Is the Manley Steelhead still relevant?

@dover 

My budget for a pre-amplifier could be $30k, if it was exceptionally better than one that could be obtained at $20k.  So, essentially, I don't want to spend $100k+, but it seems that many highly esteemed pre-amplifiers are selling for $10k-40k, which I suppose could be a reasonable range.  

I am not partial to any particular brand either:  perhaps the Atma-Sphere pre-amplifiers would suit all amplifiers the best due to its transparency, although maybe a Lamm pre-amplifier would be better suited for the M2.2 amplifiers.  Or perhaps there's another lesser known pre-amplifier that would suffice?

(I have Sound Lab speakers, and listen to purely classical and chamber music.)

Thanks.

If you have SL speakers driven by Atma-sphere amplifier s, I strongly recommend a balanced phono linestage. Of course the Atma MP1 would be logical. The atmosphere amplifiers really do come alive when driven in balanced mode. I would not spend big money on a single ended phono line stage to drive balanced amplifiers.

@lewm

Thanks for the pointer. That restriction would exclude the CJ line, so A-S and Lamm could still be options, as well as other balanced (XLR-based) pre-amplifiers.  Ideally, I suppose the pre-amplifier would include both XLR and RCA output lines. 

To my knowledge, Lamm does not and has never made a true balanced preamplifier, either phono or line stage. But I am not a Lamm aficionado, so I may be wrong. You do have to be careful when you shop for balanced equipment. Many manufacturers will let you believe that because their equipment has an XLR output jack, it is balanced inside. That is often not the case. Or some use an added active circuit or transformer at the “balanced” outputs, to generate a balanced signal from a single-ended circuit.That ploy works in terms of a balanced output, but it generally adds coloration, and in such devices the single ended outputs often sound better than the balanced outputs. Keep in mind that I am not saying that balanced always sounds better than single ended, although I do prefer wiring cartridges for balanced drive into a balanced phono stage. I am only saying that atmasphere amplifiers sound best by far when driven in balanced mode. It is well worth the effort. Moreover, driving the amplifier with a balanced preamplifier mitigates its relatively low input sensitivity, by 6db. I have been using atmosphere amplifiers for 25 years, and I have experience listening to them when driven both single ended and balanced. Once I heard them driven in balanced mode (by my MP1), I never looked back.

I might add that even though I still stand by the Manley Steelhead as being a great unit, for your particular system, I think you should look at truly balanced phono and line stages. As mentioned elsewhere, I use my steelhead in a completely separate system to drive inherently single-ended amplifiers.

@lewm 

Thanks for educating me about the nuances of XLR.  I assumed that if equipment had XLR jacks, that it was balanced, but apparently not.  

From my current perspective, it seems that the A-S would be the most versatile and transparent pre-amplifier that I'm aware of so far.  

If you use one turntable, I don’t disagree.

@lewm 
@dover 

I was reviewing a pre-amplifier short list.  It looks like the VAC signature mkIIaSE qualifies as having both XLR and RCA.  Any ideas as to how it compares with the A-S MP1?

Thanks.

I have always admired VAC preamplifiers, but I have only ever heard their top of the line linestage, not the phono stage, at least not in a few decades. It was excellent. I am not so crazy about the fact that the website indicates the optional phono section uses six 12AX7s. There’s nothing so wrong with using a 12AX7 as an input tube for gain in an MM circuit, but I wonder how they manage to get enough gain for MC, and I am guessing they use an internal step-up transformer. This is suggested by the spec that says the max load resistance for MC is 470 ohms. That’s what you get if you put a 1:10 SUT in front of an MM stage bearing a 47K ohm input impedance. I am also wondering whether they use one of the 12AX7 sections as a cathode-follower at the output. 12AX7 is very not ideal as a CF.  Some of the other verbiage suggests they use transformer-coupling at the output, in lieu of coupling capacitors. That can be fine, too.  But don't settle for my speculations; you need to do some further investigating, unless someone else here has direct experience.

@drbond
You should be able to get a great preamp for $30k.
In my view I am sceptical of the real performance of many of the 50-100k offerings. Personally I have heard the Solution 7 series at length and quite frankly it was no more resolving than my vintage tube gear ( modified ). Furthermore harmonic structures were missing. The VITUS doesn’t sound anything special ( a friend owns the full set ). The CH Precision stuff to me is like Naim of old - there are about 20 upgrades you have to have so your 60k becomes 200k per component. Crazy stuff.

I personally like the combo of tube preamp with solid state power amp.
The only solid state preamps that woould interest me would be Constellation ( John Curl ), Robert Koda K15EX, ( I know 2 people who have gone from Thrax/CJ to Robert Koda K15EX ) or Technical Brain. The latter 2 are well over budget. The Constellation Virgo is in your price range, and would be an excellent option.

I would be interested to know which is your favourite amplifier driving the Sound Labs. A friend of mine had the A1’s with a full Jadis amplification system some years ago. I noted that many solid state amps when pushed sounded quite strident driving them.

As far as your options go here are my thoughts -

The VAC appears to be not a fully balanced design. It is single ended and uses output transformers to create a balanced output My concern with the VAC would be the output drive -

AS gain 12db - output voltage 32V (peak I would assume )
VAC gain 12db - output volage is quoted as >8V ( not a lot )
CJ Gat2 gain 25db - output voltage 20V.

So you would need to check the VAC in your system before buying to assess its matching.

In terms of sonic signature even though the CJ Gat2 is single ended, its the best linestage I have heard by some margin - that includes Soulution, Jadis, Vitus, Gryphon. It is an extremely organic sound, superb resolution, there is a sense of weight, power, everything cut from one cloth. It is the only preamp I that I’ve heard that I would purchase to replace my own much modified Marantz 7. Its noise floor is phenomenally low. It blows the older Gat and ACT2 preamps away considerably. I would not dismiss this option, because I think its that good and would suit your Soundlabs.

For the others my gut feel is the AS MP1 would be a better choice over the VAC due to its output voltage matching the inefficient gain of the MA1 monos better. The AS is a DC coupled design, no caps in the signal path, and therefore can have a little DC on the output, and may be more sensitive to tube choice etc. This can lead to a little noise. I would expect the CJ GAT2 to be the quietest of the 3 options.

From the forum I did see someone suggest that Atmasphere sometimes has units available for demo directly.

It would be ideal if you could hear before you buy.

Cheers,

Dover

For a balanced phono stage in this price range, I would recommend an audition of Zesto Audio products.

I believe their Andros Deluxe II would compete favorably with the Steelhead.

@dover 

I suppose I should have three pre-amplifiers to go with my three amplifiers, but I haven't brought myself around to that decision, yet, although, it looks like I may very well be heading in that direction, if for no other reason than to compare the various strengths and weaknesses.

I have always enjoyed the Manley Steelhead as a line stage and phono stage, but I have noticed that it's weakness is at higher volumes, regardless of the amplifier used, when the sound becomes either washed out or distorted to the point of just sounding "weird".

Each amplifier has its own strengths and weaknesses. I cannot say that there is one favorite overall, as each one excels with a particular type of music: for instance the Atma-Sphere MA-1 are my favorite for small, solo or two instrument pieces, but it has difficulty with larger, orchestral works; the Conrad Johnson LP140m work well for both large and small scale works, and are my favorite for anything with wind instruments or brass, or larger stringed instruments, like the cello, but they color certain instruments such as the piano. The Lamm M2.2 are the most detailed, and are the best for piano and violin compositions, but the sound of certain instruments such as the cello or wind instruments sounds somewhat synthetic.  

I think I've decided that I must keep all three amplifiers for my rotating musical preferences. Now I just need another pre-amplifier or two to throw in the rotation for my listening pleasure.

Thanks for your input on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the pre-amplifiers:  looks like my short list now includes the CJ GAT2 and the A-S MP-1.  Maybe I'll try out both, and keep the Manley Steelhead in the rotation!  

@drbond
Thats great.
I have a feeling all three power amps will benefit from the inclusion of a high quality line stage. Dont forget to use the Manley fixed ouputs when using a linestage.

Have fun and good luck. Let us know how you go.

Cheers.

I've really been enjoying my Wavestream Kinetics Deluxe Reference Level 5.1 phono amp.  This is the most recent and up to date version.

It is an all tube design currently using (2 x 12AX7, 4 x 6DJ8); with extremely low noise (I believe with the external power supply that the current Level 5.1 Reference now comes with) noise is below 1uV (one-millionth of a volt ); providing 3 front panel selectable inputs = two MC at 62 dB of gain (without the use of SUT’s or FETS) with a useful cartridge range of 0.2mV to 1.2mV and one MM output customizable to your desire (you are able to choose your MM gain or you can have 3 MC ); having both balanced and RCA inputs and outputs; adjustable loading available on the back panel via custom loading plugs; and an essentially flat RIAA EQ curve within one tenth of a dB (.1dB) from 3 Hz to 40 Khz. *** The above specs are from the best of my recollection - if you have interest, please consult with Scott Frankland to confirm. He is wonderful to communicate with. ***

It is very dynamic, both in the micro and macro sense, throughout the entire frequency range.  It produces rich harmonics that are exhilarating when listening to violin/cello/acoustic bass, both reed and brass instruments, vocals, etc... all without sounding syrupy.  It is extremely quite, plenty of gain and very pure sounding... due to not having to use any FET or Solid State devices, no need to use Step Up Transformers and their extra set of interconnects and connections or having to fight with hum issues.

It is a very well thought out design, by an extremely talented designer and a true gentleman who is absolutely fantastic to deal with, Mr Scott Frankland.  I feel very blessed to be able to have this piece in my system.  At $9K new, I feel it is an absolute steel.  Once in a very great while, you might see one come up for sale on the used market, but not very often.  I consider this to be a true testament to the greatness of this phono amp as people who own it, hang on to it.  It is not a "flavor of the month" type piece, but rather something that you cherish and would like to pass on to your children.

In any case, just another excellent option to be considered :)

Best wishes,
Don