Jazz for aficionados
Good choice indeed and good ears...đđ It is one of the best three among the 12 albums i listened to ...
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@stuartk thanks the question.  Good one.  Iâll respond later today. |
Well, Iâm perplexed. You are more erudite than I"ll ever be on the topic of Jazz but I definitely donât hear the music of the 2nd great 5tet as fusion-like. Once Corea and Holland arrived, yes. Before that? No. Would you therefore characterize the albums J. McLean released when he had Williams on drums similarly, or Williamâs two early Blue Notes as a leader? Iâm curious about your thinking process. Care to explain? Speaking of B Carter, I particularly enjoy "Further Definitions" and "Jazz Giant" even though they sound "old fashioned" within the context of my collection, which is mostly Post Bop. |
On the subject of âinfluenceâ and Elvin Jones/Tony Williams. I think it is important when comparing players to not think too much in terms of superiority of perceived amount of âinfluenceâ. Elvin and Williams were tremendously influential and copied by other drummers. But so were players like Philly Joe. Elvin and Williams would be the first to say it as Philly Joe was one of THEIR main influences. Itâs a continuum. Jazz is always building on what came before stylistically and like any art form it reflects the time of its creation. Tommy Williams was heavily Rock influenced. He is considered by many to be the first Fusion drummer.. He was the perfect drummer for Milesâ âSecond Great Quintetâ. A stylistic period of Milesâ that clearly showed him headed toward a Fusion/Rock sensibility. Williams would not have been the perfect drummer for Milesâ âThe Quintetâ. I canât imagine Milesâ âCookinâ without the feel and swagger that Philly Joe brought to the music.
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Although I happen to prefer the two I suggested already, "Modern Art" and "Portrait of Art Farmer" are better known:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xlwqdq1KY8&list=OLAK5uy_kBmYS4IvRE1WxDXl7XeTXGQkBqCWRO4Io  |
I collected many albums of these two playing together this only time i think :  Yelena Eckemoff ¡ Manu Katche "Colors" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4FLCc-TAIQ&list=PLKyeEtfjtazmJHZBOBzvDrAo1dW1Ucg6d |
That is a quote from Miles Davis. I think Elvin and Tony Williams were more innovators as both of them had unique styles that they innovated first and other drummers follow/copy to this day. I think Miles was talking about comping and harmonic telepathy as well as keeping time. When I have time I will elaborate more. |
Speaking of A. Farmer, are you familiar with this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G5quNRGnCE&list=OLAK5uy_nnE2EwWUyJwoXr_u6ToaLz56ptYbNZlso The same group recorded the "Something to Live For" album, dedicated to B. Strayhorn. Here is the title track (the full album is not available in full on Youtube): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiqhOBDfo8U
Thatâs quite an endorsement! Iâm curious: would you say Philly Joe was as innovative as Williams and Jones, or more of a peer in terms of technique? Â |
@curiousjim I came across the "Crossings" album while searching for more recordings that featured Red Garland and Philly Joe Jones. To my surprise, after the two of them stopped working in the Miles Davis Quartet, they would only record together again just a few times throughout the rest of their careers. Its a shame as they were so "in sync" with each other. Miles Davis is on record saying that Philly Joe, Red Garland, and Paul Chambers were one of the greatest rhythm sections he ever worked with. Garland went on to record a lot of albums as a leader but used Art Taylor on drums predominantly after his stint with Miles Davis. Art Taylor was no slouch himself but I prefer philly Joe Jones's comping, solos, and brush playing, as well as his superb sense of keeping time. Miles is also on record stating that Philly Joe was just as good on the kit as Tony Williams and Elvin Jones. I'm stating the obvious saying this book is only for drummers but a friend of mine, himself a drummer, mentioned this book to me and the quote I took from the only review on Amazon says a lot about Philly Joe.
I could not find "Crossings" on Spotify either so I ordered the CD on Discogs. Â |
Art Farmer this morning, but Iâll be listening to Paul Chambers,  Bass on top, by days end. Thanks for the suggestion @alexatpos . |
@curiousjim Listen to Chamberâs âBass on topâ album... Â âSpeakingâ of âFrogmanâs ruleâ,... here is a debut album of Nancy Harrow. It is recorded in 1961. with a quite strong line up. She did not lead lead album until 1978 (except one lesser known from 1968, quote from âAll musicâ) Â |
I sometimes think of selling my turntable and records and go to streaming only, the world at my fingertips, Then I come across records like Gil Meleâs " Waterbirds", which never made it to CD and will be forgotten in history. Iâm keeping my records and buying even more till my daughter ships me off. |
As unknown as Gil Melle ... And certainly not less creative is Jan Johansson a Swedish legendary jazz pianist in his country ... He dies at 37 years old in 1968 .... The 11 albums i listened to are creative and completely unique ... Try this one but i must confess they are all interesting : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3XVE-Wzwjk&list=OLAK5uy_lCP4HYEp4BA-GJf8e6_EH343qqFJ_70O8  Jazz after the war stay not just a specialized genre from America but became little by little  a musical universal new larger encompassing language ... As interesting as classical ....    |
I agree.
Iâd have preferred a less distorted guitar tone on the "Waterbirds" recording. J. McLaughlin didnât employ his Mahavishnu O. guitar tone on "In A Silent Way" and for good reason. Needless to say, others will disagree. |
It seems frogman hit hard another time with someone i did not know but is very interesting musically ... Thanks ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd4Ukl6snFM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61sM-8M0no4  This one is mesmerizing and i dont like electronica generally ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsF5Nb-QjF0  |
Hereâs a musician who certainly deserves to not be forgotten by todayâs Jazz listeners, as he seems to have been. Not only a terrific baritone saxophonist, but he also had a successful career as a film and TV series composer (He also designed the cover art for several well known Jazz lps). Â Who has heard of Gil Melle? Â |
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Me i am truly enjoying Blue Mitchell sound ... I dont have this one thanks ...
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I have been enjoying my "jazz on Sunday mornings" for over 3 hours now. Louis Hayes also plays drums on this great Horace Silver album, of which the 9th edition of The Penguin Guide to Jazz Recordings
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This drummer fits into this quoted category. A drummer, Louis Hayes, 86 years old and still with us, that is obscure to most but not us jazz aficionados. Hayes played on many of the great Cannonball Adderley session throughout the 60s. From a Cannonball 1960 live recording titled The Cannonball Adderley Quintet Live in San Francisco we can hear how talented Hayes, then just 23 years old, was on the kit. Cannonballâs intro announcement for the song Bohemia After Dark,
lets us know the treat weâre going to get by Louis Hayesâs drum exchanges and solo in the tune. From the album and also 2 awesome live videos of the same tune. Â Â Â |
The drummers on all three albums I presented, Philly Joe Jones, Jimmy Cobb, and Art Blakey represent three of the greatest drummers in jazz history. The same could be said about the bass players, Paul Chambers on the Miles Davis sessions, and Sam Jones on Cannaonballâs. All four pianists as well represent the greatest in jazz, Red Garland on Milestones, Bill Evans and Wynton Kelly (1 track, Freddie Freeloader ) on KOB, and Hank Jones on Somethinâ Else. This song, from the album Milestones, features just the rhythm section as Miles and Cannonball "laid out" making this 1 track a trio recording. IMHO, it is one of the greatest trio recordings ever made. I love the exchanges between pianist Red Garland and bassist Paul Chambers starting at the 2:50 mark, followed by Garland and drummer Philly Joe exchanges for the remainder of the song. Â |
I can definitely agree with this statement. And before I started to use Spotify to give a "test listen" I purchased a lot of CDs that I wished I had not. If an artist is relatively new, or an older/obscure artist that for whatever reason I was not aware of, I can listen to them first and then spend my hard earned money if I like the artist and his or her artistry. Been listening to the great Julian Edwin Adderley a lot lately, and "Cannonball" fits into @frogman the category of great recordings by great players in the quote. These 3 albums should be in every jazz aficionados library. Cannonball was "canonized" by the time he played on all three. And the rest of the personnel on all three, Â Canonized:
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I must say that i am not a musician... I cannot evaluate jazz players as well and as precisely and historically as erudite as frogman ... As he said there is no rule... Most geniuses are known in all human fields ... But unrecognized geniuses by all save a few who knows them exist ... Roger Boscovitch is no less genius than Newton but he was very less known... Gesualdo in music is a genius on par with many more well known others ... his genius is more visible today ... Only Monteverdi can exceed him with his creativity ... And only Bach can rival Monteverdi in genius anyway...But if we forgot who is the better, Gesualdo is unique in all musical history ... And in the short history of jazz which is now an earth global affair, many names deserve to be more well known who are not so well known in North America... One thing is sure, music moves us and the way music moves us at the end obey no rules and sometimes some music moves us more than it moves many others ... Music at the end is a personal affair more than a cultural race to win a prize... We cannot love all musical geniuses at the same level for each one of them ...We obey our heart and our heart is unjust or unwise he does not need any reason to love ... I discovered long time ago that i love musicians more than the musical language because each musician give its interpretation in its own unique way ... Understanding each musician is an ideal position , i am not qualified nor able to do it ... I love too much some to be fair and balanced ... It is why i appreciate frogman judgment so much ... Â Â Â Â |
I like clarity, especially when my comments are being (mis)represented. So, to be clear: The term âThe Frogmanâs ruleâ was coined by Rok2id in response (in part) to an ongoing âdebateâ here about the possible reasons that some musicians are not as well known as others. I would not be so self centered as to make a âruleâ for anyone else but myself. As further background, there was a suggestion made AT THE TIME that it was usually some sort of injustice at play. The âstarving genius artistâ myth. I disagreed and wrote that the reason was OFTEN (not always) that the artistry of the musician in question was usually not on the level of better known artists and that when one considers the reality of the music business (and it is precisely that), that lesser artists will not receive as much attention via bookings, recordings contracts and record sales. I stand by that assertion. However, and I said it then, there have been examples of artists deserving of wider recognition who did not receive that recognition for a variety of reasons, usually personal: drug use, difficult to work with, etc. Alex has often posted obscure artists and, FOR ME, several (not all, and I said it at the time) simply werenât on a level that interested me when one considers the vast number of recordings available by truly great players. Personally, I canât imagine ever being âboredâ with the existing supply of great recordings by great players. And Iâm not talking about the greatest of the great either. Not every really good tenor player, for instance, is on the level of a Coltrane, or Rollins, but still rewarding to listen toâŚ.obviously. However, there are many levels below that and it gets to the point when one (I) says âwhatâs the point?â. Just to have something different? Even if itâs mediocre? Worse yet, NOT different, but totally derivative. No thanks . Lastly, as time marched on many of the supposedly âobscureâ players posted werenât that obscure at all. For instance, look at recent posts. Howard McGhee and Eddie Harris, obscure?! I donât think so. Anyway, this subject would arise in discussion one way or another over the years and the term âFrogmanâs ruleâ stuck, somehow. Iâve never used it myself. I hope this clarifies things somewhat and Happy Holidays to all.  |
