For those who were following a post we started a few weeks ago about considering bringing in Krell gear here is our follow up post after we just received the display gear.
We had 0 interest in adding Krell to our product portfolio before attending the Capitol Audio Fest we almost missed the room it was on the First floor in the back and it was VPI's room and we are not VPI dealers so it was almost a fluke that we even poked in. The huge Wilson Alex's were beckoning us in, so we decided to take a brief listen.
The sound in this room was mesmerizing, someone played Lou Reed's Walk on the Wild Side and there in three dimensions was Lou Reed and the three back up vocalisits, the sound was smooth, engaging, transparent, and has a sense of presence that made you take notice.
So we started looking at the setup, VPI table $15k, Soundsmith cart $8k $110k Wilson speakers, lot of expensive Nordost Vallahalla or Odin but what was driving this insanely good sounding rig there in the bottom of the rack were two Krell 300XD amplifiers and a Krell preamp.
Here was the best sound at this entire show, and the electronics were a fraction of the price of all of the other reference setups which were $80k monoblocs amplifers, $40k reference preamps and other such expensive gear.
So we figured we would give the Krell a try part of the reason was logistics, powering our Paradigm Persona 9H is a $50k set of the phenominal T+A electronics from Germany, a $19.5K 300 Watt power amplifier, a $16.5 preamplifier and an optional outboard power supply at $13.5.
We have no issue with this gear it is incredible, however, we didn't have in this room a set or electronics which we thought would really give the T+A stuff a run for its money and yet be more affordable, so the Krell 300XD amp at $10,500 plus their Illusion 2 preamp/dac at $8k we thought would bring the price of doing a top notch system with the Personas down a bit in price and perhaps be a nice addition to our other electronics lines of T+A and Naim for top of the line solid state gear.
We hooked up the new Krell gear yesterday and even after only 24 hours of break in the sonic signature is very similar to what we heard at the Capital Audio Fest.
The new Krell gear was liquid in the midrange, with nylon strings having the right type of roundness that makes acoustic guitar sound so right, tight well defined midbass, excellent rhythmic control, good top end extension with a slighly soft warm top end, and a big dimensional soundstage.
One of our questions is are there anyone on the boards who has this combo in particular the 300XD power amplifier and the illusion 2 preamp/dac we are currious to the affects of break in and how they improve.
The sound after only 24 hours of initial plug in and break in the gear is allready sounding ridiculous good how much better does it get and in what ways?
Whatever the technology involved in Krell's new integrated, I must say it was the best sound I heard at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest (used with the very inexpensive Anti-Cables no less!). I sure hope this really is Krell making a comeback. I've been pretty disappointed in their products in past decade or more (including the Vanguard series). They needed to make improvements.
However, I hate to ask - But At What Cost? It seems their foray into more "affordable" products in past 2 decades was part of their demise. So now that they're back, will anyone be able to afford it?
... seems unfair to other authorized Krell dealers in the NJ / NY area that you undermine the dealer network by pimping Krell on a forum....
Pardon me, but audiotroy hasn’t "pimped" anything. They have posted on this site well within the forum’s rules, and it isn’t clear how their opinions "undermine" Krell’s dealer network in any way. If they had, I’d think those dealers would complain here, or to Krell, or to Audiogon moderators. But it doesn’t look like any of that has happened.
... a forum also where new hobbiests rely on unbiased views of equipment’s performance and value .
Huh? People come to Internet forums for "unbiased views?" You must be joking.
They should vet their dealers properly then... I heard all I needed to when learning that buying three Krell pieces sight unseen is all that's required to be a dealer .... that's funny. Great criteria for choosing partners ....most of their dealers are AV or home automation specialists. Krell lost it's way a long time ago....
Oddiofyl we never trashed Krell, if you actually read any of our posts you would see that only after hearing Krell at the Capitol Audio Fest and only with the recent XD mods did we have any interest in Krell at all.
The setup of Krell 300 XD two at $10,500 each and a $7k Illusion preamp were the cheapest electronics driving a $110k worth of loudspeakers at this entire show and the Krell/Wlilson/Vpi room sounded the best of all of them, hence our interest in Krell.
Also there are tons of people who did not love the new Krell products until recently, when they heard the XD mods that Dave Goodman came up with when we was designing the K300i integrated.
Look at the Tone audio review comparing new XD amplifer vs an older non XD amplfier
"
The folks at Krell are calling this “The New Sound of Krell,” but I submit that they’ve just returned to what made them great in the first place, bringing it up to date with the best advances in audio technology that have come our way in the last few decades. I’d say they’ve found their way back home. "
As per flavor of the month, we are allways checking out new gear, we have a Coda 8 series on order as well, recent additions Lumin T2, and Critical Mass products.
As to the issue of whether or not Krell is "rebranding", I can relate that at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest last October, I visited the Krell room often because it sounded so good. And every time I did, CEO Walter Schofield was telling everyone, and I quote: "Krell is trying to relaunch its brand" and "Krell is rebranding with this new integrated amp."
Oddiofyl first of all people on this forum can purchase from whomever they wish, which includes both us and other Krell dealers.
Most of the dealers who sell Krell would welcome any assistance in promoting the line, they are coming back from a dark point in their recent history it is with the new XD series and the K300i that Krell is restoring the luster to this once proud brand.
Also many people would want to hear the products, which means that those local people might just check out Krell because of us, at their local dealer, works both ways doesn’t it?
As per the website Krell will be launching a new website which is why we are not currently listed do you honestly think we would be talking about a product we haven’t heard nor display with this degree of certainty?
And per websites this is what many people find when searching for us
this is our new website which should be launching in Feb it is still in beta and not finished yet. Product pages are missing, etc. Go to about us and look under products to see for yourself what we represent, Krell included.
Seems unfair to other authorized Krell dealers in the NJ / NY area that you undermine the dealer network by pimping Krell on a forum.... a forum also where new hobbiests rely on unbiased views of equipment's performance and value .
Jafant thank you and Technk thank you will be posting some more pics.
Oddiofyl, yes at this stage we are, do you honestly thiink we would be promoting a product that we didn't own or have not directly tested?
We are praising the new Krell products because they are really, really, good and are very competitive with more expensive products.
There never was a probationary period, we had to purchase three pieces of gear without hearing it hence our first post seeking advice from owners. A couple of people with the Krell XD series wrote back and loved the new gear so we went ahead with it.
After having listned to the 300XD the Illusion 2 preamp with dac board and the K300i we can report this is a very musical line of solid state gear.
Denon1 yes they use fans, never heard them come on at all totally silent.
We are running the 300XD and the Illusion 2 with dac option with the Persona 9H and the sound is really exceptional: big soundstage, good midbass punch and dynamics, the bass is quite good not as uber slammy as the reference gear, the midrange and top end of this gear is stunning rich, organic, and flowing, also there is not a much front to back image float vs the uber rig however, we are litterally using a $1k digital board which is the cheapest digital source in the room vs our $8k $17k $22k and $35k dacs we use with the uber gear.
All in all quite an accomplishment for the money the new Krell gear is really exceptional the looks also kind of grow on you. Not as great looking as the T+A gear but still kind of cool and business like.
Frank you should be in for a treat the new XD version of the amplifiers has an organic quality that is very unlike most solid state amplifiers the sound just flows, the best example of this is that strings and piano keys have a glowing roundness that just sounds beautiful.
All the amplifers seem to have a better rhythemic pace than past Krell amplifers. Past Krell amps that we had included the KSA 250s and the 450MCX.s.
The new XD versions are just much more musically involving than the older Krell products which were clean with good bass and dynamics but sounded much more artificial.
Krell Fan truer words could not be said our reference stack of electronics and digital is upwards of $70k and we are now breaking in a Krell 300XD amplifier and an Illusion 2 preamp with dac board and the sound isn't quite as good as the big stuff, but I am willing to bet if we blindfolded someone they would not think the uber expensive stuff is worth nearly 5 times the cost.
The illusion 2 is very surprising the digital board is clearly out of date without ethernet connectivity no DSD, and only 192k sampling rate however with that being said the sound of the board is really really good and for a $1k is a great value for a very listenable digital experience.
It is nice to see such a venerated American company is on its way back.
I attended the Rocky Mountain Audiofest in October and heard the K-300i, chatted with David and Walter, and based on what I HEARD I extrapolated that of course the dedicated amp and big brother to this unit - the Duo 300 XD - HAD to sound AT LEAST as good as the baby brother “all in one,” and I was right.
I have owned 3 Krell amps since the mid 80’s and most recently was in possession of the 400 FPBcx. I am happy to report this AMAZING amplifier is easily beyond impressive, delivering all of the wonderful sonic qualities alluded to in the post here. I thought it was impossible that this eco-friendly Class A amp drawing only one watt in standby mode could equal, let alone surpass the sonic quality of my 400 FPBcx “muscle car.” The amplifier BLEW it away. Just fabulous. As an aside, I had listened to the NON XD version and was not compelled to trade up. There is magic in what David accomplished here with the introduction of XD platform and there is simply hands down, no comparison. I traded up to the Duo 300 XD and couldn’t be happier. The amp drives my Confidence C2 speakers and am using the Krell Foundation prepro for both 2.0 stereo and home theater and I am in musical nirvana. This amp is musical, involving, highly detailed and delivers an entirely immersive experience with a huge soundstage . At around 10K it is quite a value.
A couple of years ago I replaced my Krell MDA-300's with a pair of Solo 575's. I first auditioned the Duo 300 in my home driving current Legacy Focus SE speakers. The Duo 300 had nice midrange and high but didn't have the bass slam of the older mono amps. Krell and my dealer arranged for me to try the Solo 575's in my home. They sounded great from day 1 and still do. I am still using my old KRC-3 preamp and see no reason to change.
I am waiting for a date to bring the amps to Krell for the upgrade. I don't expect any dramatic sonic improvement but willing to give the upgrade a try. The lower output impedance should work well with the Legacy speakers.
As for the fans... I have never heard them. Aesthetics??? Are you kidding? Large power amps never look like fine furniture. These are understated and don't stand out in the room.
I may post my impressions after the amps are upgraded.
i’ve owned several krell pieces over the years and wish them well. i personally think that departing from their distinctive aesthetic didn’t help. the gear always looked cool and you knew it was a krell. it looked expensive.. very bad marketing decision in my opinion. to come back big they need to consider serious cosmetic changes and add a great rotary volume control to go with great sound. you need all ingredients cooking for expensive audio gear to be desirable imho.
We will keep on burning in the electronics and will report back after they have been on a week or so.The performance even out of the box is quite good. The illusion II dac board is actually quite good howerver it still sounds like a starter dac it is missing some of the weight and depth of the better dacs, but again for $1k it is a good hold out for someone who is going to eventually be upgrading to a better dac.
audiotroyMy pleasure- I enjoy reading your posts from a Dealer/Retailer perspective. You guys are helpful to those of us that do not Audio representation in our immediate areas. I am looking forward to your next Krell XD update as those products settle / bloom into your systems. Keep up the excellent work. Happy Listening!
I'd like to hear/read some head to head listening impressions of the Krell vs other amps you carry, with everything else being the same.
I have zero issues if the "new" krell stuff sounds good, AND is reliable.
I was offered a killer deal on the most recent Krell AV pre-pro, and amp a few years back. It was really tempting. But, there were huge issues people had with the AV pre-amp (tough to compete with the asian high volume MFG there in fairness), and some were reporting on the amps (plus I avoid fan cooled anything when I can).
But it would be great if it's good stuff, though I will pass on it due to the fans.
That said, would love head to heads on how it differs in sound from your other lines. For instance why buy the T+A over the krell given cost differences etc.
I tend to take the view that above a certain price point, unless something is a POS, most of it is good stuff with slightly different flavors.
But even some of the XD impressions, particularly about the midrange, frankly make it sound like how I view Pass labs. Slightly warm, a bit tube-like in the midrange.
Heck, I really like a lot of what they are doing in their new integrated.
"If you want to be totally paranoid you can also view Stereophile, Absolute Sound the Audiophilic, and many of the on line reviews and reviewers also have hidden agendas. "
Cleeds and Jafant, thank you. Cleeds you have an excellent grasp of the issues at hand.
The fact that a dealer is just an end user who buys their products at wholesale, the issue or promotion vs non promotion should be left to the users and readers of these forums to make up their own minds and if the fact that we write a post praising or recomending another prouduct it is up to the individual to determine for themselves if we are believing this honestly or just promoting our brand.
The fact that most dealers believe in the quality of their products or they wouldn’t be selling them in the first place, however there are dealers that represent products that they sell because they believe the brand is easy to sell or recommend, we would site B&W and Mcintosh as good examples of this, wether or not a B&W 800 Diamond is better than a Wilson or a Rockport is a moot point, is the dealer recommending the brand because it is the best in the price range or the best in terms of name recognition?
One can also question the veracity of some of these posts made by end users who may be affiliated with, or friends with a particular dealer or manufactuer, unless they state friends of company X or cousin of or whatever you might also question their motives as well, there are also a lot of dealers and reps and others who don’t announce that they are so, we didn’t do that either until we were chastisted that is was wrong and now all of our posts state Audio Doctor dealer.
If you want to be totally paranoid you can also view Stereophile, Absolute Sound the Audiophilic, and many of the on line reviews and reviewers also have hidden agendas.
The fact that we have many fans who read our posts and we get calls about that many people find our posts beneficial and balanced.
For those that say we haven’t tested every other amp vs the Krell that is a fact, the other fact is our reference gear the T+A products out of Germany are considered to be among the best of the best brands such as Gryphon and D’agastino makes a very well established benchmark.
Timlub everything you say is fairly accurate. The reality of our first post was less of a promotional piece but to actually gain some persepective from end users who purchased the new XD amplifiers.
We did hear from a few owners who had gotten the XD upgrade and was pleased with the overall sound quality. As a dealer we usually get samples to play with without having to commit to the line in the case of Krell they could not honor that request, as they had no samples that were not in the field at reviewers.
So we were pretty sure we were going to get the line, but not 100% more like a 70-90% certainty we were going to try the products because of the fantastic demo at the Capitol Audio Fest and as stated above and a desire to have another line of electronics that would be less expensive then the T+A gear.
The post then became a spirl of people like HK and Oddifyl.
The fact is we all need to be less sensitive about what constitutes "promotion." One person's promotion is anyother person's discovery.
... as an ex
manufacturer from one company, a manufactures ref for several others and
a retailer myself, I really don't blame you for pushing the
envelope. Just don't take offense when you offend others.
I'm confounded that anyone here is "offended" by audiotroy's posts. There is nothing in Audiogon's terms of use that forbids such posts. A reader should always consider the source, just as he should with the hobbyists here who opine on equipment they've never heard, or quote technical information that they don't understand.
audiotroyNice initial review of the new Krell XD. I look forward in reading more as the products break-in appropriately. Update after the first 100 hours of playtime has been reached, leading up to around 500 hours total. Happy Listening!
If the Krell is as good as you say, this is a very smart business decision. I had a very good T+A preamp. I took a bath selling it. With Krell’s history, If a piece comes out and reviews say that it is incredible, audiophiles believe that review. With pieces like T+A or Micromega, It takes a huge amount of favorable ruckus to overcome the "Unknown factor". Something like a Krell or Pass comes along and it is just believable that the gear can be that good. I suspect that these will sell well for you. I agree that you wrote the post in a promotional manner and get tired of such things in our forum, but as an ex manufacturer from one company, a manufactures ref for several others and a retailer myself, I really don't blame you for pushing the envelope. Just don't take offense when you offend others.
So if formal reviewers said the same thing then you would have no problem with that correct?
If you follow our threads we called attention to a Micromega M100 an intergrated amp with dac and streamer that we thought was one of the best sounding products at its price range and boom guess what other people who purchased these units not from us by the way, reported the same thing, that the unit sounded and performed superbly and are in love with the sound that was before any published review, how did we know the Micromega was good becuase we were able to compare it to an NAD M32, a Naim Uniti Star, an Anthem STR, a Mytek amp and dac combo and a Nuprime amp and dac combo.
HK what you fail to understand is that there are not a lot of dealers who continue to bring in new lines vs the existing lines they have carried for years we pursue new and exciting products all the time providing they make sense based on their perceived price and performance.
"Initially, there’s no comparison between the two current models – the jump in resolution and musicality is massive. It’s like they are channeling the sound that made Krell famous, while incorporating the changes in technology that have come to be over the last 35 years."
"For some time, Krell amplification had taken on a bit of a forward, hyperdetailed sound. The new XD amplifiers have returned to more of that slight bit of warmth and tonal saturation, combined with a level of bass slam that made Krell famous. I’ll stick my neck out here and guess that this is a sound that more true music lovers might enjoy, and I’d put the tonality of the current XD amplifier more in the same ballpark as the other solid-state, Class-A amplifiers I truly love: vintage Krell, vintage Levinson, Pass, and Luxman. More of that kind of sound."
"The folks at Krell are calling this “The New Sound of Krell,” but I submit that they’ve just returned to what made them great in the first place, bringing it up to date with the best advances in audio technology that have come our way in the last few decades. I’d say they’ve found their way back home. "
By your arguement the only way anyone can find out about new products is from end users posting on line which is fine but in reality what do you learn, you learn that amp x was better then amp y in this guys system, in our store we have many different products to choose from if that doesn’t put into perspective what does?
The best reviews are ones when the poster tested a whole bunch of products in the same way on the same system.
The fact that in this market you have very few dealers who have a selection in the New York area you have several major dealers who all sell Mcintosh, and Focal as some of their core products, this is not an indictment against them, but why do many dealers sell Mcintosh is it because their gear is taking audio in new directions or is it because Mcintosh is an easy comfortable brand that laypeople like the looks of as well as the storied history of the brand?
If you have an issue with us, don’t read our posts. There are many people who have found our reviews and findings postive, if you think the entire audiogon community is rushing to us to purchase products from us you are sorely mistaken.
The point is that the new Krell products are really fantastic and deserve to be promoted, purchased and enjoyed not because of us or because of a review, because they are really, really good sounding.
"HK Fan, wow if an end user posted this you would have no problem would you. "
Absolutely not. A consumer doesn't have a vested interest in publishing glowing reviews. A dealer can't say that now can they?
It's disingenuous at best and I'm happy to see most Audiogon readers agree based on the now deleted original thread, and the replies to your new ad, I mean independent 3rd party review.
HK Fan, wow if an end user posted this you would have no problem would you.
The fact that we are reporting that what the gear is doing and asking a valid question about burn in is that an advertisement as well?
We are not doing this with or without Walters blessing, if Walter has an issue than we will be happy to take down the post.
Dep14, where do we say in any of these posts that the Krell is superior or inferior to anything? The amps are sounding truly magical, after the electronics are burned in we will do a true head to head vs the T+A gear which is way more expensive.
The reality is we know how our Persona 9H sound with $50k worth of T+A electronics, which are rated in the uber echelon of audio gear, and right now with a bit of playing time the speakers are sounding quite fantastic, with $18k worth of Krell electronics and that is including the built in dac vs the $17-35k digital front ends we normally play with the $50k T+A stack, don’t you think that is a good indicator of how good or not good this Krell gear is?
We are happy to point out ways ours are different, in the case of Pass you may not have a fan, the Krell amplifiers fans you just don’t hear at all, the Krell amplifers have an intelligent bias scheme which gives you class A with less heat the Pass labs do not, the Krell amplifiers are less expensive the Pass 350.8 is $14,500 for 350 watts class A/B the Krell 300xd is $10,500 for 300 watts Class A the Pass labs amplifier is 125 lbs the Krell 90 lbs.
The honest fact that we don’t sell Pass makes a true side by side comparison impossible that is for people on the boards to do we would welcome a side by side comparison. Pass Labs amplifiers are very good we have had people check out the T+A gear vs the Pass Labs gear and these people have picked T+A over Pass Labs and that included a $12,500 Pass Labs integrated vs a $11,500 T+A 2500R integrated.
The fact that Pass Labs are much larger, way heavier, and their Class A amplifiers are rated by users to generate heat like a furnace do not speak to practicallity so we are not too interested in using an amplifier which has those characteristics.
As per sound quality Pass is known for being a warm sounding amplifier so is the new Krell. We have heard Pass Labs at clients homes and at shows and they are very good, there are certain qualities in the sound of these new Krell products that does seem to be unique to Krell, this glowing quality in the midrange and a very tube like sound, seems to be a hallmark of the XD circuit, the amplifers seem to be very quick as well.
DP we sell as you pointed out many excellent amplifiers right now we can compare the Krell to Parasound Halo amplifiers, T+A amplifiers, Conrad Johnson, Electrcompaniet, Anthem STR amplifier, Cary Audio, Manly Labs amplifiers and we have a BAT VK 255se are all possible comparisons as well as the Naim gear.
The point is when you have been doing this professionally for 30 years you tend to be able to judge a product fairly quickly sometimes you have to really play with a product for a while and sometimes you don’t.
The fact that we are really super excited by the Krell amplifiers is testement to how good they really are.
I rarely critique posts, but it sure does seem Troy, that your posts fall into one of two categories.
1. Pure promotion
2. The (enter products) that you (poster) own, or are considering are “ok” but this product that we sell is better. So instead of answering the question in the post, you should consider buying this from us instead...
You carry lots of good brands, no question. But maybe focus on differences between yours and others as opposed to typically always positioning yours as better.
For instance, have you done a head to head with the 300xd and another amp, say a pass labs 250.8 on the same price range? How do they sound different? Does one have fans? (yes). Well I avoid fans if I can. Are both good amps? I’m sure they are. How do they sound different...
I love how every rebuttal includes a product plug......
"The new K300i 150 watts class A power, built in Ess Sabre pro, Roon endpoint MQA buillt like a tank 52lbs, Apt X Blu Tooth, HDMI in and outputs, and it sounds fantastic $8k not cheap but not out of reach either."
I am old enough to remenber the fact that Krell has not been Krell since Dan left , or was forced out ... The KSA were what made Krell famous back then.....
Mark Levinson was screwed so badly he lost his naming rights... his own name, can never use it ever again on an audio product So if you did your homework you would know that Samsung owns Levinson and Mark Levinson is living in Switzerland building Daniel Hertz....
Oddiiofyl, if you do your Krell homework, Dan D’agistino wasn’t responsible for designing Krell’s products for years. Dave Goodman has been the chief engineer for the last 23 years and is in full charge of all of Krell’s new products.
Krell is comming back strong they are at shows, getting rave reviews, and people are talking about the brand again.
The issue they had was a hostile take over from Venture Capitalist firm a few years back which afffected the brand and then was the transition to these new radically different Ibias amplifier and new styling and to top it off pushing out Dan and Rhondi.
That was a lot of turmoil. Now Krell is owned by Rhondi Dagastino and their new XD series of products are fantastic sounding, reliablity is up and Krell is introducing exciting products again.
The new K300i 150 watts class A power, built in Ess Sabre pro, Roon endpoint MQA buillt like a tank 52lbs, Apt X Blu Tooth, HDMI in and outputs, and it sounds fantastic $8k not cheap but not out of reach either.
Ayre’s Charlie Hansen is dead yet Ayre soldigers on with new products, Mark Levinson is back as well. We should be applauding that a venderable and well loved American brand with the legacy of Krell is finally back on stable ground and doing better and better.
Yes Dep it is nice that so far the gear is sounding really fantastic.
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