Most Musical 6NS7 tube for a Preamp?

I have an XA 25 running with a deHavilland UltraVerve. My volume levels are similar to what you describe.   It is a perfect match for my tastes which are towards tube warmth.  You can roll the 6SN7 to fine tune the sound.  I just this past week rolled from a Sylvania chrome top short glass green label to an NOS black glass oval plate TungSol.  Nice extra is you do not have to worry about matched pairs.  Bass has a bit more punch. Happy before the change and happier now.  Of course, there are so many variables.  In my setup, compared to two prior preamps (an Audio Note M2 and a Vinnie Rossi LIO), the deHavilland is a great match. Both of the other two preamps are very fine products.  It is a matter of how all the variables came together for me.  

Yeah, it’s all about synergy mca_nyc.
I tried the LTA MZ2 which everybody was raving about about 2 years ago and in my setup it sounded broken, flat, boring, 2 dimensional, and lifeless compared to my preamp. I tried all my best tubes but still wasn’t good
I’m not saying it’s a bad preamp just that it didn’t have synergy with my components. IMHO

Yeah @atmasphere, for pre-amp applications, Roger had a hard-on for the 6DJ8 (used in his RM-5 and the Audible Illusions Modulus 2 & 3). He was a man of "firm" opinions. ;-)

@bdp24 We used the 6DJ8 in some our early stuff, since the tube is very linear (which is probably why Roger liked it) and you could get good bandwidth as it supported high currents.

But finding one that wasn't microphonic was really challenging! I often found examples you could yell at and hear yourself in the speaker- and that was in an amplifier!


The 6DJ8 was not intended for audio- it was more for instrumentation (look in a Tektronix 'scope sometime- the tube ones are full of them) and television work. OTOH the 6SN7 *was* designed for audio, and like many products there were hiccups along the way but they did get the design right.  When we started using it the only source of current production was Russia and they were dreadful. But then the Chinese got in the game and their 6SN7s were pretty good! Since then there has been no turning back and we use the 6SN7 in  all of our products.

When we came out with the UV-1, instead of using the 12AU7 (which is based on the 6SN7) as we were doing in our modifications of the Dynaco PAS-3, since we had the room and the current in the power transformer, we opted for the 6SN7 as the centerpiece of that preamp.


What's nice about the 6SN7 is that if a line stage design is at all competent, it will easily keep up with line stages costing a lot more. It does not have to be a complex circuit- in our UV-1 there's only one tube per channel and 4 resistors!


Audio Research makes respected preamps, but I would expect many of the 6SN7-based preamps on this thread to keep up with any of them. This is not an attack on ARC, its simply a statement of how well 6SN7s work in line stages!

Thank you to all for the valuable, informed counsel.

patrick- good confirmation on the newer, Chinese version.

mca-ny- which speakers do you run?

Atma- My reentry to hifi in 2017 has been guided by a now friend
and longtime audiophile. Your comments help to explain why he
put me on the 6NS7 for line stage use.

Great help All!!

I have the UltraVerve and Pass XA25 feeding Focal 1027BE speakers.

Hello Chorus, I remember responding once before to you on another subject. Anyway, I’ve listened to a lot of 6SN7 tubes in my life. I haven’t heard all of the very good ones but I’ve heard enough. Whenever I look for sounding that has a musical sound, I'm not desiring to give up transparency; I’m also looking that it is transparent too. So musicality to me means something not very detailed and clean sounding but full and textured with great clarity.  Some of the tubes mentioned here are very good, like the TungSol’s but they might be very expensive. But other tubes, like the Sylvania “W” are very clean sounding and even though they are fantastic, you might not find them to be what you’re looking for. One tube that comes to mind that I feel is the perfect one you’re looking for is the genuine Sylvania Crome Dome made in 1957 and 58.  There is a big misunderstanding online of what the genuine Chrome Dome looks like. I can forward you info on this so that you can get correct information. 

Actually the Sylvania were made in the early 50’s, around 51 or 52. I mistook the year with another item. 

Low,

I appreciate your remembering an earlier inquiry. I have found this
forum very helpful in the past for either confirming my direction or
exposing options I knew nothing of.

I do not possess the vocabulary or years of experience to be
able to so eloquently express what rolls off your tongue.

When I say I am in pursuit of musicality I mean I want to
feel the music move me. I really can't describe it any differently.
I do not have that skill set.

Thank you.

Hello Chorus, ok so I got a better understanding of what your looking for.  I personally find, the more revealing a system is, the more I am affected by its performance even at low listen level. I think you will do well with the 1945 Sylvania 6SN7W short bottle.  Very revealing, very immediate, and musical.  I know of a lot of great 6SN7 tubes but I do not want this to be a confusing process. 

Try contacting "Andy" at Vintage Tube Service. The link is http://vintagetubeservices.com/mini-tubes-2/ 
I have a modwright modded Oppo 105D and I struggled for a while finding the right tubes. Andy was -and I believe- still would be very patient and very helpful in steering me in the right direction. He also ships as he promises he will and, probably, will allow you to return tubes that are not to your liking. Good luck, I feel, or did feel, your pain in this endeavor. 

Try contacting Andy Bowman at Vintage Tube Services. He sounds as though he has been around for a while and he is both patient and very helpful. I have a Modwright modded Oppo 105D and I struggled to find the right tubes. Andy was very helpful in steering me through the congested 6sn7 tube market. The link to his sight is http://vintagetubeservices.com/mini-tubes-2/ 
 Andy ships when he say he will and I believe he may allow you to return tubes not to your liking. Good luck, I feel, or did feel, your pain in pursuing this endeavor. Good luck.

Chorus I am in same boat looking to upgrade my cjet3se.  My dream pre is the Vinnie Rossi L2. I own a Pass Xa25 too. It needs a little helping of sugar to balance the sound. This amp as the continueness of tubes with speed and detail most tubes can't match. I am looking at Prima Luna Evo 300 Cary slp 98l. Only problem with these is they come with off the shelf volume Alps pot. Even Jadis uses Alps.😒 It's ok but not SOTA. Let me know what you end up with.

LTA MZ2 is not a good match for the Pass. I'm selling mine. The combo has great bass but too clean. No air or lush mids.

Preamp finalists:

1. Cary SLP 5 -used $3-$3.5k
2. Supratek Chardonnay -New $2k
3. deHavilland Ultraverve- used $2k but upgrades required
4. Dodd Battery -used $1.2k -Something says forget this craziness

My finalist

Prima Luna Evo 300
Don Sachs pre
Valvet L2

BTW best 6SN7 Shuguang WE6SN7 then CV-181 Black glass.

Sheesh- we don't get in the mix?
I can vouch for Andy Bouwman of Vintage Tube Services. We have many consistently positive comments from our customers going back 25 years.  

atma- Sorry. How much is the MP 1's retail? (That is the 2 chasis, 6NS7
model correct)?

I know this thread was more about the 6SN7 but another consideration is the preamp gain.  I also listen mostly in the 60-75 dB range. The ability to fine tune the volume has been a challenge for me over the years.  Something to consider.  I am happy with this aspect with the Ultraverve Pass XA25 combo. 

I emailed Kara she is on a Sabatical so hard to try her Ultraverve.

atma- Sorry. How much is the MP 1's retail? (That is the 2 chasis, 6NS7
model correct)?

@chorusYes, but the MP-1 is balanced. We make three preamps- in your case the UV-1 is probably the preamp to look at since your Pass Labs amp only accepts single-ended inputs. 

if you want to save yourself a few bucks and feel confident enough to rewire your filament voltages, 8SN7 and 12SN7 variants of the same NOS tubes can be found at cheaper prices.

An acquaintance recently found some Sylvania 8SN7 chrometops at a fraction of the going for the regular variant.

I’ve tried lots of the 6922 and 12xx7 variant pre-amps.I totally agree In the assessment the the 6SN7 is the best tube for application.

I still have many Pre’s with this tube, Wyetech Opal my current fav, Supratek Chenin, ASL Flora. The other I’ve only listened to in other systems and really admired is the MFA luminescence. A used one is very spendy tho.

By all accounts with my readings over the past the Ultraverve Is a very worthy consideration, and I you wanted to stretch a little, the Atma is a great choice too. One of these days I’ll try them both in my rig.

Like others, my favourite tube is the Tung Sol vt231. Crazy expensive, and they are so good I’m compelled to use them. I agree Andy Bowman should on your short list should you want to spend that much. Please note, they are rarely in stock, as many can be microphonic. it’s hard to get a guaranteed great one, be careful when buying elsewhere for that reason. I’m tempted at the New Dawning version mentioned previously in this thread. If they are as good as the Tung Sols, I’m in.

I have about 15 pairs american NOS 6sn7 .  Alot of them were microphonic and the tubes that weren't microphonic still gave me tinnitis, - listener fatigue, headache

I tried Electroharminix new tubes and all is good now.  Same extension
I'm using an Aikido Octal preamp

hitachi 6sn7gtb is very good!

So,  to the OP, what preamp did you end up getting?

Maybe I should run my WE6SN7s for a while to see if the bottom end comes around. So far the Pavane CV181s bests those for good bass, mid bass. 

I ended up recently selling my XA 25 and replacing it with the INT25
which is en route to me as I write. 
After much consideration I felt the same maker match was the 
most prudent way to go.
Of course I lost an avenue to tube sound.
I do also want a DAC upgrade from my Oppo 205
so I hope to land an R2R Day with a tube or two inside.

Thanks to everyone who provided their experiences.

There are a lot of good R2R DACs out there these days. I'm really enjoying my MHDT Orchid. There's a lot that's been written about the R2R NOS DACs in the last couple years and good options out there that don't cost a ton. 

I have a deHavilland UltraVerve 3 remote version since 2013. I have been through few preamps, the UV3 will stay. I bought mine new direct from Kara, I asked her to installed Mundrof silver gold in oil 2.2uf caps in mine, sounds excellent but if I do it all over again, I will pick Jupiter copper caps instead, the SGO is a little highlight in HF but none of the less the caps sound technically wonderful! This preamp has kickass bass line for a tube pre, if you want less bass just ask her to install 1.5uf coupling caps instead 2.2uf, peace!

 

Best

Griffin

BTW, the lowest for acceptable bass line is 1.0uf caps in place, anything less may sound imbalanced.

Surprised one of the most coveted 6SN7 tubes isn’t mentioned in this thread. I’ve seen Melz rated above all the bad boys, RCA and Ken-Rad. Iirc there’s a small window of time in the 50’s that are the best.

I’m using the Don Sachs D2 linestage, with all wood case, and it is working well with my VTL ST150, Pioneer M22, and PS Audio S300 amps. Also worked well with a friend’s Pass Volksamp. I'm using the Linlai E 6SN7 in it at the moment. Think I actually prefer them to the RCA grey and Ken-Rad black VT-231. But I could live with any of them.

Thanks,

Doug A

The best sounding 6SN7 I have tried in my Supratek Syrah preamp is the cheap Russian  military black base OTK.They are a bit microphonic however.They do sound very dynamic and vibrant though.The worst I have tried is the Shugyang Treasure CV181-Z which sounds quite muffled and dull.The USA Sylvania 6SN7GT black base is decent but a bit lifeless.What would be nice is something with the dynamics and vibrancy of the Russian military and the quietness of the others.Any suggestions.

By the way the Supratek is a fantastic sounding preamp.I own a Supratek Cabernet 300B as well.

@aldnorab Don Sachs D2 linestage takes 4 6SN7s that might be a little expensive to run if you want the best tubes. I have tried Ken-Rad VT231, they are well, not the smoothest in the HF but good tubes none of the less.

@jtgofish If you are looking for dynamic and vibrant in 6SN7 tubes you should look elsewhere, use 6CG7 with adapters in place of 6SN7s

The best 6SN7s I have heard were the Tung Sol round plates. These were used as drivers in a slightly brighter sounding power amplifier. Perhaps one of the best buys are the Hitachi made, often rebranded, 6SN7GTB tubes. 

@ptrck887

The Shuguang Dawning Series WE6SN7 PLUS. Bought a pair on line from a Hong Kong dealer.

Can you share this dealer's link, contact information? Thanks

Hi tyray,

I bought them at China Hifi audio, but since then there has been a big shake up at Shuguang.....some sort of family split?  Not sure.  They no longer offer the Dawning Series WE6SN7 PLUS.  I have since moved to a Don Sachs II pre and although Don liked the Plus series in his pre, I did not.  They were ok but not great.  I have been back to running NOS.  Sylvania Bad Boys in the output stage and Marconi's in the buffer.  Don supplied Pasvane Globes and they are quite good.  

Have fun!

Wow! Thank you for your quick response! I almost pulled the trigger on the 'non  Dawning' Series WE6SN7 PLUS tubes on Amazon.

 

On the 6NS7 tubes, I bought the Don Sach’s Valhalla amp with upgraded Linlai 6NS7 tubes and they sound great. I was able to compare them to the "stock" tubes sent with that amp and they were much better, in my opinion. I haven’t tried the E series of those tubes but I will when these tubes no longer function. There is at least one thread on these tubes. They are larger tubes so you might have to use socket extender(s) to fit them in.

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/linlai-e-6sn7-tubes

I just pulled the trigger on (2) matched ’poor mans’ Marconi 6SN7’s, the Canada Marconi 6SN7 5692 6SN7GTB Copper Rods 3 Holes code date 1952. Right now I have matched 1940’s (1) Sylvania 6SN7W metal base and (1) Sylvania 6SN7GT metal base in my LTA Microzotl MZ3. I’m also in the works with Andy of Vintage Tube Services to purchase (2) Matched Sylvania 6SN7GT 1952 ’Bad Boys’.

@ptrck887 thank you, thank you, thank you, for taking the time and effort to patiently walk me through the educational process to get the right tube. After comparing the picture of the Canada (Marconi) GE 6SN7 5692 6SN7GTB Copper Rods 3 Holes tube with the Canada Marconi 6SN7 5692 6SN7GTB Copper Rods 3 Holes code date 1952, they were identical. The Canada Marconi’s 6SN7 5692 6SN7GTB tubes are taller than other 6SN7’s and that’s when I knew I had the right tube. It was just the luck of the draw that the Canada Marconi 6SN7 5692 6SN7GTB tube is dated 1952. And another good thing is the (2) Canada Marconi’s only cost me $170 US including tax and shipping with a 30 day return policy.

The Canada Marconi’s were bought out of country so it’s going to take a while for me to get them and burn/run them in, but I will keep everyone posted.

Here is a link to Canada Marconi 6SN7 5692 6SN7GTB for tube(s) reference: The Reference 6SN7 Thread - Canada Marconi - page 641

 

Thanks tyray,

Once you have them and get them burned in let me know how they sound in your MZ3!

Enjoy

A friend lent me a box of 6SN7s to try in my Supratek.

Most of the preferred older ones were there including the Ken Rad VT231,Brimar CV1988,RCA Grey etc .My pick was the Toshiba 6SN7 GB.The most neutral,open ,clean and detailed.Second was probably the Ken Rad VT231.What is best though probably comes down to your system.If you want a big meaty sound then the RCA Grey are like that.Some people say voluptuous.Not neutral though.

I myself did a period of tube rolling with both Vintage and New Valves as well as Russian Equivalent types.

My assessment as a result of demonstration and comparison, has shown, it is quite possible to create a few different end sonics, but if maintaining the perception that the Details, Dynamics and Envelope is being kept to a attractive level. Not all Valves selected that can change the end sound to one that can be lived with are capable of maintaining the above three attractive traits. There are compromises to be made.

The Coherence across the frequencies is a similar decision to be made. Tight Rolled off Bass Notes with a push to project the upper mid's upper high's / Loose Bass which is heading from very precent to overwhelming with the impact of subdued Upper Frequency through to the perception these frequencies are quashed.

Somewhere in this perception of Sounds Produced and their Structure there is a Valve that one individual will love or loath.

I chose the Ken Rad Black VT231 as the Valve to offer a honest Roll of in the Bass and allow the Mid's and Upper frequencies to be balanced in the frequency range. Added to this, the Details, Dynamics and Envelope are in my view a structure to the sound that is present to a very attractive level.

Tube Rolling can offer an immediate noticeable change to an end sound, as Valve exchanges occur. It is this sound difference only that is recognised and the other important qualities of how the end sound is structured can be overlooked, these qualities in some cases will start to manifest after a period of Valve Warm Up.

Valve when being assessed are needing a decent period of Warm Up, to let the settlement happen and for them to show their sweet spot, at least if it is a Valve that possesses a Sweet Spot. 

I am not recommending a Valve, certainly not, the Valve of choice, in the condition wanted is as rare as Hens Teeth.

I am recommending time is allowed for each Valve used to manifest on to its better self.  

 

 I have been back to running NOS.  Sylvania Bad Boys in the output stage

I lucked into a pair of those ('52s I think) and have been running them in the balanced input sockets iof my SLP05.  I love them.  "The Iron Fist" is what the individual who gave them to me called them.  He also gave me  a pair of National Union 6F8G that he described as "The Velvet Glove" and I like them, but for different reasons than I like the "Iron Fists."  If  you wanted to try 6F8Gs, you would need adapters.

What does "musical" really mean?

Ha ha!  I remember a thread on that very subject, @ps  , read at your own peril.

"what does musical mean?"