the fuss was all about.
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High end audio is concerned with signal to noise ratio. Unfortunately this thread has tons of it...
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If you leave the setup to a pro.....by you bring it home, it will need another adjustment
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@stringreen YAWN. That myth has been disillusioned decades ago...which was when you last owned an LP12. |
Mine always went out of adjustment (try bouncing the springs to see if they all work as one)
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@mre28m5 Not the way to go with regards to the Tranq, IMO. If one wants to end up with the Karousel, why blow money on the Tranq? which is NOT compatible with a Karousel. Simply better to save the money and put it towards the Karousel. According to everyone who i have spoken to that owns a Tranq and now owns the Karousel, the Karousel is a major step up in SQ. |
I tried my Arche headshell and it was too heavy. the LH 4000 produced better results with which I was surprised. |
Hi, @coachpoconnor I really like the Tiger-Paw Audio Tranquility. It is still available. For about 1/3 the cost of a Karousel the TPT does make the Linn sound more articulate and “fresher.” The TPT takes only an hour or two to set up. ( Most of the time is spent with a stopwatch observing the platter spin down. ) It doesn’t require suspension adjustment. I think the Karousel is where you want to end up. However, the TPT gives you a nice SQ improvement if you’re not quite ready to spring for the Karousel. ( Linn pun? ) Something to consider. I installed a pair of Dereneville Magic Headsell Mats. ( $125 ) I observed a 3 dB lowering of background noise after installing these little mats. I also use the Dereneville platter mat. ( $225 ) Just one of many good mats out there. http://www.vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10845&p=47553&hilit=More+on+electrical+tape#...On the VPI Forum search for “more on electrical tape.” People report improved low level detail. The originator of the modification can hear a difference on a Linn through the stock felt mat. ( FREE ) I also rewired my arm with Cardas Clear wire direct to my preamp, eliminating a few connections and some very old wire. I consider the above to be successful upgrades, some or all of which might not be of interest. And I’m saving up for a Karousel. Good Luck and Have Fun |
I have been away from this party but it seems to me that if you use the OEM tonearm on the 1200G to run a 103, you would have to find some way to add mass, like a hefty aftermarket headshell, if you hope to get the most out of the cartridge. I've been using an 18g Ortofon LH9000 headshell with my Koetsu Urushi with excellent results, for one example. But maybe you'd want something even heavier.
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I can tell you that the Denon 103 sounds fantastic on the 1200G. shockingly good. you have a good plan there. |
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@coachpoconnor Good to hear that you acquired a nice Linn LP12.
As to upgrades, the next upgrade for your table would be the bearing, going from the Cirkus to the new Karousel. The bearing is probably the most important part of the TT.
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As the originator of this thread, I’d like to inform everyone that I did purchase an LP-12 for $2300,00. My friend came over with the Linn and we played the same albums on the Marantz tt15 and the Linn, with the Hana SL cartridge. The difference in bass, warmth and detail was obvious. Except for the Technics, no one else really came up with viable alternative for $2300.00. I’m thinking of buying a Techncs in the future for my Denon DL103.
I’ve playing Albums continuously, since.
Thanks for everyone’s comments. I’d also be interested in Learning about successful Linn upgrades. |
@photomax +1. Unfortunately, like many threads about the LP12, there are always a lot of folks who have no issue with posting--total nonsense! Doesn't stop them from putting their 2 cents in nonetheless. |
To say that Gilad (the son of Linn’s founder) has no interest in their LP12 tables is total nonsense. I went to an event last spring and listened to Gilad and another team member do a 30 min presentation (the first in the world) on the new Karousel bearing. These guys exhibited excitement and passion for this thing. It was all they talked about. I got to talk to him for like ten mins afterword. Very cool guy!
They had two Klimax level LP12s which were identical except the one had the new Karousel. Played through Exakt Akubarik speakers. The sound was amazing. Way out of my price league but still. The new bearing did bring much to the table. I also listened to several other tables at this invite only event in the $20K range and I preferred the Linn. |
12-17-2018 2:33pm Interesting to compare the setups in the two factories! "While recent sales of new turntables have been between 300 and 700 per year, Linn tells us the higher proportion of sales is attributed to upgrades. Owners can send their decades-old LP12 to the Linn factory to be upgraded to current day specification – yes, even those purchased over 40 years ago. www.whathifi.com/features/making-linn-sondek-lp12 With such a small yearly production, I am not surprised there are so few dealers and that Linn has taken over their distribution in the US. Technics makes more turntables in two weeks than Linn makes in a year! www.whathifi.com/features/the-making-of-technics-sl-1000r |
I feel you as the young folks say. Veblen or diminished return I'm staying put unless the change/upgrade is mouth dropping, which right or wrong is my criteria for establishing value. I have only had a couple of these over the years: the first time I heard the Keel, a Boulder Pre-Amp, The Watt Puppy, and Mye Stands on Maggies to name a few.
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@atmasphere The Veblen effect you mention is certainly a very important aspect when it comes to high end audio. I have spoken to several manufacturers who have told me outright that they are required to either a) have a high price on their wares or b) increase the price across their range, in order to appeal to a certain type of buyer. This has nothing to do with the value, and everything to do with the marketing- and their rep’s insistence. Problem is, for those folk, who I count myself one of, the actual ability to acquire the piece and truly enjoy it is diminished. Additionally, the consumer who shops solely on price is likely to get tired quickly of their acquisition and always be unsure of what it is that they bought...another er, psychological, effect. Happens in a number of hobbies and endeavors, unfortunately this one being one of the most prevalent .
BTW, there is a well known US amp manufacturer who has recently just about doubled his pricing across his range, due to exactly what you describe. His just acquired marketing manager is behind this..same exact product, now twice the price...in order to appeal to his hoped for new audience!! |
Value for money is not, it would seem, high on most high end
manufacturer's list. Not to say there are not a few companies that do
offer value for money, but they do seem to be the exception, and not the
rule, IME.
Probably a big part of this issue, is that there simply
isn't a big enough audience in the hobby to insure that through mass
production an acceptable profit is realized; therefore leading to a
maximization of profit per unit sold...which means the value for money
equation is similarly negatively impacted. IMO. There is something called the Veblen Effect, where more expensive is often perceived as offering more value. This is common in high end products. An excellent example is Campagnolo, who makes bicycle components. During the 1970s a Japanese company called Sun Tour came up with a derailleur system than was better in every way than Campy units and because the former were built to a price formula rather than what the market would bear, were a lot cheaper than the latter and so found their way onto lessor expensive bike frames. Part of the Veblen Effect is simply that more expensive doesn't mean its actually better. If you can find a piece priced to a formula rather than what the market will bear, you're likely to get a better deal. Technics is one example of that, and they built their new turntables in sufficient quantity that they are considerably less expensive than the competion that performs at the same level. Another way to think about this is what would a Technics SL1200 cost if built by a small company with only 4 employees, and maybe only in quantities of 10 rather than 1000? The answer is probably 'about 3-4 times more'... |
@xagwell The cost of the last 10-15% is always much higher than the average in audio. Whether it is worth it is another question and only answered by the individual consumer. I would agree that with some of the Linn upgrades the cost is high compared to the result, but that can be said for just about everything in this hobby. Value for money is not, it would seem, high on most high end manufacturer's list. Not to say there are not a few companies that do offer value for money, but they do seem to be the exception, and not the rule, IME.
Probably a big part of this issue, is that there simply isn't a big enough audience in the hobby to insure that through mass production an acceptable profit is realized; therefore leading to a maximization of profit per unit sold...which means the value for money equation is similarly negatively impacted. IMO. |
I've have owned my LP-12 for 20+ years and have followed the upgrade path with Cirkus, Ekos, Trampolin II, and Lingo etc.. I started with the OC 9, then Benz Glider, to a Shelter 90x. I have toyed with the idea of changing tables over the years but I have stayed focused on the the audio outcome evaluated with my ears and not the "on paper" technical stuff. That said I have not experienced anything that provided a huge improvement in sound that was worth the additional financial outlay. That said a Linn with a Keel has a Class A rating when I last read Stereophile as did tables costing far, far more. I probably have attained 90-95% of what's possible so the cost of attaining the last 5% just is no longer worth it to me. The only reason for me to get a new table will be simply because I want one!
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Davey, I meant no disrespect to Linn or those who love the LP12. Nor is the analogy to a Morgan sports car in any way meant to be insulting; I just thought it was a better metaphor among auto metaphors, compared to using Ferrari as the paradigm. As for an analogy to tube-based electronics, you have a point, I suppose. I'm fine with that.
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Personal experience- any newer Linn by which I mean made in the last 25 years is a pretty stable machine that is not prone to go out of adjustment.
Setup is key and unfortunately, at least in the US, competent Linn people are few and far between. I’m lucky that I live within an hour of a legit Linn expert.
As as far as maintaining the table- bringing it in once every five years for a tune up seems pretty reasonable to me.
Are there better tables? Sure, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that those better tables really are any more enjoyable. The reality is that the LP12 really isn’t any one table- it’s a family of tables. |
@lewm Interesting perspective...now what is your analogy to the many tube amps that are on the market? |
I don’t want to pile on top of the heap of LP 12 naysayers, but I guess I will in a way. Regarding the metaphor comparing the LP 12 to a Ferrari, I would say it is more apt to compare the LP 12 to a Morgan sports car. Still doggedly being built in the same way it was built, out of wood, in the 1930s, but with occasional upgrades to make it faster and stiffer. Yet for those who adore it, Morgan sports cars continue to give a great deal of fun and pleasure. That’s the only thing that counts in the end.
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@cd318 Like I stated in my prior post, I'm sure this is falling on deaf ears, but I would like to know how you know so much about what is, or is not, happening at Linn? Particularly when it comes to Gilad?
When Ivor first designed the table, it clearly could be bettered, over time. Linn have always offered a path to an improved version...how many other table manufacturer's from that era, or even today, offer this same aspect. Please do not tell me that there were perfect turntable designs out there back in the day that needed no upgrades...
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Linn aren’t going to rebut anything! Ivor’s son Gilad who now runs Linn (though his dad came back as ’advisor’) has never shown any interest in the LP12 or even turntables in general. I wouldn’t be too surprised if he sends out the kill order sometime in the near future. I’m guessing it’s just the revenue from the various add-ons and upgrades that are keeping it afloat and the accountants at bay - for now. For sure it’s a nice deck and is kind of iconic, but it started off with a terrible cheap motor and comparatively poor speed control, issues they’ve been addressing ever since. Nearly all LP12s out there still have two other serious problems, and where is the fix? The first is the way Linn chose to attach its arms to the sub-chassis - the structurally disastrous armboard. The need for absolute structural integrity between the bearing and the arm pillar was long known. So why did it take Linn so long to address this issue (Keel £2600 /Kore £800) themselves. And what about the cost? And why do it twice? Is there going to be a third effort, or even a fourth? Rega seem to have tackled this issue in a far more economical fashion with its metal top brace. Here’s another reminder of its importance from the creator of this design. https://youtu.be/OOlAua3tBSwThe second, more intractable one is the issue of a floating 3 point sub-chassis attached to a motor via a rubber belt and a thick arm cable. Just how do you intend to ever improve stability and speed accuracy without a truly radical overhaul? May I suggest a direct drive motor mounted underneath the floating sub-chassis that would do away with the outdated belt attached motor? I don’t know if you remember but Linn used to claim that belt drives were superior because the rubber would would isolate some of the AC motor vibrations. Well, it looks as if that concept has finally reached the end of its useful road. There are better options now. [Anyone care to publish the top of the range current Linn specs for rumble and wow/flutter?] The astronomically priced LP12 is little more than a period piece now. Even its makers know it. |
@lewm Lew, I am surprised that you would post such a comment! It would be more than easy for Linn to rebut all of this stuff, but they would be spending way way way too much time doing it, so why bother when it would fall on deaf ears anyway?
I am beginning to feel exactly the same way, lol. |
Davey, I don’t know how Linn could rebut what is after all nothing but a dissenting opinion in the first place. So they are wise to keep mum. Their products represent the sum total of a set of opinions first formulated by Tiefenbrun.
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as far as the technics tables, you will have a hard time finding a table that is as true to the source for the money than the Technics. If you like coloration, by all means most belt drives will give you that softer warmer presentation. However, if what you are looking for is what is really in the grooves, the Technics tables will get you pretty close. I honestly could never go back to a belt drive design asa main table after hearing the Technics. Maybe an Idler drive is more of a compromise and they can sound fantastic, but most are older and may need a little tender loving care.
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I as the OP would like to hear from the folks that don’t like Linn turntables, what other tables besides Technics which I think sells for about $1000,00 would be a better table than the Linn LP-12. Any other Concrete suggestions New or Used?
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@cd318 Your post should perhaps conclude with this: IMHO.
Your 'opinion' is as stated, although I think you could say what you did about all turntables. In your humble opinion, Linn has been spinning the same 'guff for decades and decades'. In your opinion, the current Linn is 'just slightly better engineered version of Edgar Villchur's pioneering 1962 AR turntable"...and in your opinion, it has the same 3 point suspended suspension, same belt drive, and same platter....
In my humble opinion ( IMHO), you have not heard or seen a current Linn LP12 Klimax. Interestingly, on a recent Linn webinar, I asked why there are so many 'naysayers' about their product on line. Why Linn never bothered to rebut these folks?...the answer was this..there are always 'opinions' on the web, what good would it do to rebut these 'arm chair quarterbacks'---- so very apropos, all of course IMHO. |
@daveyf ,
’There really isn’t any question that the Linn LP12 today is a superior table from any version from the 80’s or even 6/7 years ago!’
Linn have been spinning that guff for decades, and decades. Every few years it is claimed that some new improvement is found.
If so, then why not compare the current with the previous?
Basically, whichever way you care to spin it, the current Linn is just slightly better engineered version of Edgar Villchur’s pioneering 1962 AR Turntable.
Same 3 point suspended suspension, same belt drive, and same platter.
Is there anything even remotely original about the Linn? |
@rrm would be helpful to know what model of LP12 ( age, power supply, bearing, tonearm, sub chassis etc) you are comparing to your Michell. |
First: $2400 is a very good price for the Linn package you describe. It’s good value.
Second; you have to listen and see if you like the Linn sound for the long term. I had an lp12 for years and liked it but eventually realized it sounded rather homogenized with a woolly upper base and limited spacial separation compared to my next turntable; a Michell gyrodec
I can’t imagine going back. |
@coachopconnor There are a few additional mods to your table...1) Original stamped sub chassis, braced stamped sub chassis, Kore, Keel
2) Power supply- original/Nirvana, Valhalla, 4 Lingos ( actually really five, as the first Lingo 2 was exactly the same as the original Lingo but in a different case, while the later Lingo 2 had mods to the board)
3) Base- Trampolin, Trampolin 2, Solid
4) Top plate-reinforced and non reinforced.
5) Plinth- Original Afro with flute, Non-flute, corner braced and now various color options.
To that numerous 3rd party options, like the recently popular Tiger Paw Tranquility etc., |
@cd318 This is telling:
"Then there’s the question of just how much better is a top spec 2020 LP12 v a top spec 1980s LP12. I have heard that some have argued that successive upgrades have somewhat diminished its fabled analogue warmth. I don’t know, and it’s difficult to find out as Linn seem to have given up on promoting the LP12 at shows.
The last Linn product I heard, and that was some 6/7 years ago, were some large ugly overpriced floorstanders."
There really isn’t any question that the Linn LP12 today is a superior table from any version from the 80’s or even 6/7 years ago! Nonetheless, there are still plenty of folks who haven’t heard one of the top models in decades, or even 6/7 years ago with ugly overpriced floor standers, that are still more than happy to naysay! I really question why this is?? |
daveyf,
'So, and i have said this many times before, if one is looking for a 'plug and play' type of turntable, then the Linn LP12 probably is not for you. The Technics definitely would be far better as a 'plug and play' solution.'
I agree. Absolutely. The Technics is a far better plug and play turntable. It is also more likely to be the choice of any professional vinyl archivist.
Even worse, despite the many speed accuracy upgrades since the original cheap noisy A/C motor unit (which Linn used to once boast about whilst denigrating DC motors) there have been numerous upgrades, including the current top of the range DC motor!
Yet despite them all, the Valhalla, the Lingo, Lingo 2, Radikal etc, I bet that even the Technics SL1200GR still has the better speed accuracy specs, or any other for that matter
I wouldn't even be too surprised if Linn oneday eventually did a complete 180 and introduced a direct drive version themselves.
Of course the LP12 does have a certain charm, in the same way a vintage Thorens or a Garrard deck might also have. It is now a part of audio history, despite its murky origins and the notorious legal action which dogged it's early years.
Buying a Linn might be likened to buying a vintage Ferrari. There are many reasons for buying one, but performance for $ is not one of them. No, it should be a matter of passion, and possibly one of dream fulfilment. For better or worse, it is one of the most obsessively compelling audio products ever built.
However, questions still remain as to what the best arm for the Linn is as I remember the Ekos1 getting trounced by Naim's Aro, which is no longer available.
Then there's the question of just how much better is a top spec 2020 LP12 v a top spec 1980s LP12. I have heard that some have argued that successive upgrades have somewhat diminished its fabled analogue warmth. I don't know, and it's difficult to find out as Linn seem to have given up on promoting the LP12 at shows.
The last Linn product I heard, and that was some 6/7 years ago, were some large ugly overpriced floorstanders.
It would also have been nice if Linn had admitted the LP12s heritage and had paid some tribute to its predecessors.
Linn didn't do that. They instead engaged in some very dodgy marketing and business practices and have been consequently enjoying milking the same sacred cow for decades.
The post Ivor, low key Linn, were almost on the verge of killing it off at one point. I bet they're now glad that they didn't.
Anyone interested should certainly consider buying into the cult of the LP12 - but only if they absolutely must.
And if you do, please make sure it has the reinforced top plate. |
The table has been around 48 years? Right..
Power Supplies - Vahalla, 4 Lingos
Power Supply/Motor - Radikal
Sub Chassis - Original, Kore, Keel
Bearing - Original, Cirkus, Karosel
Base - Trampoline, Solid.
I'm just learning about this table, but are there more upgrades I haven't listed? I understand that there are many 3rd party upgrades also, but I'm only counting Linn upgrades. As someone who is just learning about the Linn LP-12. It seems that isn't an inordinate amount of upgrades for 48 years. It would seem to me that Linn has done a good job of keeping their turntable relevant.
I'm not counting Arms or phono pre-amps
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I bought a Linn Axis in 1986 and it's still here so that is a good omen. |
Ralph, what LP12 did you hear that day...a new LP12 Magik, Akurate or Klimax?
I heard a SL1200G about six months ago, it had the stock arm.That day I also heard a 10R with a 4Point arm, it was a lot better than the 1200G! ( as it should be for the price!!) Neither was that impressive to me, unlike the Basis Inspiration that I also heard that day with the Superarm 9, which was in a totally different league to both Technics. I still think the LP 12 Klimax betters the 10R, never mind the 1200G...I guess YMMV. |
The last time I heard one was a year and a few months ago. It seemed well- set up; the system in which is was playing sounded very good!
When was the last time you heard a new SL1200G; especially, when was the last time you heard one with an upgraded arm like a Triplanar?
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@atmasphere Question.. Have you heard a recent Linn LP12...like an Akurate or a Klimax model? There are a lot of folks who naysay the LP12 because the last time they heard one was about thirty years ago and they heard one that was either 1) not set up correctly or 2) heard a total incompatibility with the rest of the system. Not to mention, there are folks who used to own one way way back in the day, that they set up themselves, and it just didn't sound great...for some unknown reason! Not saying this is you, but this is common on threads about the Linn. |
@daveyf I've service thousands of turntables over the last 45 years.
The new Technics is nothing like the old SL1200 although it looks the part in every way. I took one apart with an eye to see about building a different plinth for it, and was surprised to see that it was a new design from the ground up (and so decided a new plinth wasn't needed)! So I'm not sure its fair at all to say that there is no upgrade/update path- Technics seems to have belied that comment to some degree. It employs 6 different damping systems in its construction (including a damped platter). Its bearing is nice and quiet to begin with, but there are after-market parts that can be fitted to it as well.
It is certainly more speed stable than most belt drives (and to verify this, use a Sutherland Timeline and see how well whatever 'table under test is able to keep the lazer dot from moving...). We used to make a turntable called the model 208 (since it looks for all the world like an Empire 208) and I would have no problem expecting that to run circles around any Linn, but I'll also be the first to tell you that the Technics is a better machine- its plinth is both dead and rigid, essential to prevent colorations, and its one of the most speed-stable machines available. None of that 'cogging' nonsense either.
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