My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
I'm wondering if WC feels the same about the SR Powercell, based upon his comment that he might be done with power conditioning. This time around, he seemed impressed with the Powercell, however, I am guessing that he eventually detected some things that he did not like and decided that exluding the Powercell was a preference for him. I'm sure different power conditioners contribute some good things - the question is - does that outweigh what they take away? Dave |
@viber6 , @tweak1 , Rich Hollis of Hollis Audio Lab is building a line source speaker and uses DSP to time delay the drivers ( which are electronically crossovered and driven by separate amps) taking into account the differences in distance from the drivers in the vertical array to the listener's ears to make the array time aligned. |
tweak1, Scaena speakers are a contender. As much as I like ribbons, tall line sources are not time-aligned, because the distance to your ears from the top and bottom is different from in the middle, with infinite variations between. The Scaena doesn't appear to be that tall, so this problem is a little minimized. But the Wilsons ARE time aligned, which is a big factor in their clarity. The XLF has extraordinary treble clarity from the main tweeter which is uniquely used down to 1000 Hz, a big advantage. Still, Jay should audition the Scaena, since listening is better than theory. |
Jay--Bummed. Missed your live chat. Please give us one of those heads-up coming attraction video posts maybe a week ahead. Here too ( did I miss it?). Maybe a dual chat with Mike of Sun Audio next. Once a month would be cool. Hopefully not when I'm at the dentist. Noticed you've garnered some international attention. |
Well, i just put the system back in full synergy mode and here is how it is sounding: https://youtu.be/DQ8OCEVP6_o |
I found that my PSAudio Power Plant was overall, slightly detrimental, especially to my amplifier. Shedding it for a passive system focused on cleaning up the grounding path really ended up opening the sound up and lowering noise floor without the downsides of the conditioner. Will be interesting if WC reaches a similar conclusion. |
I’m working on noise suppression going forward. I believe i might be done with power conditioners (again, this is not 100%). I have slowly picked up the flavor inserted by some of these power conditioners. This is a great topic for a future video so I’ll leave it at that. Before anyone assumes anything, no I’m am saying sell your power conditioners. They have a place in most systems out there and most of you would totally benefit from it. The biggest enemy is NOISE (floor noise). The issue is too much filtering also murders a lot of the "meat and potatoes" of the presentation. It's like doing chemotherapy: you kill the cancerous cells as well as good ones. |
Will try to, Jay doing an excellent job creating interest in music lovers which is really nice to see. Fortunately for me cost would never limit my choices, but I love value because it always ties to the truth. My point with where I imagine Jay to be at in his journey is I don’t believe he has yet completely (and happy to be corrected if I am wrong ) had the epiphany that he keeps arriving at nearly the same destination with an almost infinite combination of gear when he stumbles on the right combo in his room, hence the Ref6 "stunning" experience. I would argue most of those experiences are falling back on something already attained. Take his speakers and mystery class A amps in his current system. Despite what the designers claim, there have been literally zero disruptive changes in the design of both of those items in decades. Big boxed multi-ways with passive crossovers are still horribly inefficient transducers and distortion and phase generators. Mostly what they do is produce loss and the designer, especially the bigger they get, is tasked mostly with trying to contain the collateral damage to the signal as much as possible. The amps we all preferred in the shootout are the same basic circuit design with multiple output devices from 40 years ago. Differing by design in the complexities of the driver stages and PS and the modes of feedback that companies attach fancy names to suggest breakthroughs. Priced by varying degrees of craftsmanship that we can all appreciate and value as well. Seasoned amp designers around in the 70’s still active might even claim what a pity it is that WC paid so much for output devices in those monoblocks that are likely inferior to the ones they had back in the day, or the stash they have in their closet waiting for their last amp they make for themselves before they hang it up. Contrast that to the enormous disruption in the digital source space. Esoteric makers of DACs are scrambling to fill the 3 chassis 100lb DAC behemoths with god knows what of meaning as a remnant to the late 90’s when we all assumed the reason digital sucked so bad was moslty bad analog output stages. So the fad was to produce DAC’s with insanely overbuilt output stages equivalent to small power amps. Turned out the problem with digital was in fact digital. Digital is being completely turned on its ear and 16/44 can now compete with good vinyl for one reason only, code, which takes up little space. High resolution DAC’s are now easily contained in reasonable boxes and are being fed incredibly high quality pre-processed data streams from other boxes not much more than nice quiet computers with mostly intellectual property inside residing in the FPGA code. DACs are teeing off on the quality of this stream as they are now freed from any processing, relegated to conversion only. My guess was that Jay is eventually going to have increasing clarity of when his money is being put to work and when it is not. In most, that tends to change habits regardless of resources. |
Good first post and welcome, post more often. The thing I disagree with tho is that for WC cost isn’t really ever a concern and he almost never voluntarily takes a step backward in quality. There are rare occasions but always temporary before it is onward and upward ( possible exception once being at Vivaldi level at DAC and maybe never getting back to that level). It’s a pretty addicting path to follow. Glad it’s his money and not mine, lol |
A few comments on some side topics percolating within this thread. One relating to opinion/taste in audio and the other to SOTA sound and does it need to cost a fortune. I get we are in the era of forced equality of outcomes. My 8 year old twin boys played in a Y league hoops game today where they don't keep score....ever. But the reality in audio is no different than in life, there are things done better and there are individuals whose opinions on said better are earned and more valued and groups of said people could rather predictably form a general consensus on the basic qualities common to better gear. From that perch, personal preference for presentation and style has a safe home and it can flourish, hence many versions of best in class. As an example, we can all agree no one wants spurious noise in any reproduction. We are also all entitled to our opinion. Amps and transducers even many today of high caliber still often can struggle to get piano right. If someone prefers a crappy rendition of piano that is perfectly fine. That preference however changes nothing as it relates to performance. From the sound of things, and I am new to Jay's crazy world (and have not read this thread except recent pages) , his opinion in '16 when he started would not have been particularly useful. But now it is quite valuable for a variety of reasons none less his refreshing candidness and vast experience with the esoteric. As he just acknowledged this is a task very high in error particularly when inexperienced. I'm guessing too there is a long list of gear he'd like another crack at as he's gained experience. Safe to assume as well that Jay is knowingly or unknowingly honing his personal preferences largely by accident as we all do "arriving" at some imperfect previously unknown version of it and then messing it up almost immediately.(Jay faster than most LOL) Plenty of ying and yang in this hobby, chase one thing and you are bound to lose another. Which brings us to Jay's current set of preferences in a decent sized room. Of apparent high value is ultimate scale and maximum uncompressed dynamic capabilities with the last octave present with the ability to go into high SPL unwavering. Check. Those values elevate the cost / complexity equation significantly. Those values also by necessity invite easily predictable subtle limitations as well where smaller less complex systems gain a subtle edge that can stay in the realm of best in class overall. Interestingly, 70% of the music selections Jay gravitates too would perform better with the latter. Certainly this most recent duel. 20 years ago there was no digital source from 16/44K that by today's digital source standards would make the grade. Not one. In 1999 I had 4 of Jeff Kalt's Resolution Audio Quantum DAC's running in true differential mode with the best dac chip made at the time the UltraAnalog. Today that setup gets smoked by a $2k NOS DAC from China getting fed a low jitter signal juiced by a well executed FPGA. Right now as I type I am listening through a $4k fully balanced AVC preamp from Great Britian that uses 4 Slagle autoformers and fet switches that it would not shock me if it illuminated more of the quality of Jays MSB stack than his Solution pre that is hitting the road. My point is, back down Jay's current preferences at the extremes by 10%, pick a proper sized speaker for the room you are in, and the source and component quality that is available today and the sound you can achieve in systems in the $20-$30K range knocks on Jays door easily. I am not saying $20-30K is cheap for many, but its the cost of the Levinson reference 30 digital set from the early 90's that is a better coffee table base now. This is my prediction for Jay. He will continue to hone his preferences, realize his most enjoyable listening rarely if ever sniffs the upper ranges of his systems dynamic capabilities. He'll dabble less in esoterica and realize many unsung geniuses of practical circuits and design all around the globe. He'll then get hooked on the unrivaled satisfaction of assembling systems that absolutely kill it for way less coin. |
I’m going to attempt to clear things up for everyone with regards to my Soulution and ARC preamps. First off, comparing a tube preamp to a solid state preamp is like comparing apples to oranges. They are very different and have differences sonically due to their design. Secondly, I’m at a very high level with my system and it becomes more of system matching rather than just inserting a component. The vac monos sound amazing with the REF6SE and i was very impressed by this combo, but i also think it is the synergy between both. Thirdly, the Soulution 725 could possibly be the best solid state preamp I’ve had in here. That said, the boulder 2110 is amazing too but i haven’t owned both at once which would allow me to pick one of the two. Finally, let’s wait and see what my new preamp will bring to the table. I think a lot of you will be highly impressed by it and i am expecting the same. PS: i sold the Soulution 725 but it will be here until the end of this month It will not be part of any rotations although I did record 3 songs today so i will release those videos over the next few days. "I’m not predicting he’ll say ARC better all around than Soulution especially when he selling that now" The Soulution was sold before any of this went down and i didn’t even list it and the buyer doesn’t follow this thread. He has a system that is probably more than mine and has owned the 725 in the past. He doesn’t get caught up with this. The 725 doesn't really need acceptance by potential buyers. It has a great track record so it sells itself. Its resume is pretty full and if anyone is looking to buy a 725, i am sure they know what they are buying. Some pieces just don't need propaganda at all. |
Jay, this speaker company is local to you Best in show! Scaena Loudspeakers, High Fidelity Cables, dCS Vivaldi, Axpona 2019 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGIYuezuIPE |
I’m not predicting he’ll say ARC better all around than Soulution especially when he selling that now but with his current reference VAC amps and Wilson speakers he couldn’t have been more clear with his spontaneous quote that I pulled. The reason it stood out to me and was so easy to find is because he’s never had so dramatic a reaction, and that’s my point. In fact he’ll probably be mad at me for dredging up that quote lauding the Ref6 at Soulution expense. The only reason I did it is that Viber denied WC had said it when of course WC had with much more gusto than I’d initially implied |
I’m not missing the point. I said clearly “with that mix of gear” and WC’s preferences. ( in particular I said “at least per WC with that particular mix of gear”) His quote above from Sept 10 directly comparing ARC and Soulution, not mine. Go find even one other example where he had a stronger reaction and provide the quote |
kren I think you are missing the point of system synergy. Just because Jay preferred the Ref6SE with the VAC monos doesn't mean the Ref6SE is a better preamp. Jay told me the Soulution 725 preamp is one of the best preamps he's owned. As far as Magico (the brand) goes, I believe Jay has owned at least a half a dozen Magico speakers. He did say you had to open up your pocketbook if you own the M6's but I don't believe that was the case with other Magico models. Was it Jay who never quite embraced Magico speakers or was it you? |
That’s because you don’t want to remember anything that goes against your sonic views. To refresh your memory, WC said this less than a month ago: “Omg i just removed the 725 Soulution and inserted my arc ref6se... 😳 The arc preamp and vac amps is just WOW WOW WOW... I suspect I’m not going to bed tonight. Will it shock some people if i decided to do an all tube rig and ditch my solid state gear? Because right now, that’s what I’m feeling like doing.” I submit that this is quite literally the strongest reaction WC has ever had in 5 years to a component switch. Remember now???? sept 10, look it up. we talked about it for days. pretty hard to miss how much better WC thought the ARC was than Soulution. He said then he wanted to sell all SS. Reread the quote |
I don't recall Jay saying that ARC or VAC as tube gear was better than 725 with either mystery amp or Constellation. Often Jay likes the diversion of tubes which help him relax. I remember Jay loving the 725 for its clarity, and also loving the mystery preamp for its different, more relaxed presentation, but I hope Jay can clarify how he now feels. A SS vs Tube A/B would be of interest, more so if it is also blinded, although it will be pretty obvious which is which. The tube lovers will say that the SS has unnatural brightness in HF and lack of clarity, and the SS lovers will say that the SS is natural and lifelike and the Tubes dull with less clarity. |
It isn’t a surprise WC is ditching the Soulution preamp because when he switched from it to the ARC Ref6SE with his VAC amps the Ref6se was so much better per his comments at the time. That was a case where a much cheaper component (the Audio Research preamp) beat a much more expensive one (Soulution), at least per WC with that particular mix of gear. With both Soulution components he’s now owned, (integrated amp, preamp) he’s found lower cost competitors he much preferred. Like with Magico speakers he never quite embraced, so yeah I wouldn’t expect him to go back there either |
Jay, Before the 725 goes, maybe you can at least comment on the relative sonic qualities of it and your mystery preamp. If the character of the mystery preamp is similar to its companion mystery amp we just heard in the A/B, that would shed further light on that amp. I wish you had the time and energy to do an A/B between the two preamps. I was impressed with the 725 video you did a while ago, but that wasn't an A/B. |
Jays Audio Lab I just wanted to say thank you. I started my search for a complete change in my audio system, good but average, in 2016 when I retired. I read a lot of material and visited the RMAF twice to get the only hi audio actual listening experience I could get; very little is available locally. I found your Audiogon amplifier article in 2017 and used it as a basis for my further directed amplifier comparison. I purchased a used Pass Labs X 150 stereo amplifier because of the reviews and your love for the Pass Labs 250.8. This year I replaced it with a set of used Pass Labs X260.8 monoblocks, a great leap forward from the Pass Labs X150 amp. I have read many of your articles and only last year did I discover your very interesting YouTube videos. I enjoy your discussions about the equipment and your comparative videos. I look forward to your streamer reviews, as it is the only piece of audio equipment left to buy. I may upgrade my amplifier and preamp, PS Audio BHK PreAmplifier, in the future although I am happy with what I have now. What would you suggest as an upgrade for the PS Audio BHK PreAmplifier and Pass Labs X260.8 monoblocks that occasionally come up on the used market? Comfortably retired does not equate to high-priced new audiophile equipment. My wife wonders how I can afford high-priced used audiophile equipment. Ain't love grand? My Current system Denefrips Terminator DAC Marantz AV7703 Pre Tuner Martin Logan Expression ESL 13A Electrostatic Speakers Pass Labs 260.8 Mono Amplifiers PS Audio BHK PreAmplifier Sony Blu Ray UBP-X800 CD/Blu Ray Player SVS PB 16-Ultra Subwoofer Thanks again and keep up the good work. Your video quality and audio quality have greatly improved over the last year. |
Wow Jay, . I remember when we tried to tell you that cables make a difference. You did not believe it ...yet. Many of us gave you grief because sometimes you didn't give equipment more than a day or 2. Look at you now talking about how cables make a huge difference , talking about decay, soundscape, and "SOUL". Your last video describing the differences between the Class D amp vs the Class A amp, was very impressive. It now sounds like you have a great EAR and the capability to put into words what you hear. I am impressed . I commend you SIR, for a job Very Well Done ! |
Thank you guys. I love to see you all collaborate and give me your feedback. I do this because i love it and being able to share this with you all makes this more enjoyable. I have more tricks up my sleeve and more components coming. Notice how i am now living with most of my gear for months before i move on. I give equipment a fair shot and this is something I didn’t do before. Lesson learned and this is part of my own evolution and being able to understand audio more and more each day. I look back at myself and my own previous trials and realize the stupid mistakes i made way back when. This is a process that has made me mature far more than i ever imagined. The shootouts are icing on the cake and to be honest, although they aren’t a 100% representation of what happens in my room, they allow me to do one important thing: To allow you all into my room even though you all are far away. Doing this alone can be boring. Thank you for the support and the allowing me into your homes as well. PS: the tattoo, bald head and 20 inch arms are for looks ( like some amplifiers out there lol) Jay |
2 sets of monos, 1 preamp, one other preamp being built, and by Thanksgiving I’ll have the music server since this one got damaged. No plans of getting other speakers unless i magically run into one pair of speakers that are on my wish list. Plans to own Soulution 7 series has been abandoned (long story) so i sacrificed my 725 to get the next linestage which I’ve wanted to try. No idea when I'll release any of it. I want to focus on a few other things. The mystery amps/preamp will be used on future shootouts. I thought you and Viber already had agreed what they were?. |
In order to get us back on track: No music server for me .i just unpacked it and it was damaged... Fed ex kept it at customs for nearly 3 weeks... Ugh... Also, i believe the Soulution 725 is going bye bye. A new linestage is being built for me from a brand I've never owned before. Stay tuned for more. |
Whenever I get my (modded Voyager) amp, the comments will be posted in the existing Voyager amp thread (I touched base with Tweak1). It is polite practice to let someone who starts a thread (for whatever purpose) to stick to things relevant to the original poster. As far as parts costs for an IcePower module, I believe they do not sell the modules to the general public (1200AS). The wholesale cost per module (if anyone is interested) is around $200. Case work is not cheap and neither are good connectors, etc. I've looked into it as a friend of of friend may be able to get a limited few IcePower modules. I'd venture to guess that the cost of materials and labor to build something like the Rouge is probably around $1k. So I think that it acquited itself very well in Jay's demos (and as he pointed out the chain of components before it and the speakers had great influence in the sound that was reproduced). |
I was hoping the cheapie would win, and said so, but I knew it wouldn’t because I’ve listened to all manner of gear at both levels dozens or hundreds of times and I can hear the difference. It isn’t hard if you know what to listen for. There’s no magic bullets in the game despite what ricevs would like you to believe. There is good sounding inexpensive gear, NO DOUBT, but not inexpensive gear that beats what WC has, which was the claim of Viber and ricevs. Completely different levels of performance. Is there inexpensive gear that some listeners who may be less experienced with expensive gear of the quality WC has or may have fringe audio preferences may prefer to the gear WC has, well obviously the answer to that question is yes. Notice I am not saying all expensive gear is good. Just like experienced _____ (fill in the blank for any profession) or expensive _____ (fill in the blank for any product category), some will suck and be awful despite the experience (or the price of the audio gear). But what WC typically has and certainly has now is top notch in quality. All that said, the exercise was useful to quash the "giant killer" talk I suppose. Let's see how long it takes to resurface. |
Viber, I have written a detailed response and resume, but I'm not sure if I want to send it privately, publicly, or not at all. At this time, I will share my concluding thoughts... and thank you kren for your words. I agree with them... ********** I chose to participate openly in this challenge because I found it be an opportunity to share my listening experiences while blind. I had no trouble picking out the different scenarios and like many on this thread that I respect, nearly all of us preferred the class A and not by small margins. That you also were able to identify each is not a surprise. That you found what most of us strongly preferred as less preferable to the Rouge was even less of a surprise. My experiences of the different presentations matched with Jay's in-person experiences. I appreciate that no-one has been slamming you or the Rouge, as someone stated, it was not a fair fight. And I hope that I am presenting myself as having a certain different perspective and not attacking yours. I only ask you to contemplate one fact as you share your considerable insights and thoughts on this and in future posts: You preferred the presentation that by a margin of 50% most of us did not. |
With all due respect it is very clear from psnyders posts that he has much deeper audio assessment experience than you do, just as WC does. Or at least competence if not experience which is all that matters. You may play violin better but that’s irrelevant to assessing audio gear. I graduated with four degrees. So what? Some in my class with same education were absolute idiots. Competence illustrated by assessment is what matters here. That’s where the five year old who can consistently pick amp 2 over amp 1 is better at assessing audio and I stand by the analogy because this was a blowout case of massively mismatched competitors according to WC who was in the room |
kren0006, You ignore the fact that a 5 year old has almost no experience with any music at all, whether live unamplified or processed audio. Objectively, his hearing measures better than me, but he doesn't understand what he is hearing or the relevance of it to real music. And he doesn't understand what "better" means. You are incorrect that musical training has nothing to do with audio. Appreciating music in audio systems is about understanding both music and the sound of it in live situations. An analogy is that my taste sensations may be good, but I don't have the proper experience and education to be a wine or food connoisseur. I would need to take courses, go to cooking school, or gain a lot more real experience than I already have, in order to be qualified to be a connoisseur. So Paul, please answer my questions so we can have a more intelligent discussion. |
Viber said: "Each has advantages and drawbacks compared to the other. It is incorrect to say that one is better than the other, especially since most honest people found them close. Those who say that one blows away the other are merely hype-sters, salesmen, etc." Actually, the only advantage the Rouge had was in price. It was soundly beaten sonically in every conceivable way, according to WC in the room and several (including me and psnyder and others) who could hear it through YT. Actually, it is incorrect to say anything other than one not only is better than the other, but massively better. Actually, as to the last paragraph, it’s pretty much the opposite. "Blows away" is subjective, of course. Nobody (I don’t think) is saying the Rouge sounded like garbage (I said I was impressed by it and appreciated the shootout), only that it was far inferior to the other amp. But that’s nothing to be ashamed of. It should be for the cost delta. In its price range I suspect the Rouge is competitive and performs well. |
