Oops, the Devore Gibbon X's retail for over $15k, so you will never find a used pair even remotely close to your budget. Sorry.
Looking for speaker recommendations
I retired a couple of years ago and as a hobby have become a bit of an audiophile. I need some speaker advice from those of you who know more than I.
I listen mostly to classical and jazz. System is on most of the day for background music. I do more critical listen from 8-10 in the evening at low volume (50-60 db.)
Been buying and selling gear and my current system is a Mac computer, Teac UD-301 DAC/preamp, Classe CT-2300 amp, Vandersteen 2CE signature speakers. My listening space is a 20 X 18 foot living room with cathedral ceilings. Due to WAF restrictions, the stereo system is in a corner of the room with the speakers 10 feet apart, directed at my listening chair that is 12 feet away.
The Vandys sound nice but I suspect they are too directional for my listening space and style. I am looking for a speaker that has a more fuller sound stage and will fill the room with sound. Speakers will need to have a better WAF than the Vandys. (Wife does not like the black socks on the Vandys.)
I prefer to buy used and am looking in the $2-5K range.
My current short-list for speakers is-
Legacy-Signature SE
DeVore-Gibbon X
Any advice/recommendations would be appreciated.
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"I prefer to buy used and am looking in the $2-5K range. My current short-list for speakers is- Legacy-Signature SE DeVore-Gibbon X Any advice/recommendations would be appreciated." Sorry to break it to you, but you will never find a used Gibbon-X with that budget. They retail for just under $10k and dealers do not offer discounts. Perhaps in 10 years you could buy a used one at that price. Just sayin. |
You’re welcome. Congrats on the purchase! The CP 800 is optimized for use with its USB DAC input. I highly recommend that you use its USB DAC input to stream music. Its USB input sounded the best compared to its other inputs. In regards to PS Audio Direct Stream DAC, not too long ago there were quite of few of them offered for sale here and they were all used and quite a bit cheaper than their original MSRP since PS Audio is going to release its flagship statement DAC soon or might just already came out as we speak. But if you’re happy with the Classe CP 800 preamp/DAC then stick with it. It is a great preamp/DAC unit built around its USB input configuration signal path and I’m pretty sure it will sound significantly better than your Teac. Everyone who bought the CP 800 use its USB input to stream music as a preamp/DAC/music renderer. If you’re strictly looking for a linestage analog preamp (no DAC) I wouldn’t recommend the CP 800 as there are better options out there in similar price range as the original MSRP of the CP 800 ($6k when purchased new). But since you’re looking for a DAC/preamp combo that can perform better than your Teac so that’s why I recommended both the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC or the Classe CP 800 to pair with your Classe CA-2300 power amp and Vandy speakers. The CP 800 is more of a preamp product with built-in DAC whereas the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC is a DAC (digital source component) that happens to have a built-in digital volume control so people can use it as a DAC/preamp by setting the output to variables or use it strictly as a DAC (source component) by setting the output to fixed gain and connect it to a linestage analog preamp or analog integrated amp. With the CP 800 you have no other choice but use its volume control as a preamp/DAC and won’t be able to use it strictly as a DAC (source component) and connect it to an analog linestage preamp like you do with the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC. In other words, you won’t be able to set the output of the CP 800 to fixed gain like that of the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC. Lastly, the CP 800 has analog inputs and can be used as an analog linestage preamp whereas the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC does not have analog inputs as it is more of a DAC (source component) than it is of a preamp. |
I thought I would check back in with an update. I tried the PS Audio Stellar gain DAC for a few weeks and it sounded good but. . . My wife (the black sock hater) who has a good ear said she preferred the teac. I looked into the Direct Stream but it is out of my price range. So I located a used Classe CP-800 on Audiogon and purchased it. The unit arrived today. I have been listening for the last three hours and it really sounds WONDERFUL in my system! Makes the Vandys sing. Caphill, thanks for the CP-800 suggestion. |
As was suggested I did some research. I do like the CP-800 preamp/DAC to match my current CT-2300 amp but as I read more about the CP-800 I believe it has software issues that the company needs to address and since the company has been sold I do not see software upgrades being on the horizon. My further search has led me to the Auralic Vega preamp/DAC. Has anyone in the group had any experience with the Auralic? How will it pair with the Classe CT-2300 and the Vandy 2c sigs? As always, thanks for any advice. |
@2tuby Instead of a PS Audio Stellar DAC you should get a PS Audio Direct Stream DAC/preamp with Perfect Wave ll which is superior sonically to the Stellar DAC / pre. But I would think that the PS Audio Stellar DAC is better than what you have now. However, the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC with Perfect Wave ll will be a step up from the Stellar DAC. |
I'm a Vandy guy and would go with a set of Treo's. I fully understand what your wife is feeling. I honestly do, but you do need better electronics. the Pre and DAC are sooooo important. Go see Rutan at Audio Connection. He has the Ayre Codex DAC that is great. I'd honestly think about an integrated that Rutan carries Belles Aria that lists for 1800. Guys, this is a sick integrated. It should sell for about 5k. Yes, it's preamp is unreal. |
I have a Arye Codex for my DAC but the last time Richard Vandersteen was at Audio Connection I was talking to him about my next upgrade either amp or speaker he said the biggest change will come from the speakers and ask if I had a good frontend Nick insured him it's very good so upgraded your speakers change out my Vandy 2Ce sign II for a used pair of Quatros the model before the carbons excellent choice |
I want to thank all who have replied to my discussion question but, of course, it leads to more questions. I appears that many believe that I should replace my Teac Dac as a next step. I agree! I have read that 50%+ of a audiophile system budget goes to the speakers, what percentage goes to the Dac/preamp? 10%? 20%? I have read the discussion suggestions to look for a used Benchmark Dac2 or 3 or a Classe CP-800 but they are not that frequently found used. I would guess that the used market for these items is limited because the technology is still new? (Less than 10 years old.) Much easier to find a good price on a 10 year old amp or speakers. That being said, I have ordered a new PS Audio Stellar Dac to replace the Teac. I like the PS Audio return policy. I can audition the equipment in my listening space and make the decision. I hope the Stellar sounds significantly better than the Teac. I hope I then like the Vandys enough to keep them. But I know that probably will not be true. What a wonderful and terrible hobby this is! |
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The one quality I have found with my Focal 926s is they fill up the room. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis95c90-focal-aria-926floorstanding-speakers-excellent-demo-full-... But I agree with outhers about upgrading the DAC |
I had a pair of OHM Walsh 2's, i bought them beat up and dropped them off at OHM in RedHook, BK. Talked with John over the phone, within 2 weeks he refreshed and refinished them at a reasonable cost. I saw a bunch of veneer samples and ended up getting the redone in a beautiful maple finish. I had them for about 4 years and i will say that i have havn't heard a smoother mid range in that price category. The Omni directional design makes them really enjoyable to listen from anywhere in the room, they sound very lifelike when you are hearing them from a different room then they are playing in. My only complaint with them is they lacked low Bass, they did not dip as low as modern speakers tend to do these days. That said they were still very punchy, i found them most enjoyable for Jazz programming and music up until the late 70's is where they shined. They can be found for a couple hundred bucks, OHM now offers upgraded super drivers so you can get the Bass extension but its a bit expensive and at that price point you have many more options, i had mine redone to stock trim. You dont see many omnidirectional speakers at that price point so they are worth a try. |
(Wife does not like the black socks on the Vandys) Perhaps involve the wife in choosing new colour socks to replace the black ones or consider replacing the wife. Richard Vandersteen produces one of the best value speakers and the Model 2CE is probably the value leader. Properly set up they are convincing, outperforming many more costly alternatives. As others have mentioned, replace the front end. Your power amp is fine, try a good tube preamp and new DAC. Think Denafrips. This combo will enthrall you IF your room will allow. By that I mean paying attention to room treatment. Install some bass traps, perhaps the same colour as the Vandy's new socks :) and absorbers at the first reflection points. This addition alone would transform your system and with new preamp and R2R DAC your jaw will hit the floor. Hope its carpeted. |
About two years ago I bought Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 for about $2700 and love them. The richness of the music is better than any speaker I have ever had, especially for strings, voice, jazz, piano and rock and roll. I am not a fan of large ensemble music but when I listen to a symphony it produces a very large sound stage. I've auditioned a lot of speakers including the Magnapan 1.7i which I like, as well as the 30 when they were in a store in my area. I have listened to Linn, KEF, Focal, Magico, and ProAc but the Sonus Faber please me the most, especially for the price. |
Ok time for the curve ball, I have a pair of Decware HR-1s. They are hybrid-radials, the WAF is within spec, and they are more forgiving on placement. Due to your listening style, and content, I feel these would be a spectacular choice. http://www.decware.com/newsite/HR1.html I own two Decware amps, and I have met the maker of the HR-1s, he truly is an artist and fantastic guy! Hope this helps, Ron |
@2tuby You definitely need to take care of your DAC/preamp first before upgrading the speakers. Your Teac UD 301 DAC/preamp just can’t do justice for the rest of your setup and system. I recommend either the PS Audio DirectStream DAC with Perfect Wave ll or the Classe CP 800 stereo preamp/DAC. Either of these will be a big step up sonically from your Teac UD 301 DAC/preamp and will elevate the overall performance of your setup/system to the next level. Even the Benchmard DAC2 or DAC3 will be significant improvements from what you have now. Your Teac UD 301 DAC/preamp is fine for just playing background music but not for critical listening. Your Vandy speakers are awesome IMO and you can always change up speakers anytime you wish but first you will have to upgrade your upstream component(s) (DAC/preamp) first for critical listening. It all comes down to personal preference and taste and musical tastes when it comes to speaker choices. There are countless options out there. |
Justvinagestuff, we were a Gershman dealer and if this gentleman turns up the speakers to fill up that room he might blow a driver we had that happen to one of our clients. He needs a much bigger and more capable speaker. The Legacy's are amazing and a terrific bang for the buck loudspeaker. We have them on display so if he is 50 miles outside of NYC this might make a nice little trip for him. We also have Paradigm, Kef, Dali, and many other top notch loudspeakers. The new Quad Z4 are amazing sounding and are brand new for $4k a pair. The Quad with a good subwoofer will outperfom many much more expensive loudspeakers, their ribbon tweeter is exceptional smooth yet detailed, without the ribbon sizzle that affects many loudspeakers http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/product-detail.php?pid=32 Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
... Sorry - found your room dimensions. Reinforces my recommendation. Speakers with a 1'x1' footprint, 3' tall that visually disappear in the room, and throw a wide soundstage - with a high WAF. Reproduces acoustic piano and voices amazingly, and will rock you when you want. I'd suggest that Gershman Avante Garde RX20s fit the bill... |
Unfortunately, you will not find the Devores used for even twice your max budget. John is 3 months in waiting and the used market has soared. There is a used pair of Silverbacks for $7800. Even The Nines are in the $4k range and I have these. The 96’s are unbelievable speakers but you cannot find a pair with the newer drivers for less than $8500. They will fill any room and are on the extreme side of efficiency! As much as I love Devores they are not holographic in sound. I got used to electrostatics and still feel confined by the box. I am auditioning a pair of Emerald Physics with DSP. Maybe this will do it for me:) |
Have not heard the PS Audio Stellar Gain DAC. The Benchmark DAC 3 is very detailed without sounding digital - no harshness or digital glare at all I think you you can try it and return it if you dont like that level of detail/precision. That said, changing speakers will make a much bigger difference than changing DACs, IMHO. |
@2tuby I wouldn't get the Classe CT-SSP/SSP 800 av preamp surround processor if I were you. The CT-SSP does not have a USB input. It does have HDMI, spdif (coax digital audio), and optical digital (Toslink) inputs. Lacking USB input can be troublesome if you want to connect your computer to stream music files. Don't get me wrong the CT-SSP/SSP 800 sounded great for two channels but I would wait and get a stereo preamp/DAC or a DAC + stereo preamp. From time to time I spotted a Classe CP 800 stereo preamp/DAC here on Audiogon. This one has USB DAC input and will perform better than the CT-SSP/SSP 800. There are also countless other options out there as far as the DAC/preamp options. PS Audio Direct Stream DAC is awesome and has built-in volume control / preamp and recently there are quite a few of them offered for sale here on Agon. This will even be better than the Classe CP 800 stereo preamp/DAC. Benchmark also makes spectacular sounding DAC for the money and they have built-in volume control as well. |
@2tuby Yes there will be huge improvements sonically when using a $400 DAC/preamp vs a $6k preamp/DAC. Your upstream electronics play important role as they are the ones feeding the signals to your power amp and speakers. If you feed them with garbage the overall end results will be garbage too. Garbage in garbage out. Since you have a Classe CT-2300 power amp I recommend that you get the matching Classe CP 800 stereo preamp/DAC and the two will pair well together. Besides the CP 800 stereo preamp/DAC has been discontinued last year and nowaday it can be had for around $3500 to $4k used. This will be the cheapest solution for you. You can always get better ones but will probably cost more. Your Classe CT-2300, which is basically the same amp as the CA-2300, is a wonderful sounding amplifier. You can also get a good quality tube preamp plus a standalone DAC/streamer to potentially change the tonal character a little bit. Auduo Research, Primaluna, Cary Audio, Rogue Audio make great sounding analog tube preamps. I would look for a used one. The Rogue Audio P7 is highly regarded by many and I would strongly suggest that you look into that. But you will still need a standalone DAC with these tube analog preamps. Your Teac UD 301 DAC wouldn't cut it. After you upgrade your preamp/DAC or preamp + DAC you might not even need to upgrade your speakers after all. Or you can always move the Vandy line if you like their sound profile. They are great sounding speakers IMO. |
My original advice was to look for an upper level Devore used. But, if you were to purchase a separate preamp such as an Audio Note and use your Teac DAC for now, your opinion of the Vandersteens may change. A very good tube preamp combined with your amp would very likely transform the presentation of your system. Full disclosure, I'm also an Audio Note owner...Dac 2.1 Signature and M2 Special linestage. |
Is there a discernible difference between a $1K DAC/preamp and a $3-4K DAC/preamp? Yes. 3 to 4k you are in the quality used range. Audionote 3.1 is unbelievable it is a tube dac. It changed my audio direction all together. I went out and purchased a Audionote 3M line preamp (under 3k$) to match. All powered by a Bryston 3Bst. I changed from a NAD M51 dac with Bryston B1 preamp. I had many quality speakers including a fully active Linn System. Back to speakers. This AN system has made all my speakers soind good. I conected a set of restored KLH model 6, a sime late 60's 2 way, I could not beleive how much betwr they sounded. Next were my JBL 100's, all the dreded peakes were gone. It is adifferent listening experience. My point is, even the best speakers can only reproduce what you feed them. Start with your dac and pre. I think you may find your solution. Look into Audionote. Good luck. |
Low WAF means a ton of $$$$ went into crossovers and drovers, veneer while pretty consumes $$$$ however you cannot pick two more different speakers.... flavor changes are understandable..... consider a pair of Vandersteen 5 and run them with rear tweeter on when wandering turn tweeter off during critical listening... or Obelisk as others have said..... and your preamp is holding you back.... have fun !!!!! |
2tuby; I think that you would be well served to spend forty or fifty bucks to acquire back issues of the Absolute Sound and Sterephile, especially their issues with "editors' choices" and "best of" recommendations. It will get you some good reading and expose you to both a wide range of speakers and DACs that are in your price range. I like these forums, most people mean well, but they can get confusing. Reading over back issues of both of these Mags may give you a better idea of what to choose from. good luckps chk out the forum on Road trip to demo $10,000 speakers and you will see what I mean. |
Totem hawks. Amazing sound, hit lows and highs, first order crossover, long throw scanspeak revelator and mb tweeter are beautifully paired. Great soundstage, full sound. Detailed without crapping out when source is not ideal. Like power so your amp will kick it out of the park. Peachtree dacitx works great for me. Vinyl rips from my brother and apple music only. |
I have the Vandy 3A's. I've discovered that proper setup, room placement, is a huge factor in how they sound. I'm fortunate to have a dedicated listening room, so I can do whatever works within the constraints of the room itself. My only concern, given your listening preferences, is that they tend to really open up when driven a bit harder than it seems you listen. .............As for "Mamma", well, I'll grant you that they won't win a beauty contest, but you're paying for performance, not looks. As in women, beauty costs money:).............Best of luck!! |
