sashav OP Yeah I’ve heard the earlier big ATC 3 way actives for an afternoon, much better maybe not sterile, but still cold, probably had analog active xovers inside and no digital processing going on. (i didn’t get to find out) But to me they were still fatiguing after a while, good if you played nothing but rock! Maybe they have cheap active xovers or Class-D amps inside that didn’t agree with me on middle of the road or classical or jazz. in the upper mids and highs. Cheers George |
@georgehifi
Beside Kii, did you hear any other active speakers, maybe some PSI Audio or ATCs?
If so, did you notice the same sterile sound devoid of harmonics?
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@b_limo
Re: room modes, I will deal with them in other ways, it is not not the driving factor, I will not make selection of speakers based on their ability (or not) to deal with room modes through DSP.
I am interested in educated opinions about digital vs analog cross-over speakers and specific examples of both, PSI Audio vs. Kee/D&D.
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“To clarify my question, I do not care about EQ, room modes, etc.”
to further clarify, are these the room modes you are not concerned about... “Room modes are caused by sound reflecting off of various room surfaces. There are three types of modes in a room: axial, tangential, and oblique”
If these are the “room modes” you are talking about, I think most of agree that they are in fact something you should be concerned about, if good sound is also a concern. There are of course, different ways to address them. |
sashav OP
Kii Three vs. actives with analog crossover Listened to the Kii’s for quite a while seemed to be very detailed, very etched, very impressive, very sterile. I could not warm to them no matter what the Kii rep tried to make it sound human. To me there seems to be so much processing going on, it feel/sounds as if it robs all the harmonics from the music, and what your left with is the fundamental with no harmonic decay structure. And say good by to your cherished dac and amp/s, as they are not needed anymore, you have to use what they give inside, and who knows what they are, as well as being punished by a multitude Class-D amps they use. Cheers George |
I would not get caught up in the after market drivers/amplification vs proprietary thing. The only thing that matters is how it all works together to provide the musical experience that you are looking for. Plenty of possible problems could be had with finding parts if the sole source company goes out of business. Many well known and highly regarded companies use off the shelf because they are that good. Some tweak them a little for their specific design goals. Final implementation and synergy is everything.
Trust your ears and pick the supplier that has the best record for customer service and longevity. I cannot comment on the other differences as they are not in my field of study. |
To clarify my question, I do not care about EQ, room modes,
etc. I am interested to hear about experience with and opinions about 3-way
speakers employing digital (DSP) active cross-over (examples being Kii Three
and D&D8c) vs. 3-way speakers employing analog active cross-over (examples
being PSI Audio A23-M, ATCSCM50ASL).
If you look at those examples, PSI Audio A23-M is using propitiatory tweeter
and midrange drives developed in house, with propitiatory amplification using
unique technology such as Adaptive Output Impedance error correction feedback
system which according to them allows for superb control of excursion. They
also do phase compensation what is evident in impulse response and transients
reproduction. All of this done in analog domain, what according to them is the
proper way, not employing DSP. This certainly sounds like proper approach.
On the other hand, Kii Three does active cross-over in digital
domain employing DSP. They also do phase compensation as well as cardioid
dispersion pattern in low-mids and bass which is certainly beneficial, and
their DSP processing seems to be very well done, what is all great, but on the
other hand they use off-the-shelf drivers and amplification.
So I am interested to hear how these compare based on actual
experience and/or in lack of the actual experience opinions based on some sound
engineering knowledge (not marketing info, and not some biased pointless arguments
not founded in anything).
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So I meant to say this, above:
One of the main reasons I would not go with a fully active speaker system is I love the sound of my electronics, and speakers. I love how my DAC and amp sound. I’ve had ICEpower Class D amps and it was very good, but not this good. Barring a lottery win I'm on my last amp.
nCore/Bruno make fine gear, they really do, but if you go that route you buy the package, and god knows with so much stuff I should get rid of here maybe I should too. :)
I think if they accomplish the room acoustic integration, along with good sounding EQ and tuning, it's surely going to be a great speaker system.
Best,
E
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I have had the pleasure of meeting and listening with the designers of the Kii III on several occasions. Each listening session has been a revelation. I have been amazed and left scratching my head each time while checking my bank balance. Go and demo with your own music and source if possible. If you have any doubts about how they will perform in your system ask for an in home trial before committing. Move them around in the room to see how well they image regardless of room acoustics thank to the DSP processing.
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@b_limo
You can argue that there are pro’s but also cons. Don’t get me wrong, DSP processing of audio is fabulously flexible, and I rely on it for my living room in both Roon and to EQ my sub.
The main argument against a DSP crossover really is the quality of the ADC/DAC combination. You buy a nice Berkeley, Mytek or whatever brand DAC, and you feed.... dsp based speakers? To me that makes no sense as the DSP must:
1 - Convert the analog to digital using an ADC
2 - Process it
3 - Convert the digital into analog
Now, if you can do this all in the digital domain before the signal hits the system, like with say a digital preamp, or Roon, then no problem.
An active/analog XO still has potential drawbacks, including the quality of the components and the additional analog stages that must be put in line, which will introduce flavors, distortion and noise of their own.
In either case, you’ll need more amps.
With a passive, speaker level crossover you ALSO introduce a number of issues, like reduced efficiency (due to voltage square vs. power) and the need to spend WAY too much to get great components, but you only buy a stereo amp for 2 speakers. :)
This is why to me, at the end of the day the whole package/end result is what matters most. I have to say though that the idea of having say, a digital pre amp that feeds the speakers a digital signal, and no additional amps is pretty damn sweet sounding. :) Meridian sure was ahead of their time here.
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It sounds like you are trapped in marketing spiel, none of which will get you to happy. Remember that no matter what the technology chosen, it is the designer’s ear and how the speaker integrates into the room and your other components that matter. You can’t be an arm-chair speaker designer and attempt to guess which is going to sound better by reading the lit. There are pros and cons to each of the points you make in the OP. I would read the Stereophile review of the Kii, not to believe the reviewer, you should not, but read the points he makes, and see if you hear the same things when evaluating each speaker, and whether those points matter to you: https://www.stereophile.com/content/kii-audio-three-loudspeaker-page-2I will say that in general, being able to EQ the bass response of a speaker can really enhance the experience. Whether this happens in your streamer (like Roon) or the speakers, in the digital or analog domain is another story. Best, E |
