Magnepan LRS compared to the .7 or the 1.7i ?

I read they are factory direct only

This subject is being discussed in depth on the Planar Speaker Asylum.

What is the planar speaker asylum? Can you send a link?

Planar Speaker Asylum is over at Audio Asylum google it.

I pulled the trigger for LRS.

It will take 5-6 weeks before I get it.

I expect to run it with Lyngdorf 2170 (170w at 4 ohm) possibly with PSB subwoofer ( 2 12 inch driver and active 500w)

I had never used Magnepan but I had used Apogee Duetta Sig from 1989 to 1999.

     I've only read the very good reviews on all the recent new smaller Magnepan models but wanted to mention that any pair combined with a 4-sub distributed bass array system, like the Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra dba systems for $2500, would result in hi-end performance at a bargain total price.

     I believe even 1-2 good quality subs combined with a pair of these smaller Magnepans would offer very good full-range performance but I'm fairly certain a 4-sub AK or custom dba combined with a pair would provide excellent full-range performance.  
     I know 4-sub dbas combined with Magnepans work extremely well together because I use an AK Debra 4-sub dba with a pair of the older and larger 2.7QR Magnepans in my combo 2-ch music and ht system.   
    All Magnepans seem to have excellent mid-range, treble and imaging qualities but tend to lack deep bass detail, power, dynamics and impact.  The proven 4-sub dba system concept provides these missing bass qualities and does so seamlessly with virtually any pair of speakers, but especially well with fast planar-dynamic and electrostatic panel types.
     I'm seriously considering trying a pair of these smaller panels in my system since, although my larger 2.7QRs still sound great, they are now over 30 yrs old and I'm very curious if this would be an upgrade in my system performance.

Tim

I really don't seem to like the Audio Asylum format, maybe I just don't really understand it, like how to follow a thread without a million keystrokes.

Anyway, at least here on A'gon, because of how little time since their introduction, there are few, if any, user impressions.  But when you receive them please do give your impressions, I love the idea of having a pair.  Just please give them a chance to really show their true identity before giving impressions that may not be your "final answer".

jetter make sure to view Audio Asylum in classic mode (I find it easier anyway)

I own a pair of Magnepan 1.7i. I spoke to Wendell of Magnepan and demoed the LRS. My 1.7i are larger and give a larger soundstage. But the LRS are really excellent, as well, on an absolute basis and especially for the money. Personally, before I mounted my 1.7i speakers on MyeStands, I did use a subwoofer. But it was a pain. The setup of the sub to work just right with the Maggies is difficult. But then I mounted the 1.7i pair on MyeStands. The difference is not subtle. Bass is tighter and deeper. Overall definition and focus of the speakers across the range is better. I also got the Mike Powell silver jumper and cylinder (instead of fuse) upgrade. That resulted in further improvements in the highs and other aspects. Personally, I think that Magnepan should adopt the MyeStands and upgrades like Mike Powell’s or Cardas as either standard equipment or an option you can order. They make that much of a difference. Having done all of that, my subwoofers are gone. I am selling them. 

I think if you or anyone gets a pair of LRS, you should seriously consider ordering what ever stand Grant VanderMye from MyeStands constructs for them. Then get the fuse and jumper upgrade. After that determine if you need a subwoofer. I don’t think you will. But if you want one a dipole sub, sealed sub (no ports) would be best. REL or Rhythmik. But personally, I don’t need them now. YMMV. 

Lots of good info, but all tangent to the original question

LRS vs .7 vs 1.7i

anyone?

Here's the link to Planar Speaker Asylum Forum and the Magnepan section:https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/bbs.html
RE: the LRS, I ordered a pair in mid-April and I've had no news on when they will be shipped. Unfortunately, I don't have any personal basis for comparing the 0.7 and 1.7i to the LRS, but the MUG forum is worth consulting.

Hello kingbarbuda,

     In my experience, it's very difficult to integrate a single sub, no matter the quality or price, seamlessly and well with Magnepans.  You'll get more bass but it won't be the same fast, smooth, tight and articulate bass that Magnepans naturally produce although with significantly limited authority, extension and impact, with the exceptions of the top models. 
     The bass from single subs with a large driver typically sounds slow, lagging and disconnected from the fast, smooth and detailed response of planar-magnetic panel speakers producing the remaining frequency range because a single large point source bass driver lacks the speed and agility of a planar -magnetic panel transducer. A single sealed sub with a smaller driver or a dipole sub are better matches but lack the bass authority, extension and impact.

     2 sealed subs with smaller drivers or 2 dipole subs are a better match for Magnepans.  Based on personal experience, however, the Audio Kinesis Swarm and Debra distributed bass array systems using four relatively small subs, each 1ft W x1ft D x2ft H and 44 lbs, with 10" drivers are definitely the best bass system solutions I'm aware of for use with planar-dynamic and electrostatic panel type speakers.  
     The key features of a dba system's effectiveness being the presence of 4 separate subs and their rather random positioning within the room.  This means that an effective custom dba system can be created using virtually any 4 subs an individual prefers, for example 4 larger ported or sealed subs with larger 12-15" drivers if even more bass authority is desired.
 The bass produced by a 4-sub dba system has the speed, smoothness,agility and detail required to blend seamlessly with the fast, smooth, agile and detailed sound performance characteristics of planar-magnetic and electrostatic panel speakers while also producing the bass authority, extension and impact smaller Magnepans lack. 

Tim 

Elizabeth- good insight on the backlash.  And I hope my quest is not futile. 

Here is a review comparing to the .7 at about 5.5 minutes into the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdqchci3AhU

The .7 has more bass, greater dynamics, and a larger sweet spot. It’s the same speaker, you just get more of it. 

"Elizabeth- good insight on the backlash. And I hope my quest is not futile"

Sounds a bit like Debbie Downer to me.

With Magnepan's 60 day return policy at least you can try them at home to see if they work for you without too much hassle.

Sure it may take a bit more to make them sing (amp / placement /
etc) but isn't that part of the fun of this hobby.

Magnepan asks what amp are you planning to use when buying them to help folks understand what they are getting into.

Straight from the Mr. Diller 

http://youtu.be/K4EuwNqtA48

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdqchci3AhU

Above video appears to give answer to OP’s question.

I had used Apogee Duetta Signature driven by Krell KSA 150 from 1989 to 1999.

But I had never used Magnepan in my listening room although I heard them in the stores.

My impression was Magnepan had softer bass than Apogee.

Currently I am driving Lansche 4.1 speaker with plasma tweeter (99db/w spec, real efficiency around 95db/w) by either Line Magnetic 508 48Watt SET or Silbatone 8W SET.

I do not expect LRS to bump out Lansche 4.1.

But I can have fun in using dipole speaker again.

Since I have Lyngdorf 2170 which has an active crossover, I have lot of flexibility.

I will play LRS from 55 hz using Lyngdorf 2170(170watt at 4 ohm) and use PSB subsonic 10 subwoofer down from 55hz.


If LRS give some fun, then I will be happy to keep it as second speaker.

I believe LRS will give lot of people a chance to try out dipole planar speaker for the first time in their life.

I will give my opinion after listening to it for at least one week.

It will be around the end of June.

Thomas

Here’s a review of the LRS from Steve Guttenberg/Audiophiliac from youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdqchci3AhU

     He does talk about the differences between the LRS/.7/1.7 models, mainly stating the LRS is Magnepan’s ’appetizer speaker’ and , at $650/pr, an excellent and affordable way to experiencing the open, articulate, transparent and palpable sound with excellent but limited bass response. He mentions  how moving up the Magnepan model line just gets you more of this sound, beginning with the .7 and 1.7 which he describes as being taller, wider, more expensive versions of the LRS that sound warmer and have a bit more bass.
     He also discusses the difficulty of integrating subs with Magnepans, stating he really gave up trying to integrate subs with them when he last tried when he owned a pair of 3.6s. I understand his frustration after experimenting for a few years, at first with a single sub and later with dual subs, trying to integrate the bass seamlessly with my older 2.7QR 3-way Magnepans.
     Changing from a stereo class AB Aragon 4004 MKII amp (400 watts/ch at 4 ohms) to a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M class D mono-blocks (1,200 watts/ch at 4 ohms) significantly improved the bass quality, power and dynamics of the 2.7QR’s rather large 623 square inch quasi-ribbon bass sections but the bass extension is limited to about 36 Hz.
      I completely understand why Magnepan owners love the performance of their speakers, regardless of model, and are willing to sacrifice powerful, extended and dynamic bass response rather than do without the excellent performance of them from the mid-bass on up as well as the exceptional sound stage imaging.
     But I’ve also discovered that experiencing even just most of the bottom octave (16-32 Hz) on music and ht is immensely enjoyable mainly because I perceive both as more realistic. I’m not a Bass-Head but I admit I enjoy the bass weight and power that viscerally involves your whole body in the music or ht.
     My main intention of posting on this thread is to spread the word that there is a proven method, based on scientific research and psycho-acoustic principles, to seamlessly integrate powerful, extended, dynamic and articulate bass response with the excellent frequency response of fast Magnepan planar-magnetic and electrostatic panel speakers.
     I’m a bit amazed that there’s not more awareness of how well 4-sub distributed bass array systems perform, especially on high quality audio sites like Audiogon and Audio Asylum. I find this lack of awareness of dbas to be unfortunate and perplexing. Here’s a link to an Absolute Sound review of the Audio Kinesis Swarm dba system that I think describes its performance and benefits very accurately:

www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/

     I don’t want to be a distraction to the main subject of this thread out of politeness but also because I’m very interested in the comparisons and performance reviews of these 3 least expensive Magnepan models.
     I’m very intrigued by the the overall system sound performance prospects of combining the excellent performance of the Magnepan true ribbon tweeters for treble and the quasi-ribbons for the mid-bass and mid-range with the only qualities I suspect are lacking in all of these models preventing state of the art performance; excellent powerful, dynamic, articulate, extended and seamlessly integrated deep bass performance that I’m certain a dba system would provide.
     While it could be true that my words describing how exceptionally well the dba concept actually works may have convinced no one, I truly believe even a brief dba audition would likely convince virtually everyone.

Enjoy,
Tim

At $650 per pair, it’s only a matter of time before one stacks a pair of them for $1300. Has anyone done this?

Agree with the remarks upthread that MyeStands or Sound Anchor stands make a tremendous difference esp with the smaller Maggies. Magnepan tries to keep their costs down else they'd include stands like those as standard.

I believe Guttenberg has said in other reviews, that in general he does not like subwoofers...

I have to laugh. Here we are thinking about ordering the LRS and what do we really know about them? Pretty much nothing but a couple of write ups by the usual reviewers. Their summary; they sound like mini magnepans. Wasn’t it just a week or two ago that the same reviewers were gushing incredible over a Klipsch bookshelf speaker as the most incredible buy at their price, and before that was the buchardt 300 and then the 400 speakers?

I came very close to ordering the buchardts, the Klipsch and had to stop myself from ordering the LRS today. Maybe, if not probably, tomorrow.

 @noble100 The subwoofer issue you and I have discussed as I tried to state above, is now moot for me. I will clarify this again more directly to again make my point: Based on my own experience which has also been confirmed by other Maggie owners I know, if you are running Magnepans and have not ordered and mounted them on MyeStands, you are cheating yourself and you are not hearing the full potential of these great speakers. I was messing around with a Snell PS.10 sub and a Paradigm 10 inch sub prior  and ran into the feeling of disconnected sound. Subs are hard to synchronize and really match up with Maggies. Anyway, after I mounted my 1.7i pair on MyeStands, the bass got tighter. Everything got more detailed. Just overall a very noticeable difference. I took the subs off my system and I am now selling them. They just aren’t needed. There is plenty of good bass now. For the coup de gras, Get the Mike Powell Audio instant Maggie upgrade. I got the silver one. It replaces the plated steel jumper with a solid silver one. It replaces the stock fuse with a hollow silver tube. Just be careful with you speakers now that you have no fuse. Again another significant SQ improvement. This setup should be the baseline for all Maggies and how Maggies are compared amongst themselves and against other speakers. They just aren’t fully setup without the above improvements IMO. 

To answer the question: I am not familiar with the .7i. But in comparing with LRS with my 1.7i. It’s a matter of how much money can you spend and a matter of great and greater. I heard the LRS myself at the secret Maggie room at Axpona with Wendell inside and his wife guarding the door. Everything you hear from Steve Guttenberg IMO is dead on. I agree with his assessment. I think for $650 they are the biggest speaker bargain around. Period. Order them. You have nothing to lose. I personally would make two other calls or purchases after ordering them: per above, get what ever stand MyeStands has devised for the LRS and get the Mike Powell upgrade. If you have about $2000-$2250 and the room, get the 1.7i. I think you will be happy. One thing I would watch for the LRS is the use of the Schiit Vidar per the Guttenberg review. Now it may be different for the LRS than the 1.7i, but I had a pair of Vidars running as monoblocks and granted, I was playing Jeff Beck fusion music loud and one of the Vidars went into thermal protection. Maybe one or two Vidars is enough for the LRS. I don’t know. But Maggies like power. I since upgraded my 1.7i system from the pair of Vidars to a pair of Bryston 4B3s (which were great and no issues) and then because of an opportunity to a pair of Bryston 28B3s. 
So for the money the LRS is great. If you do please save some money for stands and maybe the upgraded jumper and fuse (about $79). 

Don't bother with the fuse and jumper.  Just do a simple rewiring to bypass them both (no soldering required and easily reversible).  I did this to my MMGs and it was worthwhile.

I don’t think bridged amps and Maggie’s are a good  combo in general. A single Vidar might work much better 

+1 ^

Hello kingbarbuda,

     I completely agree with you that subs are hard to synchronize and really match up with Maggies.  It seems like we've both been disappointed in the past trying to integrate them seamlessly.  
     You threw in the towel with your 1.7is, professional audio reviewer Steve Guttenberg has given up trying with his 3.6Rs and it's likely at least many hundreds of other users of all the various Magnepan models also have become frustrated trying to integrate subs and given up.  
     Heck, I was on the verge of throwing in the towel trying to use subs with my 2.7QRs when I, thankfully, decided to give it another try by buying the $2,800 Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub distributed bass array system on a free 28-day in-home trial basis.  I remained skeptical right up to the point of hearing it for the 1st time in my room and system.

     This is an honest to goodness true story of that 1st audition about 4 yrs ago: My buddy and I had just spent about 3 hrs optimally positioning all 4 subs and wiring them up.  We were both a bit tired and resting when I remembered there was a Blu-ray of the WWII movie Fury still in the player.  So I hit play on the remote to see how it sounded on my now 5.4 surround ht system (the 2.7QRs, a CC3 center, 2 in-ceiling Infinity rear surrounds and the new 4 dba subs).  I was still skeptical after a couple of movie preview ads had played but they had little to no bass content.
      Then a preview of the movie Whiplash came on that contained a prolonged and dynamic full-kit drum solo . This was very well recorded and was being played back as 24 bit/96 Khz hi-res PCM format through my Oppo 105 at a med/high volume level.  The entire drum kit seemed like it was actually physically in the room, centered along the font wall of my 23' x 16' x 8' room.   The drum solo was so exceptionally realistic, with bass that was felt as well as heard, as it built in momentum to the point of both of us being totally convinced there was a drum kit being played vigorously at the front of the room, without even the faintest hint it may be a recording. When the drum solo ended with a flourish and abrupt stop, it left my friend and I just staring at each other wide eyed in amazement. 
      No doubt, some readers will believe I'm exaggerating but I'm not very concerned since I really don't think I can overstate how well this dba concept actually performs in my system on music and ht.  In fact, the only valid criticism I or anyone could make is that my AK Debra dba only has flat bass response down to 20 Hz at 113 db, which means it can't completely reproduce the lowest octave of 16-32 Hz.  But there's always the option to build a custom 4-sub dba system with all or a few of the subs being larger and capable of flat bass response down to 16 Hz or even lower.  I'm unaware of any recorded content containing bass this deep, however, so I'm currently satisfied with flat bass extension down to 20 Hz. and only hearing/feeling most of the bottom octave.
       I also understand your satisfaction with the bass performance of your 1.7is after mounting them on Mye stands, adding the jumper and fuse, changing to Bryston amps and selling your subs.  Your 1.7is 3-way Magnepans only have bass extension down to 40 Hz +/- 3 db from  a quasi-ribbon bass area of 442 square inches compared to my  older 2.7QRs 3-way Magnepans that only have bass extension down to 34 Hz +/- 3 db  from a quasi-ribbon bass area of 620 square inches.  This indicates to me that we both likely experience very similar high quality bass response levels from our speakers.  If so, I clearly understand how you'd be satisfied with the bass performance of your speakers without the aid of subs since I was almost satisfied myself.   
      But the truth is that most would probably consider our speakers by themselves as a bit attenuated in the deep bass, especially by those having large point source cone type woofer drivers in their large floor standing speakers and those using 1 or more subs. 
      I believe that almost anyone, including you and I, would consider the bass quality of our Magnepan speakers as being exceptionally high but somewhat limited in bass extension, dynamics and impact.  My main point is that I'm certain that almost anyone, including you and I, would consider the bass quality of our Magnepans with a dba system as being very close to state of the art with good deep bass extension, high levels of detail, seamless integration, powerful dynamics and impact along with a seemingly effortless quality that is perceived as amazingly life-like and natural.
        I'll conclude this book by noting that we're unlikely to realize there's missing bass content if our system can't even reproduce it, sometimes we just don't know what we don't know and you can audition an AK Swarm or Debra dba system free in your home for about a month.  It'll take you less than a day to set it up and know I speak the truth, which leaves about 29 days to return it if you're unsatisfied.  I know I'll never be buying another sub in my lifetime. 

Tim 

OP here.

i just ordered a set direct from magnepan, delivery 3-5 weeks.  At that price, I figure I can’t go wrong.  If I love them (or like them a lot) I will then invest in the mye stands, and perhaps the mike Powell upgrade.  If I really love them, I may send them back during the trial and buy the .7.   Worse case, I return them.  Even if I keep and change my mind, I suspect I would only lose a couple hundred bucks on a resale.   

So, for now, I am signing off of this thread.  Thanks for all the comments.

bill

I'll conclude this book

Whoa. Need cliff's notes!

Kingbarbuda,
Regarding Mye stands, although there does seem to be a great deal of positive feedback on these, I recall either Jim Winey or Wendell saying some years ago in response to such criticism that Magnepan had tried a large number of variations and still decided to go with the “stock stands”....

https://youtu.be/DxZvzWEf-m8

new video about the magnepan LRS. He goes into detail about the sound and his experience. Made me order one !

Hello jamesmagnot,

This guy’s review made you decide to buy a pair of LRS?
https://youtu.be/DxZvzWEf-m8

I’ve not yet heard the LRS in person but have been reading all the reviews I can find to learn more about them. This guy’s review was the most unusual one I’ve read or viewed thus far.
It could be my fault to a degree, but I didn’t gain as much knowledge from this review as most I’ve read and seen. However, I’m not going to take all the blame for this guy’s failure to paint a coherent picture of the LRS’s sound quality. Sure, he describes these speakers as a great bargain, sounding great, not harsh or bright at all and able to create a 3 dimensional soundstage image with great "death", I think he meant depth. Okay, I already use Magnepans and that all makes sense to me.
But then he delves into describing the bass as "sandy"? Sandy? Did he just say the bass was sandy? Abrasive? Scratchy? Sandy, wtf? Come’on man, sandy? I think he means ’dry’ but that’s an extremely poor adjective for describing the bass response of a speaker, too.
I want to make it clear to you that I definitely don’t think you made a mistake by ordering a pair of the LRS. I’m just surprised this guy’s review convinced you to do it.
I also wanted to make sure you don’t have unreasonably high expectations of their bass response. As I stated, I own an older pair of Magnepan 2.7QR speakers but have never heard the LRS. The 2.7 are fairly large (6’ x 2’) 3-ways with a large (625 sq.in.) dipole planar-magnetic bass section and have a rated bass extension down to 35 Hz. By comparison, the LRS are fairly small (4’ x 14.5") 2-ways with a combined midrange and bass dipole planar-magnetic section and have a rated bass extension down to 50 Hz.
I would describe my 2.7s as bass shy or bass limited even though the bass they do produce is of a very high quality. I can understand if some would consider their bass sufficiently good not to need sub augmentation.
Based solely on their rated bass extension of only 50 Hz, however, I seriously doubt I would understand if some would consider the LRS bass as sufficiently good not to need sub augmentation. I think I would need to be English, or have no knowledge of the importance of the added impact and realism that high quality bass response has on musical and HT audio reproduction, to consider not utilizing a well implemented sub system with the LRS. I’m suspecting the LRS may best be described by some as ’bass starved.
What are the options for attaining better bass response when using the LRS? Here are my suggestions in order of effectiveness:

1. Buy an Audio Kinesis Swarm 4-sub distributed bass array (DBA) system for $3,200. Here’s an Absolute Sound review:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/

Or, buy the almost identical Audio Kinesis DEBRA 4-sub DBA system for $2,990:

www.jamesromeyn.com/old-pages/home-audio-gear/dsa-1-0-distributed-subwoofer-array-5-pieces-4k-usd/

     I use the AK DEBRA system with my Magnepans and the bass is near state of the art in my room for both 2-ch music and HT. Of course, the downside is that both of these DBAs cost about 5 times the price of a pair of the LRS. But this is the ideal solution and the sound quality performance level of the combination will rival the top Magnepan models and many other speakers costing significantly more.


2. Buy a pair of very good quality subs of your choice and use the ’crawl method’ (google it) to optimally position them for about $1,000/pr. or more.

     This will provide excellent bass response quality and seamless integration with the LRS, just like either of the 4-sub DBAs, but the sota bass quality performance will be limited to a single specified listening sweet spot position rather than throughout your entire room that the DBA solution provides. I’m recommending a pair of subs rather than a single sub, no matter the quality or cost of that single sub, because a pair will perform about twice as well as a single sub in virtually any given room. A pair of subs will provide much better bass integration with the LRS and provide superior bass impact and dynamics than a single sub.
     The truth will remain that a 4-sub DBA systems will perform about twice as well as a pair of subs but you’ll have the option to upgrade to a 4-sub DBA system in the future by just adding an additional pair of subs.


3. Learn to accept the poor bass response of the LRS and the reduced natural and realistic musical bass qualities that entails.



Tim

Received my LRS on Thursday. After 48 hours of break-in, hooked up the Magnepan DWM woofer, and sounds great...as these are in a second system, I was not really bothered by a lack of bass, but the DWM is a great addition...

not that I have a dog in this fight but there is a pair of lightly used desktop maggie AND the DWM at Alma Audio in SD, they are a seller here and no I have no financial interest...

LRS sound like bigtime fun for low dollars, IF ya got the amp to run them...

Yesterday installed the Mike Powell silver jumper and fuse kit and very happy with improvements 

jl35,

     Excellent, what amp are you using?

Tim

Gato 150  Integrated .  AB design, 150w into 8 ohms, 250 into 4 . Great amp

jl35,

     Cool, I've heard good things about the Gato 150, good combo.

Enjoy,
  Tim

Tim, Gato is now selling manufacturer direct, so prices are almost cut in half. The lower priced 250 and 400 are more powerful and  Class D, and include a DAC, so probably quite different than the 150...

Hey jl35,

     Thanks for the info, I've got a couple friends who may be very interested in knowing that.

Tim

I went earlier this month to listen to the LRS and compared them to the .7's.  They were both impressive and I could have been satisfied with the LRS but with both being driven by an amp that could offer more than either needed, the .7's sounded enough better to justify the step up.I'm getting by on a modest SS payout so I don't spend too freely (except for liquor and music).I'm driving mine with an original Bryston 3B and it's got everything the LRS or .7's need.  Tonight I was feeling ambitious and made a replacement jumper with multiple strand silver magnet wire.  Haven't had the chance to listen to it yet but it cut the resistance by a factor of 10.

Doesn't the size of the room have some relevance worth mentioning when comparing the two?

Yes. Magnepan advised me the LRS would sound better in my small room. It’s about 11x12

It would be helpful if anyone could offer a bit more details regarding the differences between LRS and .7. I’m on the fence myself but will probably just pick up the .7 today at my local dealer to avoid any further suspense.

Just saw the planar asylum. What a mess. I can’t help but wonder what’s going on in ones mind making a site such a clusterf...... disaster. 

Hello rankaudio,

       I don't totally disagree with you about the planar asylum being a cluster but I can cut to the chase for you:
       No matter which Magnepans one decides to purchase, they're going to sound better with a single good quality sub, about twice as good with dual good quality subs and near state of the art with a good quality 4-sub distributed bass array (DBA) system.  I make this claim solely based on accumulated knowledge and pertinent personal experience.

Best wishes,
     Tim