I want to keep it between 1K and 1500.00, closer to a grand if at all possible. I don't care about onboard DACs, since I have a keen liking for mine. What is out there for a streamer, new or used, that will sound better than the Node when outputting to an external DAC? I like the functionality of the Node, don't want something with a sketchy user interface. But honestly, I think my old Allo Digione (Raspberry Pi) might have sounded a little more organic and fleshed out than the Node.
All three sound exactly the same used as a streamer. No difference.
You have earlier stated that there was a big difference between the streamers, especially when you tested the Zen Mini MKIII with the PhoenixUSB reclocker. Did you change your mind?
I have a Lumin U1 Mini and a Node 2i here used as a streamer into a Chord Qutest. I also used to own a Zen Mini MKIII. All three sound exactly the same used as a streamer. No difference. The DAC makes the difference much more than any transport/streamer IME. It's the interface above all else that makes the difference between these brands. I use Roon, and again, no sound (for me) difference between going from a Lumin U1 mini or Node 2i into my DAC. Amp used is a Pass Labs INT-25, Nordost cables. Oh and I also have a dedicated room for audio only.
I was disappointed with my Node 2i So I connected the optical out to my Schiit Gugnier DAC then through Audience Ohno cables to my amp. Sounds much much better. I used the optical out because the Coax input was occupied with the output from an Audiolab CDT transport. (On sale now for $500, $50 off. AA and Crutchfield) A cheap Monoprice Optical cable has turned out to be amazingly good.
Interesting thread. I am very interested in any followup after 2 months. In my quest to restart my audiophileness after a divorce and 3 kids (I'm 61 and own zero vinyl and only 10 CD's for my car) I am going totally digital (Qobuz at 192khz, 96khz and whatever Hi-Res I can find to stream - who needs to buy anymore at $20+ per month for alot of great music). I have an engineering background and respect for designers (I am not a designer) and love classic rock and jazz. I spent $12K+ on Rogue Magnum amp and Vandy Treo Ct speakers. Working on my streamer/DAC parts.
I live in NJ, 5 miles from John Rutan at audioconnect and he has been gracious enough to lend me some streamer+ to try out. I have learned a few things (in no particular order):
1. I think we are at just he start of the "digital revolution"
2. There are a lot of designers working this and 10x+ reviewers with a lot of opinions
3. What sounds better is a function of our individual ears and brain. Its like tasting wine and food (which is easier to describe in words) but still hard.
4. The perfect sweat spot of toe in etc. makes me laugh cause who actually lives sitting in a single chair for hours on end just listening. I am currently sitting to the side of my setup listening to Jeff Beck at 96khz and just keep smiling at the memories.
5. I am now listening to Beck thru Innuos Zen MK3 (streamer) into a Ayre Codex (DAC) and Rogue tube amp and Treo CT speakers and it sounds great (I am also drinking craft IPA's at 1 AM - LOL), anyway...
6. Streamers --- I find that, similar to the 1970's, the "all in one solution" is a trade off. Specialized components are being developed. For instance, a company specializing in streamers (receiving super clean clean square waves of digital ones and zeroes) include a less than DAC and less than power supply and vice versa. This is similar to me how current HIFI components developed.
7. All that rambling aside (most likely 50% wrong), it is a very uncertain time on how I should spend my middle class $$ for a streamer, DAC and the power supply argument. Its like trying to pick out a $75 bottle of wine at the liquor store (beer is cheaper and I found my favorite craft IPA's at $15 a 4 pack), the audio "experts" tell us to go listen. It comes down I suppose to trusting your local HIFI dealer.
8. ANYWAY, I am trying to find the best components to handle Streaming and DAC with real good power supplies at ~$3K. I am currently running Innuos Zen MK3 (loaner - new is $2,600) to a Ayres Codex (used for $1,100). My current targets are Lumin U1 Mini with upgraded SBooster PS at $2,400 and Innuos Zen Mini MK3 with upgraded PS at $1,950. Note that the Innuos includes CD ripping and 1 TB storage (which I don't necessarily need) and the Lumin is supposedly a straight streamer. I would keep my Codex at this point unless otherwise convinced.
Thanks for listening, any advice would be appreciated
@jeenam91 Since you're interested in good value :-) The RME dac comes with a five band parametric eq and a loudness functionality where you actually set your minimum listening level and the degree of loudness you like at this level and then automatically adjust this loudness gradually to zero at your "zero" or "loud" listening level. Which is fixed to 20 db above your choosed min level. In addition to this a state of the art pro dac. A rather complete package I think.
@gosta Yeah all good with Sonos until they decide to discontinue updates for whatever you purchased from them. On those grounds I would never purchase a Sonos device.
I stream Tidal on my Bluesound Node 2i and I have never seen my screen laid out like this. I will need to find out how to use all it offers. Still hope they come out with a new Bluesound that can hi res video/audio to look at concerts such as Brit Floyd.
I would agree with you. The ProJect is a cheap DAC. However, when you connect a DAC to the Bluesound Node 2i, it breaks up the complete unfold of MQA. I don't know why MQA sounds better. For some reason I sense a larger sound stage and clarity. I must be crazy because no one this group likes MQA. The only thing I dislike about the Bluesound is that it does not display the resolution like a DAC does. It would be nice to know if you are listening to 24/96 or 24/192. So far I prefer Tidal. Tried Amazon Prime Hi Res and I liked the way Tidal interfaces better with Bluesound. I hope Bluesound will come out with a unit that can handle both audio and video. This would be really nice when viewing concerts.
Actually you lose 2/3rds. A full MQA decode unfolds (3) times. The Node2 does the first unfold via it's digital outputs.
I have been told that the first unfold is the most critical, however I haven't been able to verify it.
In my setup, the Node2 out to my DAC, (via coax) doing the first unfold, (on MQA material) sounds better than the full MQA decode via the Node2's internal DAC. My standalone DAC is not an MQA DAC.
I think CA just added Roon support to the CNX V2 , $1,100. I just fired up a trial of Roon and now I to am a believer. Found my Bryston pi lick split. And wow what a slick interface. Currently running the core on my Mac mini. Next upgrade is to get a core appliance.
@larry5729 Sounds as though you simply prefer the sound of the built-in node 2i DAC. Looking at the price of the Project S2 DAC I wouldn't suspect it's a very impressive bit of kit. Step up to something like the NAD M51 DAC I use for digital to analog conversion and you will definitely hear a significant difference in sound quality. If I were you I'd return the S2 and get a refund. Simple as that.
@b_limo The 2i has 3 advantages over the older 2, and they are minimal.
1. The 2i supports Apple Airplay.
2. The 2i built-in DAC sounds better than the 2. This only matters if you’re using the built-in DAC.
3. The 2i wifi supports 802.11ac. 802.11ac has greater throughput capabilities than the 802.11b/g/n supported by the node 2, but this doesn’t matter if your wifi signal strength is strong or you use the wired ethernet connection.
If you don’t use Apple Airplay, the built-in DAC, and don’t have issues with wifi signal strength from your wireless router there’s no benefit to purchasing the 2i over the 2.
I ended up buying a Bluesound Node 2i and the dealer talked me into buying a ProJect S2 DAC and connecting it with an Audioquest Carbon coax cable. In doing so you lose 9/10 of the MQA unfold. So I unhooked the DAC and played MQA recordings by streaming TIDAL and I liked the sound of the Bluesound played by itself. For some reason, I heard a difference playing MQA recordings. However, most in this group do not believe in MQA. However, I still thought MQA had a larger size sound stage. When I hooked up the ProJect DAC the bass sounded thinner even though I have a pair REL S2 SHO subwoofers which I play at 40%. I wonder if the more expensive DAC's make a difference. However, if you add a DAC I lose MQA complete unfold. I wonder why most in the group dislike MQA. I wonder if they resent the guy who invented a proprietary technology to unfold the data. I must be crazy because I really feel MQA sounds better.
I’ve been using a Bluesound Node 2i now for a few months and love it. Zero issues with my $400 refurbed unit that I bought. I stream Amazon HD, Tidal HiFi and Qobuz and they all sound fantastic! I’ve read that the Node 2i is superior to the Node 2.
I also read that the soundstage isn’t that deep and I totally agree with that, but beyond that, the 2i is fantastic.
I’ll eventually buy a better dac, and then a better stand alone streamer, but am completely satisfied with the 2i for now and will be for awhile!
@larry5729 ,you’ve only ever used 1 streamer, correct? The 2i? And only 2 dacs? ProJect, 2i? Or do you have a BelCanto now? Interesting that 6 months ago, you didn’t know what a dac was, now you seem to be an expert on the dac / streamer arena 👍
I have 4+ computers, a mobile phone and a tablet. It's nice to control the Node 2 from whichever device I happen to be using at the moment. Why limit yourself to control with just a single device? =D
I have the BluOS running on an Apple iPhone SE, a Dell Venue 7 tablet and an Amazon Fire HD8 with excellent results. No need for a computer?
I have also never had any "flakiness" with the Node 2 which I’ve had from almost the time they came out, (like 3 years now). Never had an issue with the updates either.
I run my Node 2 out via coax to a DAC. I’ve also have it hooked up though the RCA outputs so that I can A/B it’s internal DAC with the outboard DAC.
This begs the question, why are you using the app on a Mac, or any computer for that matter? The Bluos app works great on a tablet. I was using a Samsung Tab A with great results.
Running a Node 2 here for close to a year. Mine has never been 'flaky'. I'm specifically posting this in response to the previous poster who reported his was 'flaky'. I do not use the built-in DAC and have always used coax digital to an external DAC.
The Bluesound app is another issue altogether. On Mac the latest version as of the date of this post wouldn't load all my favorite albums so I had to revert back to an older version. The app uses a ridiculous amount of CPU on Mac and Windows which I'm guessing is due to the constant polling of the device. The iOS app also has a bug where it flips back to albums at the exact same spot (albums starting with C) so even if I've already scrolled down to albums that begin with with a letter further down in the alphabet, upon going 'back' through the UI the app has to reload all albums further down in the list alphabetically instead of returning to the exact same place of the album I had selected to view the tracks of.
However these are minor bugs that I can deal with as other streamers lack the ability to stream as many internet sources, or they have ridiculously high price tags.
A little late to the party but thought I would mention that I went from a Node 2 to the Cambridge CXN v2 and found it to be a solid upgrade. The Node was always a little flaky but the CN has been rock solid. The onboard DAC performs well and the unit supports running things balanced which is a nice bonus.
I found a Bryston Pi for ~$600. Took a few weeks to get it up and running, had to get a new OS snail mailed from Bryston. Manic Moose interface is spartan compared to my Sonos. iPad Safari is particularly annoying. Nice not to have another app to deal with. I am comparing it to various digital sources now (Wyred for Sound mod’s Sonos, iPad streaming 16/44 radio). So far I really like it. The big knock for me is the Radio Paradise app that plays FLAC does not work and it only appears to stream Tidal and Qobuz. Prolly find another place to use the old Sonos zone player until Sonos kills it with a software update. Use my iPad to stream Radio Paradise FLAC. Use the Pi to stream Qobuz and play Higher Rez file purchases.
Right, the consensus is the Node 2i is the perfect $500 device. I had a basic Emotiva XDA-2 and had been focused on upgrading speakers and amps. Once that was done, I was in a dilemma into how much more would be needed to show notable performance over the Node. The answer seemed to be more like $1,500+. Wanting to stick to the $1,000 range I found a used Lumin D1. Wow, that is very much a sweet spot of performance value.
Just to be clear. If the improvement I heard out of the box was all there was,I wouldn't have spent the $$ either. That said, after some hours on the Lumin the improvement was great enough to justify the expense. If I only had 500.00 to spend on a streamer, the Node is a no brainer. But I don't regret shelling out the extra cash for the mini.
Yes, it was four times the cost. But I have paid more for less, as I think we all have at some point in our audio journey.
@ozzy62 ...thanks for taking us on your odyssey. All of this has convinced me to just hang on to my Bluesound Node2 for awhile.
Everyone who posted said that they did improve upon the Node2’s performance, but it was not by a huge margin.
This is the fastest growing sector, (servers, streamers and DACs) of high-end audio, that tomorrow there will be something better.
My rig sounds absolutely wonderful that spending 4+ times the money for marginal improvement just doesn’t make sense "right now".
I’m hoping for a one-piece solution down the road that rivals what is available now. I have a high-end audio manufacturer friend of mine that has just gotten the new NAD C658, that he can’t shut up about. ESS Sabre DAC, BluOS, DIRAC Live, modular design. Maybe I might try one of these...
After allowing the Lumin U1 mini to burn in for around 100 hours the gap widened between it and the Node 2i. I believe the Lumin is more transparent and tonally more natural than the Node. I am keeping the U1 mini and selling the Node. It's not a huge difference, but I find I enjoy music through the Lumin more when the dust settles.
@gelle, that’s what it’s about: find what works best with your gear. The 105 has a great DAC and Oppo always had good USB implementations in their universal players. Too bad their done; I have a 205 and it’s probably the last disc-spinner I’ll ever own.
@jetter There's nothing wrong with your system your Museatex-Meitner Dac is just better than what's in the Node. Same with my Auralic Aries Mini its internal Dac is just ok, outputting to an external Dac it sounds great.
From my limited knowledge of streaming, it’s seems the consensus is USB seems better than coax?
It's been a few years, but I did a shootout with all the various digital output types when I had a bunch of gear that allowed it.
My findings, (and this strictly MY preference) were:
1. Tie---I2S and Firewire (very rare to find) 2. AES/EBU 3. Coax on BNC 4. Coax on RCA 5. USB 6. Glass Fiber 7. Toslink
This was probably 4-5 years ago. Has the USB interface changed? I found it to be one of my least favorite? Just curious, because I've never looked back towards USB after this...
From my limited knowledge of streaming, it’s seems the consensus is USB seems better than coax?
Actually, my experience has been...it depends. Some of my equipment is too noisy on its USB output (on that system I use Toslink due to the galvanic isolation). And as @laserjock1963 pointed out, my Node 2i doesn’t have USB so I had to decide if I liked the Coax or the Toslink better. So, my stance is choose the interconnects between your gear that provides the best experience for you.
There is probably something wrong about my system, as I love the way my Node 2i sounds, with a older modded Museatex-Meitner DAC. Not so much with the built in DAC.
But to be honest, I locked into the 60's and 70's station and haven't looked back.
Chris, Totally agree. BTW, appreciate your posts on AVS Forums as well. And, FWIW, I could not tell the difference between the Node 2i via coax and the U1 Mini via coax into the same DAC. Great value in the Node 2i.
But Lumin U1 Mini via USB was a little better than the Node 2i via coax into the same DAC.
@m1k3I I was just saying to be fair to the Node you would need to do the same to the Lumin as far as the way it outputs. If the Node could do USB to DAC it might be different but since it’s limited to SPDIF/Coax/fiber optic to separate DAC the only fair way to judge between the two is use the exact same implementation
I want to get a streaming system put together and was considering the Lumin U1 mini and connect it to a topping D70 DAC. But then I wondered if going from a $2K streamer into a $500 DAC was the right combo, and maybe not the reverse - a $500 streamer and $2K DAC. Not sure what combo would yield the best results while staying at or under $2500. Any combo suggestions? I don't need a CD ripper as I already have all my music ripped onto an SSD.
Looking to move from squeezebox touch. Currently have the SBT connected to oppo 105(usb via EDO).analog into my Marantz 7005. Is the Node 2i a suitable replacement? BTW using Roon instead of LMS. TIA
The Vault doesn't support wireless either. Initially I tried Ethernet over powerline but that was noisy. I then tried an inexpensive extender like big_greg and crn mentioned, but I experienced dropouts from time to time. I finally installed Google mesh and that was the ticket for me. Very good performance throughout the house and it has a feature that allows you to prioritize your streamer if there is competing demand from others devices on the network.
My TEAC streamer does not have a wifi option. I used one of these to create a wireless client which allows me to run Ethernet cable from the client to the streamer. 25 bucks from Newegg.
kalali said: I don’t see any references to support for WiFi in some of these “better” streamers. If WiFi is a requirement, what would be a recommendation for an upgrade from the Node2/2i?
Don’t let WiFi, or lack there of, color your decision making process. Assuming that you DO have WiFi in your house, all you need is a simple WiFi extender. They can be had for as little as $30. If you go to Upscale Audio’s website, and look at their streamer selections, you’ll see that for any streamer that is Ethernet only they recommend a simple extender easily available on Amazon. I have a Bel Canto e.One Stream and I’m using an old Apple AirPort Express WiFi extender and it works like a champ.
Different digital methods could make the difference. Do it over using same methods of transfer.
It’s hard to compare with all the permutations we have for connecting our streamers and DACs. Finding the most synergistic digital path is key for me when testing, not necessarily comparing the same connections. The Lumin U1 Mini has 5 ways to output digital; the Node 2i has 2.
I’ve read many forum posts that say the Lumin U1 Mini’s AES/EBU output may be the best sounding. I couldn’t test that; I don’t have a DAC with an XLR input for AES.
I found the best synergy, and subsequent sound quality, for the U1 Mini to my RME ADI-2 DAC was USB. A DAC with a lesser USB implementation may do better with S/PDIF or AES.
The best sound quality out of the Node 2i for my setup was S/PDIF-Coax to the ADI-2 DAC.
Sound quality between the two connected this way, subjectively: I like the U1 Mini better than the Node 2i, but it isn’t a huge difference. They are both very good.
I don’t see any references to support for WiFi in some of these “better” streamers. If WiFi is a requirement, what would be a recommendation for an upgrade from the Node2/2i?
...but most of us are curious about a solution that is between $1,000 and $2,000 and if that will produce objectively better SQ.
True. Outside of measurements it’s all subjective though; I’ll just quote myself from the first page of this thread:
FWIW, I don’t think the U1mini is an upgrade as much as a nice side-grade to get a great app and excellent support. Upgrades to DAC, amp, speakers/headphones would yield more significant improvements.
Some don’t like the Lumin app, but it was one of the selling points for me.
what we all are wanting to know is if the streamer itself, with the same DAC, can make a big difference.
Most streamers include a DAC by design. As you yourself noted, the Lumin U1 Mini appears to be the only device in the $1K - $2K space that is a streamer only. Let's wait and see what Ozzy has to say once he's had a chance to listen for a bit. I'm willing to bet that the Lumin is going to sound better than the Node 2i using the same external DAC.
I have a decent rig and I use a BS node 2i to a chord Qutest and it sounds...uh...great...? moved up from an Apple TV and it was MUCH better.
what I missed, and now get, is the importance of the “control app” and I like the BluOS app a lot.
what we all are wanting to know is if the streamer itself, with the same DAC, can make a big difference.
sure, you can throw money at any problem, but most of us are curious about a solution that is between $1,000 and $2,000 and if that will produce objectively bette SQ.
So for those of us getting their first streamer and feeling a bit gun-shy about big expenditures, is the consensus that the Node2i does a decent job, in its class?
I love the Node 2i (even if I do at times mention a competitor’s feature I like better). It was my first stand-alone streamer. I would probably still be feeding my DAC via USB from my Mac and Audirvana, but the reasonable price made it easy to try it. I got the Lumin U1 Mini next, but kept the Node 2i because it has so many supported streaming services (Bluesound is very good at adding these). Oh, and Bluesound was quick to support AirPlay 2 for many of their players if that matters to you; most streamers only support AirPlay [1] if they support it at all.
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