I'll be interested in hearing your impressions Ozzy. I was leaning heavily in the direction of the Lumin, but decided to give the TEAC NT-505 a try instead. It should arrive next week. I'll share my impressions as well.
Moving up from a Node 2i
I want to keep it between 1K and 1500.00, closer to a grand if at all possible. I don't care about onboard DACs, since I have a keen liking for mine. What is out there for a streamer, new or used, that will sound better than the Node when outputting to an external DAC? I like the functionality of the Node, don't want something with a sketchy user interface. But honestly, I think my old Allo Digione (Raspberry Pi) might have sounded a little more organic and fleshed out than the Node.
What say ye, Audiogon?
Oz
What say ye, Audiogon?
Oz
146 responses Add your response
I just moved from the Node as well. I am super impressed with the Audiolab MDAC Plus. 32 bit capable for BT and super detailed and warm. Highly recommend for $1200 I haven’t heard of the MDAC+, so I looked it up. I couldn’t find any info about it being a streamer? Looks like it’s just a DAC? How do you stream to it? We've been talking about streamers only or streamer/DACs... |
Yes please do report back. After reading this thread it seems many people are not all that sure what they have, how it works or if it really works well. Reviewers seem to like Lumin. Does it work with Amazon Prime? My next buy was slated as the Innuos Zenith MK3 but as cheap as I am and as fast as improvements are coming, I may pick up someone's 2i and wait for even more for even less. |
Stock rPi USB out measures extremely well and I love mine. That said, I recently bought a used Krell Connect that is amazing, but I'm using the krell DAC out, fully balanced differential etc. Probably a bit out of your range even used. I've read good things about Lumin, Audiolab, and Technics streamers, and have them all on my "to try" list. Good luck! |
You should be able to snag an Auralic Aries Bridge for a grand. While the software isn't nearly as good as ROON, Auralic does make both the h/w and the controlling s/w - so it will 'play nice' together. One drawback, however is the fact that the software does require an Apple iPAD for the controller (any version should work) and you can pick up an older one for $100 or so on eBay or Amazon. You can use with a dedicated USB flash drive, USB SSD or a NAS (network attached storage) drive. Not the last word in fidelity, but overall I've been very pleased with my investment. |
All, I always wonder about this too - can someone explain how the “delivery mechanism” (my phrase) of the 1s and 0s of a digital signal can make any difference, and to the extent it does, why is that? I also have the node 2i and am tempted to sell it, get a better dac and run a usb from my iPhone and play tidal. My understanding is that iPhone will unfold mqa. How would this be different than using the node as a streaming source if it just delivers 1 and 0s? I appreciate everyone’s anecdotes but can someone explain the technicalities? That said, on another system using a Schiit dac, data from a cd transport seemed to outperform my Tidal phone stream of the same content via USB. I can think of no technical reason for why this should be... but it does leave me with the uncomfortable idea that a “better” streamer - e.g. the AlloOne products - may have merit to the extent they eliminate electrical noise from data delivery. Please share your thoughts. |
Noise ingress and egress and jitter are issues with transports/streamers... Amir does an excellent job of covering jitter... https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/digital-audio-jitter-fundamentals.1922/#p |
Got started in streaming with a Node2 serving files off my PC. Initially used the Node2’s onboard DAC, but found it lacking when compared to the one in my Resolution Audio Opus 21 CD player. The Opus has a digital-in connection, so I ran the Node2 through it; problem solved. The Node2 made for an inexpensive introduction to streaming and I used it for a couple of years. Unlike other commentors, IME, Bluesound’s technical support was poor. To be fair, my network setup, in particular the security which is required by my work, is fairly complex and their techs didn’t have the expertise to deal with it. Certainly not the level of support one would expect from a network device company. Their fixes were almost always "you need to reconfigure your network" which simply wasn’t going to happen. The most chilling was "you need dedicated storage and should look at ours." There were instances of unprofessional behavior. Someone less technical, with a more standard network and insensitive to technicians pushing the upsell and being rude might be happy with Bluesound’s support. I was certainly not. Started a significant system upgrade early last year and have replaced almost everything. First up was the addition of a QNAP NAS to serve up files (contrary to what the tech who tried to upsell me said, it did not resolve the issues with the Node2). Next, the Node2 was replaced by a SimAudio Moon MiND 2. Did a head-to-head comparison between the two streamers, running both through the Opus’ DAC. The Mind 2 bested the Node2 by a significant margin. The MiND 2 delivered a decidedly cleaner and fuller sound. Just more of everything. Also did blind tests with friends and the result was the same. Their impressions of the MiND 2 echoed mine. So far I am extremely happy with the Mind 2 and now have it paired with a Benchmark DAC3. My one disappointment with the MiND 2 is that its Android interface software was lacking (word is the Apple version is better). That was fixed through an upgrade to Roon, which is a fantastic product. So good that I bought a perpetual license. Can’t comment on SimAudio or Roon’s technical support. Their products are so well thought out and designed that I haven’t had a single issue. Not one! The price for just the MiND is a little over your budget, but not by a lot. Happy to answer any questions you might have, too. Good luck with the upgrade. |
I received my TEAC NT-505 yesterday and had a chance to do some listening last night. Here are my first impressions compared to my Node 2, which was using my Auralic Vega DAC (via coax) instead of the Node 2's internal DAC. The NT-505 has a larger soundstage, better imaging, is more detailed, and is slightly warmer. I know the Node 2 sounded better with the Vega than it's internal DAC, so it's a definite step up from the Node 2. I have no way of saying how much difference the streamer itself made, as there's no way to connect the NT-505 to an external DAC, so I couldn't try it with the Vega as the DAC for a more "apples to apples" comparison. I can't say that any of the improvements were "dramatic", they were all subtle, but do add up to a better listening experience, at least on first blush. I can see myself spending more time doing "critical listening" while streaming. Most of the time, I have used the Node 2 as background music, or to play music from my network. Whenever I make changes to my system it usually takes a while before I notice all the little nuances, so I'm looking forward to spending more time with it. Is it worth four times the cost of a Node 2? I think it will be over the long run, but that's up to the individual. The Lumin software (I'm using that instead of TEAC's) was a little confusing at first, but I like that it just hooked up to the NT-505 right away, you don't have to go through the process of connecting to the unit like you do with the Bluesound devices. I wish it had Radio Paradise, but other than that, I think it meets my needs. It didn't take me long to get familiar with the interface, but I don't think it's as intuitive as the Bluesound app. As time allows I'll play around with some of the upsampling features and may get the Master Clock Generator at some point. |
@ozzy62 Just wanted to pass along my recent experience of adding a Schiit Gungnir MB to the Node 2 that has been in my system for a few years now. I am using the coax out to the GungnirMB and balanced XLR into the Luxman 507uxii. The difference is so massive it's not even funny. I was hesitant thinking "how much better could it actually be?". It is better and by a wide margin. This has been a very good value upgrade for the result. I'm not going to get into making claims like it sound like vinyl or better that this or that because I don't have anything to compare it to other than the Node2 but it is so much clearer, plays to greater extension at both ends and has removed some digital harshness that existed when turned up louder. I still have the Node 2 hooked up through it's RCA - for MQA - and can a/b which makes it easy to tell the difference. I though that MQA from the Node would still best CD from the GMB but it doesn't. Not even close. I use this mostly for streaming but also have some music on a local NAS as well. I would definitely give this a shot if you have the chance. Good luck! |
@ mattshere that’s nice. But also to be expected and not surprising especially with your choice of DAC. Isn’t it awesome tho??!! what we really need to hear and quantify , per the OP’s question, is what happens to overall SQ if you replace the Node 2 with a dedicated (DAC-less) streamer: Lumin U1 mini, Innous zen, project, etc. still use your Schiit, but change out the node 2 or 2i. what happens, why, and how much? |
@mattshere - Glad that the Schiit is providing you with such an upgrade from the Node2 itself. One thing you should keep in mind regarding playback of MQA files is that when using the Node's digital output you are still hearing MQA's first unfold (typically either 88.2 or 96kHz) being output to the DAC for decoding. That's generally believed to be the most significant portion of the MQA process and you're not losing it when using the Node's digital output to a non-MQA DAC like the Schiit. Enjoy!!! |
@ianrmack99 @ozzy62 @bill_k Yeah I see now I completely missed the point of the thread. My bad fellas...:) I would also like to change out the Node to see what improvements can be made but I am comfortable with the interface - it really does a lot of things well. I’ve currently got Roon installed to demo but I’ve not fallen for it like I thought I might. I prefer BluOS for multi-room management and I like the fact that all the services are right there at your fingertips. I really enjoy Radio Paradise as well which Roon can’t do I don’t think. Even if the sound is a bit better from another streamer I don’t think I could make the switch. Unless I went with something from Nad which uses BluOS. Looking forward to hearing how the Lumin mini works out for you. M |
well, ive heard the Lumin app does rival BluOS. BluOS still does not handle Apple Music which is a bummer. I also like the Node's "back-up" use of Bluetooth. I live in downtown Chicago where Xfinity/Comcast internet is FAST...but over the past 6 months it has been going down a TON and it's nice to switch over to BT and keep listening. The Lumin is THE only other product on my radar for a (DAC-less) streamer. Come on, Ozzy, whats taking you so long...?...;-) |
Well it just arrived late yesterday. I found out that Lumin strongly recommends running minim server on the NAS, so I downloaded that and found my library while waiting on the delivery. Setup was painless, even easier than the Node. I have it running in on repeat for a few days, but out of the box the sound was very good. I don't want to say too much too soon, but it sounds more dimensional than the Node, or another way to say it is perhaps "less flat". Still undecided on the Lumin control app. It's not bad, but not sure if it's as good as Bluos. After fiddling with it a little last night I was starting to get used to it, so time will tell. Oz |
I was going to stay with my Node 2i but the Lumin stayed an itch to scratch. I went with the D2 as I wanted the intergrated dac, I think the Lunmin Is more neutral and musical especially at higher volumes. Application wise it seems very old school and in need of a redesign, I’ve decided not to use it and use Roon as the front end. |
One of the things I like about the Lumin app over BluOS is adding multiple songs that are not in order on an album or playlist to the Play Queue in one go. In the Lumin app’s settings, I have “Tap on Song List” = “Double Tap” and “Play Now”. This allows a multi-selection playlist-building process that makes it really easy to quickly build a play queue. With this setup, I can bring up an album or playlist in Qobuz, single tap on all the songs I want (tap again to unselect something) and the “Add to Playlist” bottom menu appears with icons for Play Now, Play Next, Play Later, and Play and Replace. The support page for the app was usefull at figuring out what some of the icons meant in the UI: http://www.luminmusic.com/support-app.html I also like the popup you get when pressing and holding anything (album, song, artist). Tap the thumbnail of the image in that popup and you get the high-resolution artwork full screen. |
Application wise it seems very old school and in need of a redesign, I’ve decided not to use it and use Roon as the front end. It is a bit of a non-standard interface, and no arguing that Roon is far superior, but for non-Roon users, despite its quirks, the app does a number of things better than BluOS. Here are some: —Lumin app updates TIDAL and Qobuz favorites on any refresh. BluOS takes forever to show things I’ve added via the native apps in my favorites, whether it’s artists, albums, playlist updates, etc. So I can curate and discover on the native apps while playing anything newly added on the Lumin right away via the Lumin app. —Lumin app will show bit depth and sample rate of the track playing. BluOS refuses to add this data (read their forums) and instead insist that the user wants to have that info simplified to just some icons that show HR or CD or the squiggly MQA logo; in fairness, some like the icons better than numbers, but I wish they made it an option to show us the actual bit-depth/SR that is being streamed. Cheers, Mike |
I keep using it just to ensure I know how it works, i've only took a year subscription to Roon, I'm not really into the metadata but really like I can select a track and use the music feature for it to select and play music based on that selection. At the minute i'm then saving these selections as playlists after a few hours for future use. It also make it easy to select my Sonos speakers. Maybe at the end of the year i'll swap back to Lumin, although Roon is good its an additional cost. But i really like my D2 Cheers Phil |
@highpeakrider I agree with everything you say about Roon to include the ease you can select other endpoints. The Roon radio and new music discovery features look very useful too. I’m removing the computer and NAS completely from my audio chain so Roon is out for me without a “core”. That’s why I’ve been trying these streamers and their apps. I sort of reproduce your method of saving related-song selections as playlists by saving TIDAL’s “My Mix” playlists (which are list of related songs I should like based on my playing and favoriting history) and duplicating the songs I like/fav to Qobuz. I’m thinking about trying Soundiiz Premium and doing that “sync” automatically across multiple services. |
Just did a test at a local dealer between the Vault 2 which is my current streamer and the Innuos Zenith mk3. The dealer set up a system consisting of DCS Bartok DAC, Gryphon integrated and Rockport Atria 2 speakers. There was a difference in signal path as the Vault was connected to the DAC via SPDIF and Zenith connected via USB. After listening to 3 well known tracks on the Zenith then switching over and listening to the same 3 tracks on the Vault, it was not hard to hear the difference. The Zenith is bigger with better defined / separated images in comparison to the Vault which sounds slightly muted in comparison. I also like Innuos's integration with Roon and being able to configure the Zenith as a core. Lastly, the potential to improve SQ down the road with their newly released Phoenix re-clocker (which I did not hear) is also interesting. I purchased the Zenith but you have to hand it to Bluesound, their price / performance is outstanding. |
| Post removed |
I also have Apple Music and prefer its playlists over the Tidal ones, i’m also using Soundiiz to transfer from AM to Tidal which then flow into Roon. Phil, that’s very interesting. I have Apple Music too. Do you use the “Sync” feature of Soundiiz or do you manually select the Apple Music (AM) playlists you want to convert to playlists in TIDAL for one-way transfer? With Soundiiz, can I move my TIDAL favorites *into* Apple Music or is it only AM *out* to other services. I read somewhere that the Soundiiz implementation of the Apple Music API’s didn’t allow modification of AM playlists but I think that’s only deletions, not additions. Trying to get some confirmation from someone who has done AM-TIDAL-Qobuz sync via Soundiiz. Cheers, Mike |
So for those of us getting their first streamer and feeling a bit gun-shy about big expenditures, is the consensus that the Node2i does a decent job, in its class? I would say yes, I liked mine, but if you move to very good amp and speaker space the better streamers do seem to provide a more musical and detailed experience. You do pay a lot more for that jump though. |
So for those of us getting their first streamer and feeling a bit gun-shy about big expenditures, is the consensus that the Node2i does a decent job, in its class? At its price point the Node 2i is a fantastic value. It has a decent DAC, does just about everything, and the Bluesound app is very good. |
hilde45 said: So for those of us getting their first streamer and feeling a bit gun-shy about big expenditures, is the consensus that the Node2i does a decent job, in its class? I love the Node 2i (even if I do at times mention a competitor’s feature I like better). It was my first stand-alone streamer. I would probably still be feeding my DAC via USB from my Mac and Audirvana, but the reasonable price made it easy to try it. I got the Lumin U1 Mini next, but kept the Node 2i because it has so many supported streaming services (Bluesound is very good at adding these). Oh, and Bluesound was quick to support AirPlay 2 for many of their players if that matters to you; most streamers only support AirPlay [1] if they support it at all. |
I have a decent rig and I use a BS node 2i to a chord Qutest and it sounds...uh...great...? moved up from an Apple TV and it was MUCH better. what I missed, and now get, is the importance of the “control app” and I like the BluOS app a lot. what we all are wanting to know is if the streamer itself, with the same DAC, can make a big difference. sure, you can throw money at any problem, but most of us are curious about a solution that is between $1,000 and $2,000 and if that will produce objectively bette SQ. |
what we all are wanting to know is if the streamer itself, with the same DAC, can make a big difference.Most streamers include a DAC by design. As you yourself noted, the Lumin U1 Mini appears to be the only device in the $1K - $2K space that is a streamer only. Let's wait and see what Ozzy has to say once he's had a chance to listen for a bit. I'm willing to bet that the Lumin is going to sound better than the Node 2i using the same external DAC. |
...but most of us are curious about a solution that is between $1,000 and $2,000 and if that will produce objectively better SQ.True. Outside of measurements it’s all subjective though; I’ll just quote myself from the first page of this thread: FWIW, I don’t think the U1mini is an upgrade as much as a nice side-grade to get a great app and excellent support. Upgrades to DAC, amp, speakers/headphones would yield more significant improvements.Some don’t like the Lumin app, but it was one of the selling points for me. |
