Is the Manley Steelhead still relevant?

Yes, yes it is.  

Absolutely. It gives you quite a lot for the money. If you get one and put super low noise tubes from RAM Audio Labs in it you can not do much better without spending frightful money. 

Look at TW Acustic RPS100 much better sound and build quality.

ebm, it better be as it is way more expensive. I do like that it has a balanced input. I do not like that is has 2 12AX7s in it. All the phono amps that I have listened to that have 12 AX7s have been colored. I know the Steelhead is not. I have not heard the TW. 

Yes, the Manley Steelhead is still relevant. I don´t see how you could do better for the money.
A caveat: I believe that the earlier model had QC problems, but these seem to have been overcome.

Ask member Lewm.

I've owned mine for five years and I love it. Each time I have improved some aspect of my turntables I have discovered just how good the Steelhead is. Changing from VPI decks to hot-rodded NOS vintage decks with Reed 3P arms. Ven den Hul Crimson Colibri. Brian Walsh doing his thing. 
The Manley Steelhead will not hold you back. I don't claim nothing beats it for the price, but I do claim it would be next to impossible to think of it as a limiter/bottleneck. 
Btw, many claim to have had hum problems due to the Steelhead and imho they are wrong. Once I jettisoned my two VPI arms, my hum problems went away. De nada. Zilch. Bupkis. 
I don't doubt Mikey for a second insisting that for his system, newer more elaborate designs beat it. But my system is pretty "up there", just not Mikey level. 

I ran a Steelhead RC for four years, during which time I went through four turntables, five tonearms, and many cartridges. I liked it a lot; for the money and versatility, it's hard to beat. But that said, it was readily bested by the Allnic H3000 that replaced it, albeit at a substantially higher cost.

$15K will get the "end game" piece.

As mentioned above, the Allnic, or something cool as the Luxman are at that level. After that, it's all table madness to blame for nervosa!

The "end game" piece is the Constellation Orion.  John Curl's swan song?

Absolutely! All Manley gear will always be relevant, IMO. EveAnna is such a passionate audiophile and tube expert. She’s a total rock star. All Manley stuff is made with all top notch components and tubes, as shown here on this Analog Planet vid where Mikey Fremer tours the Manley factory. This vid will show how their gear will always stay relevant and keep most if not eventually all of their original value. https://youtu.be/iunBAzr8GK0

Consider ARC Ref 3 doe 15K

Since this thread is about a tube phono amp, anyone recall this being a flavor of the month?
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue57/nvo.htm

Lots of glass in there! Unobtanium in the used market. From the reviews, it appeared to be a "end of game" piece.

Looked a little compromised in the build department, (generic looking case) but all the performance reports were positive.

I still use a NVO and love it! Yes bought a Gold Note PH-10 ss unit for some versatility but the NVO is superior in sonics.

rsf507-

I keep an eye out for a used NVO. It appears owners aren't letting them go.

I've heard some FINEST SS setups. They all do the same-approach tube sonics.

That is naturally subjective. If one is the "press your ear to the speaker grill to hear hiss" kind of listener, then SS is the way to go.

Reviews often mention how a really nice SS unit sounds"tube like" Hmm.....

@tablejockey used NVOs are like Ostrich eggs....good luck finding one. 

rsl507-

I'm afraid the Ostich egg comparison doesn't apply to me.

Living in weirdoville central-SoCal, they're likely available at some upscale gourmet food store.

I use a now aging Fosgate(V2) that does the deed. It holds up against the current $3-5k contenders compared,side by side. 

Being tube nostalgic, I simply want to try one. I believe it may justify letting go of the Foz. I do however, think the Foz looks nicer with its tube display.

I've owned my Steelhead (version 2.0) for about 3-4 years.  I bought it second-hand off Audiogon, in mint original condition. I am using it as a full-function preamplifier to drive the built in amplifiers of a Beveridge 2SW speaker system.  I bought the Beveridges several years before purchasing the MS, and after I serviced the Bev direct drive amplifiers and did some trouble-shooting, I have come to adore the speakers .  Since I use two turntables to serve the Bevs, I wanted a phono stage with at least two pairs of inputs and with both MM and MC capability.  The Steelhead has one MM and two MC inputs. Also, after having convinced myself that the Bevs are still world class, after 40 years, I felt the system deserved stretching my wallet to get the best phono stage possible.  Those were the factors I considered in making my purchase.  I read elsewhere that Steelhead owners generally prefer the sound when it is used as a phono only stage, connecting to an outboard linestage.  Since I did not want to add that layer of complexity, I did some research into why that might be so.  The linestage section does not add gain; it consists of a fancy cathode follower.  Since it adds no gain, it ought in theory to be very transparent.  The schematic is not available, but I learned something about the circuit topology from reading the text of an interview with Evanna Manley published on 6 Moons, a few years ago.  Evanna described the output circuit in some detail, and from her information, I conceived of a way to improve the linestage and also to improve the output of the phono stage.  (The phono stage output drives the motorized volume control which in turn drives the cathode follower output stage, when you use the full function mode.)  I already liked the Steelhead before I did anything to mine, but I made some changes after reading the piece in 6 Moons, and that takes the Steelhead up at least another notch.  Now I am VERY happy with it.
I also disagree with whoever wrote that the Steelhead is less than excellent in construction quality.  If you look inside and know what you are looking at, you would see that the parts quality is rather high.  What you don't get is a fancy, glitzy chassis; that's the only compromise, and I will take that any day over beautiful exterior finish masking crappy components or a bad design.  When I evaluate an audio component, I ignore brand names per se as a criterion for purchase.  I pretty much only care about circuit topology and parts quality inside.  If I had my druthers, I do prefer balanced operation, which the Steelead does not do, but on the other hand it is as quiet as or even quieter than my two other very high quality fully balanced phono/preamplfiers, one of which is solid state and the other of which is tubes.  Furthermore, the Bev amplifiers are single-ended, so using a balanced preamplifier would not reap all possible benefits of balanced op. If anyone wants to know what modifications I made to the MS output stages, please contact me privately.

I am intrigued by the Manley Stingray because of its multiple inputs, and adjustable cartridge gain and loading. A friend of mine disagrees, saying the added complexity detracts from the absolute sound quality. He runs a Lamm LP 2.1 phono stage that has fixed gain and loading.

How can any real man not like gear called "Manley"?


Seriously, I heard the stingray once and it sounded very good and the Manley gear definitely has a nice clean modern industrial look to it.

I did lose interest though a few years back when the prices suddenly jumped dramatically for no apparent good reason other than they could.

Steelhead, Not Stingray. Trout, Not Ray. Lol

The Steelhead is not really more "complex" than the Lamm.  It is more flexible and offers many more options.  But all switching is done via high quality relays, so if you are paranoid about the extra circuitry, you can switch it out.  Anyway, you buy what fills your needs, first and foremost, in my opinion. Or at least I do.  For me, the fixed gain and loading (and especially the fixed amount of gain) afforded by the Lamm phono stage would be a hindrance to the use of a wide variety of cartridges of different types.

15 years or so ago I sold my Preamp and bought a BAT vk5i se it came with new production RCA 6922 and couldnt enjoy the preamp. The amp took 8 6922's I knew it was the tubes so I bought some bugle boys it was better but music didn't grab me. Was advised to replace the 2 power supply tubes so I did. Just wasn't as fun listening to music anymore. I figured I needed to warm things up. I bought some nice NOS Valvo's then Mullards, everybody said the BAT was so great. I sold the amp. The funny thing was while I was chasing the tubes to fix the BAT I listened to my 10 pound Don Allen Preamp that came with some kind of odd ball $15 tubes he chose for building the preamp that was a complete joy to listen to, big tight bass, wonderful detail retreaval but main thing it was very musical. I saw a video of Kevin Deal talking how what makes the prima Luna so great was how much it weighs and how many parts are in it and bad sounding preamps are light with not many parts. I don't know if I agree with that one. Problem is with all the things involved in a system a few things can rhrough it off. You don't if you can fix it unless you try but it can be an expensive and agrivating road just to listen to music.

I've spoken with Kevin Deal's team at Upscale Audio. They highly recommend the Manley Steelhead.

The Steelhead is still relevant because its just a good circuit design. For a very long time it was the phono stage to beat. Since it can be used as a linestage and take the place of a preamp its an extremely flexible piece. My only problem would be using it was my ARC tube amps which are balanced only.

Just thought I’d add:
Most think the steelhead is a tubed unit. It’s a hybrid phono stage with transformer input, FET, then tube. Never heard one. But I’m partial to tubes.

Time and time again, my rig amazes me and since I have a Steelhead, I know it is relevant and one of the reasons I get such good sound. Last night I forgot I had the original RCA pressing of Mingus' Tijuana Moods that I "inherited" (he is still alive thank goodness) from my father. Some of you may already know that the record was recorded in '57 but not released until '62. The sound was just so incredibly gorgeous and clear, making me once again think that Fremer is wrong when he talks about modern vinyl pellets being superior, modern pressing being superior, etc. 

Anyone know what could be wrong for an intermittent vari out from the left channel on the Steelhead?  (No sound out of left RCA vari out, but then after turning off and on, and hearing a very audible "click", everything works.  Also had a complete block on MM1, MM2 out, with nothing, until after the audible "click".)  Thanks.

This is not a phono stage, but it is what one looking for the very best would do well to consider: Soundsmith SG1. With the best available power supply this is said to be at least as good as phono stage/cart combinations where each part, cart and stage, is more than your phono stage budget. Strain gauge eliminates the phono stage, and allows very affordable stylus replacement. 

would agree with hagtech,but for 15k I would be looking at the ARC ref phono stage or the VTL 6.5 Both are much better than the steelhead. Have owned two copies of the chinook, the steelhead, and the other two mentioned.

15k - that's a very nice and juicy number to play with. Two of the greatest phono stages were made in thee 80's the Mares Connoisseur and the Vendetta SCP2A. I have a Vendetta for which I got new IC's on advice of the great designer. John Curl has said in various interviews that the Jfets from back in the day aren't available now. My takeaway is that age shouldn't be a factor or a concern. You need to ask a few retailers if you can audition the phono stage in your system. 

Nice discussion.  Thanks for sharing. 

Could someone please explain how I would be better served with a dedicated pre-amplifier in my system, instead of using the line input in the Manley Steelhead as my pre-amplifier?  (Also does anyone know if the Manley Steelhead is class A or push-pull, etc?)

Thanks. 

I have been extremely satisfied with the performance of the ARC Ref 2SE phonostage. It has adequate gain (74 dB) with balanced output.  The balanced output provides an additional gain of ~ 6 dB  (for single ended output the gain is 68 dB). That additional gain is extremely important if you're using low output MC's (~0.4 mV or lower) in keeping the noise floor down. Based on my experience with other single ended phonostages (Rogers PA1A, Fosgate Signature), and despite a strong Manley following, I'll always prefer balanced (true) over singled ended phonostages. The ARC Ref 3 as indicated above can be had for $15k or less.

@rdk:

Thanks for the detailed reply.  Yes, the balanced lines make sense.  But what I was considering wasn't changing out the phono stage, but how using a pre-amplifier would be different than simply using the Manley Steelhead phono stage as a pre-amplifier.  

Drbond, Like nearly every preamplifier or phono stage ever made, the Steelhead operates in Class A.  Also, like every other preamp or phono stage, the Steelhead is not push-pull.  The terms Class A and push pull generally apply to the operation of an amplifier.

The term “preamplifier” these days can be used to refer to either a single box that contains a line stage AND a phono section or to a line stage only,  So, you are considering using the Steelhead as a phono stage and connecting its phono outputs to a line stage.  The major advantage of doing so is only that most linestages will add a bit more gain to the signal, typically 10 to 20 db.  The Steelhead’s line output does not add any gain over and above that which you dialed in at the phono settings.  The max gain is 65db.  I own only one cartridge for which that is not adequate, an Ortofon MC2000, which puts out .05mV.

Lewm,

Thanks for the reply.  

I'm using the Steelhead's line in as a pre-amplifier for my DAC, which is then sent out to the amplifiers.  So, essentially the Steelhead line in does not add any gain, but a standard pre-amplifier would add some gain to the line in?  The only advantage to gain being additional signal, which could add to distortion?  

Thanks.

For your CD player or any other device that puts out what is generally considered a high output voltage, like a tape recorder, a television set audio output, etc., the gain added by a formal line stage is completely superfluous. The output voltage of your CD player is fully adequate to drive an amplifier.

@lewm 
Thanks for the detail.  I may try running my CD player without a pre-amplifier just to find out how it sounds.  (Unfortunately there's no volume control on my CD player, so I'll see how loud or soft it is.)  

So what you're essentially saying is that a pre-amplifier may be superfluous for CD players, and are essentially only volume control devices, which may also add some "color" to the signal?

the gain added by a formal line stage is completely superfluous.

What Lewm is referring to is the standard set by the industry back in the early 80's of 2V RMS for most source components. At the time, turntables were all but extinct. 
I disagree that a preamplifier is "superfluous". The better word would be, at best, "optional". 2V RMS is plenty for virtually every amplifier in terms of making full use of the amplifier's power. But for starters, what does that have to do with such features as input selection, balance, mute, phase inversion, etc? 
But more importantly, a great preamplifier does other things-it creates a sense of drive, propulsion, dynamics, and even space that is absent using a passive volume control at unity gain. Read any of John Atkinson's reviews of top tier preamplifiers over the last five years and he makes note of how he has come around to this realization after once thinking that a passive volume control offered a "purer signal". 

I was referring to GAIN only, when I wrote that a linestage is superfluous. Obviously it’s needed for attenuation (if the phono has no volume control) and for input selection, at a minimum. Sheesh!

I would not connect the full output of
a CDP direct to an amplifier. In certain cases you might damage your speakers.

@drbond
Nobody has asked you the key questions -
What power amp are you using ?
For your current listening how high do you have to go on the Manley volume pot ?

From your other posts - you appear to have Atmasphere MA1 amplifiers.
These are an easy load to drive ( 100k ) but I note that they are less sensitive than many amplifiers ( 2.8V to full power ).

Your Manley linestage is just a buffer - no real gain.

So to answer your question on what a preamp would do, -
If you find that you have to turn the Manley volume pot past halfway for normal listening then adding a linestage with gain means that the device driving the power amps will be working less hard - this may result in more headroom, and a more relaxed sound overall.

I have found that despite DAC’s/CD Players usually having enough output to drive power amps direct, the insertion of a high qusality lineage often brings about a more natural, unforced presentation - even more transparent in some cases, despite the additional preamp and cable.

For example I regularly listen to an Air Tight system with Tannoy Autographs. Even though the power amps are very sensiitive and the DAC a stereophile class A product, we still prefer inserting the matching Air Tight preamp between the DAC and power amps, even though the additional gain is not needed.

If I were in your position and you find you are running the Manley at high volume for normal listening, then rather than add a line stage, why not investigate an Atmosphere preamp that includes a phono stage. Less boxes and less cabling.  The full function Atmosphere preamps are well regarded with excellent phono stages.

I would not be surprised to find that you find some significant improvements by having more drive to the inut of the MA1 power amps. Perhaps see if you can trial an Atmasphere MP3 or MP1 full function preamp ( with phono ) you will quickly get the answer you are looking for.

I agree with Dover in general on the merits of an active linestage . I have owned and still use both an Atma MP1 preamp and Atma amplifiers for about 25 years; I’m a very satisfied customer. I am very surprised to learn that the MA1 has such a low input sensitivity (2.8V to full power). (In this case “low” means the voltage required is relatively high compared to other amplifiers.) My own Atmaspere amplifiers are easier to drive, in terms of signal voltage. The Atma stuff is used to drive a pair of full range ESLs in a separate system. The Steelhead is used to drive a pair of Beveridge 2SW amplifiers in parallel with an electronic crossover that provides low frequencies to a pair of woofers.

fsonic, I don’t know what you’re thinking about the Steelhead linestage, but it is NOT passive. It uses a tube as a White cathode follower. Cathode followers don’t add gain, but they do buffer the output impedance, which is very low, as a result. Thus impedance matching is not a problem with any amplifier having an input impedance greater than 10K ohms, which includes just about any amplifier you’d care to use. Issues associated with true passive linestages do not apply. I don’t care for them, either, and for the same reasons cited by you and suggested by Dover.

Thanks for everyone's input.

@dover 
Aha!  That makes much more sense now.  I have three amplifiers that I rotate between:  an Atma-Sphere MA-1, a Conrad Johnson LP140m, and a Lamm M2.2.  The input sensitivities are 2.8V, 0.5V, and 1.0V respectively, which is exactly what I experience with the volume control: namely the higher the input sensitivity voltage, the higher I turn the volume knob, and at higher volumes the sound does begin to get "washed out".  But, it would seem that shouldn't be the case with volume, but that a higher gain would "color" the sound more, and that a higher volume should just make the accurate sound louder, but I guess that if volume and the Manley Steelhead behaved in a linear fashion, that is what I should expect, but what you're saying is that as the volume is turned up, it stresses components in the Steelhead, and I get more distortion?  

So, when you say the Manley linestage is just a "buffer", you mean that it's not amplifying the signal by adding gain, but just transmitting the signal unadulterated? 

Thanks!

There are many reasons why you may experience a "washed out" SQ with higher volume levels, in your system.  But keep in mind that a volume control is an attenuator; it is not adding gain as you turn up the volume. It is attenuating the output of the device less and less as you go toward the max volume.  The tubes and transistors upstream from the attenuator and which are responsible for "gain" are always operating according to a fixed set of voltages and currents, producing in the device a fixed signal voltage (until you get to the attenuator) with an inherent signal to noise ratio.  As you employ less and less attenuation, not only do you get more and more signal voltage to drive the amplifier, but also you are permitting more and more of the noise floor to drive the amplifier.  So, the end result is that you begin to hear the noise, albeit it is way down below the signal voltage by the same ratio in db that is inherent to the device.  As to why you feel the sound eventually acquires a "washed out" coloration, that is a complex question that is probably the net result of many factors.
A cathode follower is an active device that has very very low distortion and adds no gain.  Its raison d'etre is to convert voltage to current, which is another way of saying it sees a source (the upstream circuitry) that has a high output impedance and it puts out the same signal (no added distortion, ideally) with a low output impedance so as to drive the downstream amplifier.  That's one definition of a "buffer".  The buffer function is very necessary for any linestage, whether it includes circuits that add gain, or not (as in the case of the Steelhead).  The low output impedance is very advantageous for driving any amplifier (see also below). 


What fsonic and maybe Dover mentioned is another class of "linestage" that is completely passive in that such devices contain no active components at all (no tubes or transistors); they are basically just attenuators.  This can be done with a resistor network or (better) with autoformers or transformers.  The problem created is that you need to match the output impedance of the device driving the passive attenuator with the input impedance of the downstream device.  The rule of thumb is that the output impedance of the driver (in this case, the passive attenuator) should be about 1/10 the input impedance of the driven component, in ohms, and this ratio should be consistently maintained at all levels of attenuation.  (This criterion is easily met by the active CF to be found in the Steelhead.) It's not so easily or universally achieved using a passive attenuator. Therefore, passive attenuators need to be carefully selected and matched to the up and downstream components for good results.  Many aficionados do swear by passive attenuators as linestages.  I am not in that camp.

@drbond 

So, when you say the Manley linestage is just a "buffer", you mean that it's not amplifying the signal by adding gain, but just transmitting the signal unadulterated?

Yes.
The washed out sound at higher volume settings suggest the Manley is either unable to drive the Atmasphere power amp adequately, or the quality of the sound is deteriorating at higher volume settings due to the circuit topology in the Manley.

Adding an active line stage will fix that issue and may even benefit your other power amplifiers as well. I would encourage you to try some out if you can.

In terms of options Atmasphere preamps should work well and have balanced outputs as well as single ended to suit their amps.
Conrad Johnson linestages at the upper levels are excellent but only have single ended outputs available.
I would be wary of the Lamm preamps without trialling them becuase they tend to work best with their own gear - the LAMM phono/preamps have unusual gain structures and in real use tend to work best together.

@lewm

What fsonic and maybe Dover mentioned is another class of "linestage" that is completely passive

I did NOT discuss passaive linestages in my post, and do not like them, and they would be a waste of time in drbond's system.
How many times have I told you to read my posts more carefully.
I get sick and tired of you misinterprretting my posts. You are supposed to be a doctor - would you like me to post in Latin ??

My recommendation for drbond is clearly to add an ACTIVE line stage between the Manley and his power amps.

@dover 

Thanks for sharing your insight.  I didn't realize how much the input sensitivity of amplifiers influenced sonic behavior while using the Steelhead line stage as a buffer.

Regarding pre-amplifiers, would you suggest any other brands besides A-S or CJ, or are those as good as any? (As I noticed that you mentioned that you have an Air Tight in your system.). Is there something in particular that I need to look for in pre-amplifier specifications, such as gain, etc?  

Thanks!

@drbond 
Depends on your budget.
The reason I suggested the Atmasphere MP1 or MP3 is they are certain to have enough drive to match the the MA1's. I think you can get these with or without a phono included in the preamp.
The Conrad Johnson ET7 up to the Gatt have very good drive for insensitive amplifiers. A friend of mine has recently purchased the Conrad Johnson Gatt2 - it is stunning but of course it has a big price tag. It's a forever purchase.
Air Tight are also very good - the ATC2 has great drive and can be obtained at reasonable prices second hand due to being less well known.
Audio Research in general I find a little brash for my taste and I think the others offer better value.

How much do you want to spend ?