Lord, Lord, my burden is heavy.
*****Eloquently and beautifully stated*****
comments like this just encourage him.
I never said they didn't deserve 102k, I said it was a lot of money. It still is. His rant didn't change that. I think most musicians never make what they are worth. I even think Wynton is under paid at lincoln Center.
Did not mean to trash the Minnesota Orchestra. Have a few of their CDs. LvB's 9th in SACD is a favorite. At least they record, which is more than can be said of most American Groups.
I have real empathy for all the Jazz / Blues / Pop and R&B people that never got the financial or public acclaim they derserved. But plenty of others got filthy rich off of their talents and efforts. It's actually a National shame.
Having said all that, there are plenty of professions more essential to modern society than musicians. They, musicians, can be replaced by computers!! hahahahhah not The Frogman or Learsfool of course.
Teachers, Cops, The Military, Doctors and even Lawyers come to mind. :) And lets not forget prison guards!!!!
let the String section of the NYP not show up for work, and then let the gabarge collectors not show up for work!! See which wheel gets the grease.
Most of this is just in fun. My real issue with Schubert is that he said the US Army and the USMC were armed mobs.
BTW, Frogman you should always carry a card with the phone number of the New York Philharmonic, just in case you ever get hit by a bus, they can call the trombome section to rush to your aid. :) Hell, who needs doctors anyway!
Could a computer play Be-bop?
Cheers |
Just so, Frog, not to mention a good bassoonist is much harder to find than a competent Doc. |
Eloquently and beautifully stated.
Rok, your comments surprise me given your deep appreciation for music and musicians.
****Ask the average working person in this country****
****Many / most people, work all their lives perfecting or improving their craft. Not just musicians.****
All bias aside, professional musicians are not average working persons, and most "working persons" don't even have a craft; never mind spending their lives perfecting and improving what they do for work. That has not been my experience. Of course there are many walks of life besides music that involve a craft and many of those craftsmen do spend their lives perfecting and improving their craft. The successful ones often make much more than $100,000.
****Doctors are immeasurably more important to a society than bassoon players. A ludicrous comparison.****
That's a matter of opinion as already pointed out. And while I would have chosen viola or banjo (sorry, couldn't resist) instead, most successful doctors make far more than $100,000, so I don't understand your objection to the comparison.
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Q: How can one tell if the floor of the concert hall stage is level?
A: The violist is drooling out of both sides of his mouth.
:-):-):-) |
Rok2id, Reading you post again, I can not but agree the comparison between a bassoon player and a Doctor is ludicrous,the bassoonist is much more important. |
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Not so, I'd rather NEVER see a Doctor than not hear Classical
Music Live, I am positive I would have been dead in both body and soul long ago without it.
Most people have a year or two at the job 20 times in a row.
Minnesota SO received RAVE rewiews in Europe , London Times called it the best in the world, which before its strike it was and will be again.
If anything I understated my case in 1st post.Music is God's greatest gift to man, save his son, and Classical Music is the acme of it, the pinnacle of Western Civilazation, and is so considered in every corner of the world.
Coming from abject poverty in the very bowels of the working class myself, no one is more aware of the great evil inherent in the huge inequity in income in the USA.
Classical musicians fight it by producing beauty , without which there is no hope, that the poorest person can readily access by turning on the radio.
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Another view.
Schubert is hyperbole personified.
102k is a lot of money. Ask the average working person in this country.
Doctors are immeasurably more important to a society than bassoon players. A ludicrous comparison.
Many / most people, work all their lives perfecting or improving their craft. Not just musicians.
Minnesota is among the best Orchestras, only if that list is made up of many, many ensembles, OR, Europe is no longer with us.
I agree that housing in the Twin Cities, like most urban areas in the country, is expensive.
Cheers |
I didn't want to be the first to say it, but Schubert is absolutely correct. |
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102 K for someone who worked harder and longer to prefect their craft than the average doc or dentist is not a lot of money. A simple middle-class home in Twin Cities is 300-400 K.
Minnesota is one of greatest bands in the world, to play there you are like the Doc's at another Minnesota icon, the Mayo Clinic, the best of the best. |
Rok, several Minnesota orchestra players left to go to other positions during that very lengthy lockout they had, so they now need to be replaced, including more than one principal player, if I remember right. Certainly the principal clarinet left, one of the most high profile ones to do so - he took a position in the LA Phil. I assume that is what this probably refers to - it may not be an increase in the actual number of positions, just filling the open ones they have now. I can look it up fairly easily if you really want to know, though, just let me know. FYI, some of the very largest orchestras in the carry have over 90 musicians. |
The Frogman / Learsfool:
Minnesota is now back in business. Part of the agreement allows for an increase in personnel from 77 to 84.
What does this mean? What sort of players could they now need, that they didn't have before?
Minimum base salary is now $102,284!!
Wow!! nice gig.
Cheers |
Forgive me if someone before covered these, I tried to read through most of the posts. I'm new here, but like to get other ideas about albums I may have missed or never heard. I like posts like this one, so I'll throw two out there for you guys/girls.
In reference to Julie London Foster, who I haven't listened to closely until after this post, and I agree is an amazing american signer. I'd like to suggest another american singer who I think is equally as good but in the other direction of Jazz. She's maybe a little more grimy, and maybe the recordings aren't as crisp as Julie London, but they are alive and breathtaking.
Nina Simone-Pastel Blues
And one more that I was surprised I never heard about until a D.J. last year was playing it in the record store.
Johnny Dyani-Witchdoctor's Son |
She really did, I've read dozens of her friends and colleagues and saying this.
Also, they all said she was as nice a person as they ever met and it was not the usual false praise of the dead.
She also gave great amount of money to Child Charaties, just a great human being. |
I hear you on Julie London Foster 9, beyond doubt the best american female ballad singer. 05-02-14: Schubert Thanks Schubert. I've listened to recordings by many other females and in the past months for me her sound has passed them by. It's all about her "sound." Her recordings may not be jazz per se but she certainly is a "jazzy" woman. I did not know she lacked confidence in her talent. That's ironic. She was remarkable in her talent. |
I hear you on Julie London Foster 9, beyond doubt the best american female ballad singer.
But she had little confidence in her own talent and sang what her producers put in front of her.
The few recordings she made of real upbeat hard-core jazz songs, showed her to be every bit as good at that as well. |
Mitch4t:
Nice clip of Bey with Silver. His voice for some reason reminded me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPclJvyF_70
I have this Cd, I need to play it more.
Cheers |
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Check out Andy Bey's singing on Horace Silver's 'Total Response' album. 'Old Mother Nature Calls' is the vocal that I like on this LP.
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I went thru an ECM phase also. Didn't quite do it for me, even though I found Jarrett intriguing. Esp the Koln concert. The ECM albums had great sound quality and playing, just did not speak to me.
Julie London was a great singer and actress. She is currently appearing on the Western channel with Cooper, in 'Man of the West'.
Beautiful voice and a stone Fox.
My latest 'discovery': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jDDtUFUgbM
Will receive the CDs in a few days. I think I will like his style. Where have these people been hiding?
Cheers |
I find it absolutely astonishing how tastes change over the years. Mine have gone full circle, now I'm back to where I began with "Blue Note".
Keith Jarret, Terje Rypdal, "Cadona", the group, John Abercrombie, Ralph Towner, Jan Gabarek, and Gary Burton, are just some of the musicians represented by my ECM phase as a music lover. I classify that phase and those musicians as quite introspective at that time.
Pat Metheny and Chic Corea were also with ECM, they've changed, and so have I; especially Pat Metheny, I can't get enough of his outing with Anna Maria Jopek on "Upojenie". Not only is the music outstanding, but so is the recording quality.
Enjoy the music.
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I don't know if Julie London has been mentioned in this thread or not. I mentioned her excellence in a thread I started a couple months ago and she only got a little love from few posters. The more I listen to her, the more I realize she is an uncrowned queen of ballads. So much beauty and perfection in her voice that it boggles my mind.
"What Is This Thing Called Love?"
"Blue Moon"
"What's New?"
"Willow Weep For Me"
"Cry Me a River"
"A Cottage For Sale"
"Don't Worry Bout Me"
"S'Wonderful"
"Go Slow"
"Doncha Go Away Mad"
"Gone With the Wind"
"You Do Something To Me"
"You're Getting To Be A Habit With Me"
"Laura" |
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This is great news. Thanks for the heads up, Albert. Went to your link and right there on the first page of their catalog is one of my favorite records. Gary Burton's "Seven Songs For Qt. and Chamber Orchestra". This is going to cost me some money. |
One of the guys in my music group told me about this last night. ECM has gone back to the original tapes and is reissuing the material that put them on the map. 180 gram vinyl albums, as CDs, and as high-resolution download files I ordered four 180 G LPs last night via Amazon where they are offered at discount and free two day shipping with Prime membership. I'll post opinion once I hear a couple of these but I expect the Keith Jarrett will absolutely make me happy. |
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Rok...I checked out the track listings for the 1960 and 1961 cd's on Amazon. The compilations have the makings of a winner if the sound quality holds up. Be sure to let us know.
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O-10:
I have added the following to my cart:
25 Best Jazz Tunes of 1960 2CD
25 Best Jazz Tunes of 1961 2CD
Birth of Soul Jazz 2CD
Evolution: The Road To Giant Steps 4CD
Playing It Cool: Classic West Coast Jazz 2CD
Beat Generation Jazz 2CD
They are all from the same label that produced the 100 best of the 1950's.
Not much info concerning sound quality. I will try the 1960 & 1961, plus the Coltrane set first. Will report after I have listened to them.
The Coltrane set is him as leader and with other groups as band member. Seems to be a good selection.
Most of this music I have, it's like paying someone to make complilations of the best. And as you said, they do sound better than the original album.
I am sort of nervous about the BEAT Jazz thingy. I remember trying to read "Naked Lunch". Sort of put me off the BEAT generation.
Cheers |
Well fellows, in regard to my dilemma, I've done all I can do, now it's in the hands of a higher power.
Rachell seems to have stirred up a lot of controversy, and that's a good thing. I find it amazing how aficionados can disagree, and at the same time agree.
While Frogman's post was, as usual, very accurate; especially when you compare Rachell to great jazz vocalists of the past; however, I attribute her over the top expressions to originality, and that's a good thing, but she sounded best, "sight unseen".
Rok, nothing has changed in regard to which tunes on that compilation we like best; however, just the other day, I was thinking about how they're better than my original LP's, and I'm eagerly awaiting your post on this latest compilation.
Enjoy the music.
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I find it difficult to watch her sing. I prefer to just listen. Way too much "mugging". |
****I think she is at her best singing things like this:***
I tend to agree, but I could do without all the histrionics that passes for 'feeling' and 'soul' these days.
Cheers |
O-10:
Revisited the "100 best from the 1950's" box set today. Listened to CD5 and CD6. On CD5, thru the miracle of science, Paul Gonsalves' solo has been restored to it's rightful place on "Diminuendo and Crescendo in Blue"
The last six tracks are just an embarrassment of riches.
CD6 includes the tunes that started this thread, "Moanin'" and "Along Came Betty". Great stuff, but I think Johnny Griffin's "Cherokee" and Bill Evans' "Peace Piece" may have taken top honors.
Can't get enough of this box set. Wonderful sound quality. I have found a few more box sets by the same folks,'Chrome Dreams'. Will try to determine if they are as good.
Cheers |
Learsfool:
What struck be about the Armstrong CDs was that they start off playing as an ensemble. Almost dixieland, and as more instruments are added, gradually Louis begins to stand out from the ensemble. The Jazz solo?
The female vocals from that era are wonderful also.
If I were into LPs today, I would be afraid to play them. Even back in the day, I only played them once, and that was as I taped them to RTR.
Cheers |
The Frogman:
I agree with all your commentary on Ferrell. I still love the clip, but I felt she was just passing thru.
Her vocal fireworks sort of reminded me of Patti LaBelle.
But I always feel a sense of awe and admiration when people put on performances like that. It takes guts, because there is always the chance it will fall flat and on deaf ears. She kept going untill she had them!
The scatting struck me as being a spontaneous outbrust. With Ella, you would have assumed the composer wrote it into the tune.
LULU: There is always a chance I will like it simply because Julia Migenes-Johnson is still in it. I have her doing CARMEN on DVD with Domingo. The cover art comes close to being for 'adults only'. Love it!
Cheers |
****Amazing how musical taste can evolve.**** Yup! Sometimes, without even realizing it. I think it happens when we are open to the idea that our own musical taste is simply that, our own and nothing more; a certain amount of musical humility is a good thing. Then, before one knows it, music that sounded unbearable previously can sometimes become beautiful. It's about personal growth in our understanding of music in general. The process snowballs; before you know it, even "Lulu" will make sense and it's strange beauty can be understood. The trick, however, is knowing when the music is simply not very good. That's part of the process too; after a while one just knows it and the judgment becomes more than simply an expression of our own taste (which, of course, will always be part of the equation; but, it will be in a better place). Jutta Hipp is, I think, a great example of this. I agree with you assessment of Hipp. Yeah, she can sort of get around the piano and she has a decent grasp of the language; but, with a definite (musical) accent. But, compared to the playing of the standard bearers, it's just not up to par. Hipp, in spite of her name, ain't too. Finally had a chance to listen to the Ferrell clip; it can't be downloaded using an IPad and my wife and kids rule the computer :-). I did listen to a few other clips of hers that I could download. She is a phenomenal singer with amazing range and stylistic control. I had not heard her work, but had read a lot about her and, frankly, was suspicious of all the raves. She really is an amazing talent who can also write and plays the piano very well. Thanks for turning me on to her. I will say, however, that she strikes me as being at her best in a r&b or soul bag. Of all the clips that I heard of hers the one you posted, while really good, was not my favorite. This will sound as more critical than is intended, but I just don't think she is grounded in jazz the way that the great jazz singers are. To me, she is (in spite of her formidable vocal prowess) an r&b singer stretching out into jazz; the way Aretha does. The scatting (if one can call it that in this case) does not have the shape and structure of classic jazz improvisation. Not that it has to, but not only does it strike me as a little "over the top" as you suggest, but it just doesn't ring coherent for me. I think she has a tendency to overuse her amazing repertory of vocal calisthenics. Less would definitely be more in this case. Personally, I think she is at her best singing things like this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w2uD_MUu55U |
Rok, those Louis Armstrong Hot Five and Hot Seven albums are fantastic, I've got them on LP, pretty good copies. |
Since all music lovers are History enthusiast:
http://guardianlv.com/2014/04/british-pathe-uploads-85000-historical-videos-to-youtube-video/
Awesome resource. Recently released by British Pathe.
Cheers |
Recent Acquisitions:
Louis Armstrong -- HOT FIVES AND SEVENS
Like being in the delivery room when Jazz, as we now know it, was being born. 4-CD box set. Extremely good sound quality, all things considered. This is the JSP issue.
While looking thru old paperwork came across a printout of all my Jazz recordings on LP. These records were purchased starting in the late 60's. Amazing how musical taste can evolve.
Back then I was heavy into Cannonball, MJQ, Quincy Jones, Herbie Mann, Maynard Ferquson, Oscar Peterson Jimmy Smith.
I guess you could call them 'accessible'. First 'deep' guy was Miles.
A few that stood out:
Ken Nordine -- CLASSIC COLLECTION OF WORD JAZZ vol 3. I remember I filed this one under W, as in WTF!?! I you-tubed it this morning, and it is as silly now as it was then.
Jutta Hipp -- AT THE HICKORY HOUSE
German female pianist. I got this one because I was in Germany at the time and could not image Germans playing Jazz. Still can't.
Wiki says she played Jazz in Germany during the war, and after the war, went to NYC and there, she lost her nerve. Could not handle the big leagues.
I would have thought that if she could play under the noses of the gestapo, she could handle anything NYC could throw at her. Guess not. A lot of Jazz talent in NYC during that period.
Also had a few by IRAKERE. One titled "Chekere Son". I assumed that was the English word 'Son'. You learn something everyday.
Cheers |
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Rok2id...good list. Thank you.
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For Jazz Aficionados:
http://wreckhouse.wordpress.com/2010/03/30/ten-of-the-best-jazz-websites-on-the-internet/
Cheers |
Glad to hear from you, O-10, and glad to know you are still reading, if not posting! |
O-10, I started to post on several occasions to ask if you were alright, but knew that you would let us know when ready. Glad you are back and that you are able to prevail over whatever it is that life has thrown your way. One thing is certain, music always helps a great deal; it feeds the spirit. Welcome back. This one's for you: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-xGPHseCQrI |
O-10,
I could not believe my eyes when I saw your post!! Welcome back!! You have been greatly missed.
I hope you will be able to post more often in the future.
Since I now know you will reading, I will now have to choose my words more carefully.
Of course I am happy you agree about the Ferrell clip. I received one of her CDs yesterday titled "Rachelle Ferrell". Along with one by Kenny Burrell, "Bluesy Burrell".
I will report when I have listened to them both.
Again, welcome back!
Cheers!! |
Rok, I'm still alive. Although life's changes put me up against a wall, I had to respond to that Rachell Farrell clip. It's what jazz is all about; she put every ounce of her heart into it, making the statement, "This is who I am".
Every second of that clip was outstanding; all of the artists were allowed to speak, and each spoke quite eloquently.
Frogman, I admire your in depth explanations of things most jazz aficionados don't know, but are eager to learn.
I want Leersfool and Acman3 to know I appreciate their input as well. Although I won't be posting, I'll continue to read everyone's posts religiously.
Keep up the good work Rok.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I resisted giving you a hard time re Phil Woods in my previous post, but now that you brought the subject of your unforgivable transgression and oversight up again....:-)
Phil Woods is indeed one of the greats. Has been for a long time and I am glad that you have discovered him and that "he is everywhere" now (on your radar).
I will check out Ferrell and report back. Thanks. |
Chazro, thanks for the comments. Your point is well taken, but classic son predates what we now know as salsa. As usual when trying to establish timelines re the evolution of a music form the lines get blurred. As you point out, son is a key ingredient in salsa, but before the brassy, big-band like salsa bands came to be (with their complex arrangements, perhaps in part due to the influence of the American dance bands), son was performed with much simpler instrumentation and had a much "folksier" vibe. The guitar was at the forefront and would be replaced later by the piano and the percussion used a generally lighter touch. The overall rhythmic feeling, structure and other elements such as call and response and vocal improvisation is like and became the heart of salsa, as you point out. Classic son: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YDp3l-syaWcOne thing is undeniable, it swings like crazy, as you say. This is a classic "guajira (-son)". "Lamento Guajiro". Trans. "Countryboy's Lament". Cuban blues? http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_5bY6WM3-W4Beautiful stuff! |
The Frogman:
Thanks for the informative answer. I suspected it would be Country or Blues. Now I know.
Apparently, when I was dissing Woods, I didn't know who I was messing with! He ranks with the best.
All of you completely ignored my link of Rachelle Ferrell doing 'Autumn Leaves'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u34fj0fdFDM I can't get enough of it.
At 4:24, check out Petrucciani. Seems as if his expression is saying, " I hope this babe ain't going postal on us" I love it!!
Seems like Shorter also shares our OP's tailor. Just love this clip. You can love it, or think it's over the top, but you cannot ignore it!!
Cheers |
****What American genre would be comparable to Son? Not in style, but place in the society's musical history.****
Great and fascinating question!
First of all, yes, some (not all; strictly speaking) of the music on BVSC is "son"; one of the big hits from that record "Chan Chan" is definitely a "son". I think the answer to your question is found in the name of another Cuban music style, "Guajira". The two are similar and sometimes a song may be described as "Guajira-Son". The well known song "Guantanamera" is a guajira ("Guantanamera, guajira Guantanamera....."). The non-musical, literary definition of "guajira/o" is: a person from the countryside. The lyrics of these songs often speak about the beauty of the a Cuban countryside. "Son" is basically Cuba's country music; a kind of hill-billy music.
However, when one considers that son, guajira, and other forms morphed into what would later be known as salsa, the genre probably most representative of and recognizable as Cuba's musical identity, it is not too much of a stretch to look at son as Cuba's blues. The blues, as we all know, is a key ingredient of jazz, the genre generally considered America's most important musical contribution. From this standpoint, the two are very similar. |
I've always felt a valid comparison can be made to Son/Salsa (latin dance music) and the time when Big Band Jazz + vocalists was the Pop music of America. Those big bands had complex charts, mighty brass sections, tremendous vocalists that very often got into vocal improv (scatting), but most importantly, they swung like mofos and people actually danced their asses off. The exact same thing can be said about the Son/Salsa bands!
I've owned 'Salsa Meets Jazz' since it 1st came out 25 yrs ago! Yesterday was Tito's birthday (4/20)! Nice to see some appreciation for the great Phil Woods. |
Today I listened to:
Tito Puente and His Latin Ensemble -- SALSA MEETS JAZZ
featuring Phil Woods. Seems like over night this guy is everywhere!
I eventually ended up doing some reading on Cuban 'Son' music and Salsa.
Is the music played by The Buena Vista Social Club on their huge hit, 'Son'?
What American genre would be comparable to Son? Not in style, but place in the society's musical history.
Cheers |
Nice. Getting old indeed; didn't recognize the great George Cables at first. Used to go hear him at the Vanguard in Dexter's qt. back in the eighties; great player. David Weiss sounds very good on trpt. When Cables started to play I thought they were going to go into a slightly slower version of this classic (same chord voicing) : http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hwmRQ0PBtXU |
Acman3:
Nice tune. I would have liked it more (the video), if all the players had parts to play during the entire tune. The brass guys walking off while the sax soloed was sort of unseemly. IMHO!!!!!
These guys are getting old. I thought all my Jazz favorites just stopped aging as I have. Thanks for sharing.
Cheers |
