Dear Halcro: That Victor DD TT is very good ( It looks similar to a Denon DP-80 but I don't know if Denon made for Victor. ) and loks fine in naked fashion.
For begin with the tests that " can " could help ( maybe the Downunder mango can suggestion works better. ) but if you think that what you heard is something of good quality performance then you IMHO have to think in a dedicated tower tonearm board.
My Technics " experiment " is exactly like your Victor only with the AT footers instead your tip toes like ones and of course with a " mango " can arm board tower!
A friend of mine has his SP-10 MK2 with tip toes like and has successfull results..
Btw, in the other TT thread ask me for pictures of the naked SP-10 version that I can't do it because my camera is out of work but now with your picture-site everything is on " understand " status about.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Halcro: Good to know it's promising even in that less than " perfect " set up.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Bpolleti: The set up is exactly as the Halcro only with different footers ( three of them. ).
The footers I'm using are a pneumatic ones by Audio Technica and you can see it in the picture " turntable 2 " in my virtual system, are the ones that were supporting the Micro Seiki RX-5000: in " picture 005 " you can see it too.
Those AT footers goes directly at the bottom SP10MK2 metal cover: no big deal.
regards and enjoy the music,
raul. |
Dear Halcro: Seems to me like you will have a lot of fun and enjoyment with this project, good!.
Btw, the Grace looks really nice.
regards and enjoy the music,
raul. |
Dear Halcro: Looks really gorgeous that whole set up, congratulations!.
I think that even that certainly you already have a good performance set up I think that you even that have " land to explore " not only on the set up fine tunning but with some " little " changes/tests here and there. These are some experiences about with my naked Technics SP-100:
- I try those tiptoes like footers in both positions and I liked a little more in up side down position ( point at the TT bottom cover.
- Than's that I found the AT pneumatic footers I made a comparison against the tiptoes ones and in my place I like the more the AT: footers.
- My arm pod was not so pretty like the ones you own but certainly works. I test here too with some tiny footers for the arm pod. I think could be interesting that you could think about, it makes a difference.
- right now I don't have mounted/on system's place the nake Technics due that I want to make some tests with my Denon's ( DP-80/75 , that are very similar in appeareance to the TT-81. ) and the Technics but with out bottom plate/cover.
This is something that you could try in the future.
A lot of fun and I think worth to try this NUDE project.
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Halcro: First I want to congratulate you because of your really " open mind "/unbiased/non-comercial attitude to decide test/try the " naked " DD TT project, second for your detailed follow-up of your project implementation through those pictures in your site and third for your great post about the " naked " quality level performance.
The " naked " project comes to my mind several years ago when I tested with my Denon DP-80 and DP-75 ( similar looks to your Victor. ) and where I had a great success against the Denon wood/MDF plinths and against two heavy ( 40kg eac one. ) and beautiful plinths made one from green marble and the other from beige Onyx ( I still have it. ). Then I try it with my SP-10MK2's and confirm the high quality performance that the approach has against same plinted TT's that I heard it.
The naked road has some " edges " where IMHO the most important is what we are looking for.
Any plinth IMHO has its own " distortions/colorations " that put it away from true neutrality/inert, that we can think there is no such " colorations " because we can't aware easyli of them does not means does not exist, we have to remember that the phono cartridge is a very sensitive ( way more sensitive that our own ears. ) microphone that " sense " and detect tiny very tiny " colorations " that the plinths have.
Your experiences only confirm the fact:
+++++ " The first thing I noticed about the TT-81 DD turntable was the distinct absence of colouration or signature sound. " +++++++
this is what is supposed/should be a TT: a neutral audio device!.
No plinth at all means one less stage ( with a plinth in reallity we have more that one stage. ) to contaminate the audio signal. Seems to me that the best plinth is no plinth at all.
Yes the naked/no-plinth way could be not as beautiful looking as those very fine plinths out there but IMHO if we are looking for Excellence in quality performance then the naked project is very very good " un-expensive " alternative.
The other advantage that like me with the naked/nude approach is how easy is to add two or three tonearms!.
I confirm my congratulations to you ( btw, thank you Nilthepill. ) because you don't thinked: " well that naked alternative that Raul speaks could be interesting but maybe not and forget it. ", instead of this you want to be sure what happen through that naked project and as my friend Jorge you have success too, good!!!
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Halcro: IMHO I think that the source always is the most important factor/subject and then each one of the links that surround the source, in the cartridge case: tonearm, phono stage, TT, cables, etc, etc
What you are experienced with your D4000III is a confirmation of the importance in the tonearm/cartridge match. Till today IMHO does not exist yet the best tonearm but the best cartridge/tonearm combination.
Of course that is not easy to find out that best combination because we need to own a lot of tonearms to test cartridges there.
Could that Empire cartridge performs better in other tonearm?, certainly yes but you have to find out: hard task.
Anyway, good that you are enjoying your system with that source.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Ct0517: Good that you are enjoying your TT plinthless set up. Chris IMHO the " merit " comes from your self that decide to tryed.
+++++ " All I can say is less distortion, very neutral sound. A big improvement. " +++++
IMHO this is all about: " less/lower distortions ", I posted several times that our each one " goal/target " ( main one ) to attain excellence level on system quality performance is trying to obtain ( at each audio link in the system ) the lower distortions we can. As distortions goes lower ( elsewhere/anywhere. ) as MUSIC takes its real " overall meaning " like that " very neutral sound " you already experienced.
Any TT plinth has its own " distortions " and unknow behavior for all of us when we go plinthless we are taking out/switch-off a " distortion place/center " where the cartridge signal was and is degrade.
+++++ " I gave the plinthless set up a try since it cost very little to experiment with " +++++
this is exactly what I posted several times in this forum on the plinthless subject: everyone can try it with almost no " money " to invest.
I think that this plinthless subject is more an each one attitude for test it.
To all the people that support DD TT plinths I always ask them: do you already tested a plinthless set up ? why don't you try it?, no one till today give an answer about and follow their " road ", fine with me.
Something that is really nice is that all the persons that already try the TT plinthless set up all reported ( just like you ) that the quality performance beats the normal TT plinth set up.
This plinthless subject is just that other ones like DD TT that a few years ago no one cares about and in those " all times " I posted that the DD alternative could and can beats the BD one or that the MM/MI alternative is more than an alternative but a " superior " analog source against the LOMC alternative or that the way to go with LOMC was and is through active high gain phono stages instead setp-up transformers or that the way to go is to playback cartridge analog source alternatives through phonolinepreamps ( integrated ) instead stand alone phono stages or the latest " electrical power system source direct connection " instead all those " electrical power conditioners " or...or....
Over the time like what you are enjoying " things " takes its right and true " perspective ".
here in my country people say: " things fall by its own " weight " ".
I hope that in the future people gives to it self the opportunity to test and hear what happen with all those " audio subjects " and decide according, in the mean time the ones that already did it will follow enjoy the greatness of those " alternatives/subjects " .
¡ Happy New Year for all of You !
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Halcro: Agree with you and IMHO the naked fashion in many ways has lower distortions. The footers here play an important role and the AT pneumatic ones works splendid. No, I'm not saying that's a must to have, I understand there are other alternatives and like almost all things in audio we have to test and compare.
I never tryed with tip toes like footers like you, maybe in the future.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R |
Dear Halcro and friends: WOW ! WOW ! and WOW !
I can't believe it. My Denon's ( DP-80 and 75. ) were on the " closet " for a lot of years that I can't remember how many, well two weeks ago I thinked: why not tested today? and that's what I made.
First I test and mounted the DP-80 and of course plinthless ( with different footers than your Victor but looks very similar. ) using the same AT pneumatic footers ( 3 ) that with my SP-10s.
First take: outperform easily the Technics one and obviously the BD TTs AS. Well I was really happy and enjoying the " new " fabolous toy when I decided to test the DP-75 ( tha's almost a DP-80. ).
Second take: please don't ask me why ( both units in perfect operation condition. ) but outperform the already great DP-80 quality performance level.
Well, that one unit outperform the other or that one audio item beats other one has nothing of extraordinary.
The main subject is what means that " outperform " and in the case of both Denon's means in one word: a totally different performance on what I experienced in my system and with any other system out there I heard it. The word accuracy it its wider meaning seems to me adequate. Both Denon's gives a new dimension to the music listening experience and I mean a NEW DIMENSION that only when you experience it could understand what I'm trying to say.
Halcro, now I understand better your excitement when you test for the first time your Victor 101.
I compart with you that excitement that i don't share before because I wnat to be absolute sure about and now I'm; absolutely amazing for say the least. DISTORTIONS ALMOST DISAPPEAR. GONE FOR EVER, at least the ones coming for a TT.
This you can see what Denon design means and where you can see that the only difference on specs between the DP-80 and DP-75 is mainly on the rumble number that in the DP-75 is a better one:
http://www.thevintageknob.org/denon-DP-80.html
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/denon/dp-75.shtml ( the brochure is a need to read. ). Both TTs have bi-directional servo with double-platter design.
Is there any single justification/reason to use these Denon babies with a plinth?, IMHO none: plinthless is the name of the game.
Halcro and friends: we are in the road!!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lewm: First I don't took the TT and decided to go naked as first option. I check both with three different plints before naked: my custom made and beautiful 40kg green marble one alond the 40kg beige onyx one and the own Denon hard wood.
Both custom made plynts were over four of my AT pneumatic footers and both " sounds " the same and outperform the Denon one.
After that I tested in naked fashion and decided that nake/nude is the way to go, differences are important it were not tiny ones.
In all cases I use it my LOMC reference cartridge and ADC Astrion, Sonus Dimension 5 and AT ML180 OCC.
I used two identical tonearms ( our prototype design. ) and two identical arm pods ( more on this latter. ) and same cartridge to phono stage wiring. I tested too with my AT 1503-3.
Obviously that I tested through my own test procedure ( that continue the same with the same recording tracks. ) as always.
No, both TT Denons are in perfect condition and as similar as they are are not the same. The measure rumble figure in the DP-75 was measured by a friend that own a DP-75 and he found out was/is: -88db at the same standards that Denon took it. Even on brochure the DP-75 has better specs than the DP-80. Other difference is that the DP-80 has higher motor's torque that means in some ways higher energy to dissipate or latent.
I use our self TT mat design that I'm using for last 2-3 years and that through my experiences with other mats is unbeatable.
Arm pod: I'm still using an Acoustic Signature one. If you take a look to my virtual system you will see where the tonearms are " seated ", well I took the whole AS arm board that is screwed at the TT plinth at the bottom. Well this was to compare against the AS ones and with the stone's plinths the tonearm were surface mount ( mine not the AT. ).
As you can see I took things seriously about or: could you think for a moment that I come here to make such statement with out real facts and real foundation?, a mistake from your part if thinked that way.
You can take a look to the MM thread and you will find that in the last times there are almost no posts from me. I took almost three weeks only in this comparison.
Maybe in the nears future I will make a better arm pods but right now is fine with me and I have no time to change.
Yes, both Denons are great and IMHO better than the SP-10s, at least in my system.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear In_shore: For years I used only DD TTs, one of the first I owned was the Pioneer PL-630 and then the Denons.
Someday I discovered Stereophile and through reading there I " learned " that the way to go was: BD TT, so I bought my first BD that was a Micro Seiki 1500 and just when I had on hand I was " impressed " by its build quality and weight I mounted and heard it and I liked.
In those old times my ignorance level was really high and obviously my system had poor performance even I was unaware what distortions really meaned. Were the times where specs on japanese electronics were " impressive " low.
After time I accustomed to the BD signature heavy weight TTs and changed to AS and Micro Seiki 5000.
All these years ( Denons and SP-10s in the closett. ) I learned and I mean really learned and my ignorance level goes lower. I think that 2-3 years ago I thought: hey why not to take a listening to one of SP10s? and that's what I did, at the same time I thought too: why not naked/plinthless? yes why not? and I did it.
The differences for the better ( IMHO ) through sevral tests and time listening the Technics convinced that I was wrong about BD TT and wrong about DD ones.
Today I still own BD TTs because between them permited me to mount 10 tonearms/cartridges at the same time and help Guillermo and I in our tonearm self design.
Weeks ago I decided to test the Denons and now I'm here happy and enjoying music as never before: yes: plinthless fashion.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lewm: TT mats are critical on any analog rig. Our blend propietary build material makes very good job and perhaps in the future could be available to the public, what stops us to do it is that the material is to expensive but obviously that that " expensive " level depends on the " rewards " when using it: we will see.
Yes, you are right about the SP10 2 and 3, things was that I did not compare it bis a bis and the last time I heard the 3 was on Steve Doobins system and even that was a good experience I can't say that the 3 performance was excellent but only a good one.
What I'm hearing through my Denon DP-75 is just outstanding, I don't have on hand a SP10MK3 but what I remember is way out of the DP-75 naken performance level.
Yes, agree with you about marble and I don't know how easy is to " excite " 40kg of marble through a Denon TT.
Btw, when I bought my Denons I remember I bought each one as stand alone TT/motor units where I can choosed between different plinths and tonearms.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Dover: No, I can't re-review not 200 but even 20 cartridges again. IMHO the ones I top rated could be stay in that way because the Denon TT contributes the less to performance degradation in the same way for the top and lesser one cartridges, of course that could be one or two " surprises " with the lesser cartridge but I don't thing so in that way.
What is clear to me is that every time distorion system goes lower each one audio item system link quality performance goes higher and shows additional " things " that were hiden through those now lower distortions.
As I said it several times: differences on system quality performance level depends mainly on distortion levels on each system. IMHO the name of the game in our beloved high end audio world are: distortions distortion levels and distortion level means accuracy levels.
I always look for neutrality that for me means: accuracy and low low distortions ( every kind. ).
Many of us are in love with our each system distortions till step by step and time to time we are aware of those distortions and when we improve/lower those distortions then we fall/take in count that what we was hearing ( higher distortions ) was way wrong even that we liked.
Normally we are aware of distortions when those distortions goes lower. If nothing change in our systems we can't or is almost imposible to be aware of those distortions other than comparing it to other systems.
I discussed several times with other Agoners about distortions and some of these persons give me answers like this : " if those are distortions so be it because that's the way I liked ".
My system as all other audio systems has its own distortions but I can say that today the distortions in my system are really low and this fact makes a difference for the better not easy to imagine and understand it only when you heard/hear it.
Unfortunately the AHEE accustomed to almost all of us to hear high distortions through our systems and those distortions high levels are part inherent on our each one audio system but IMHO we need to improve about asking: hey is there something wrong in my system? where? why? how can I improve over? and all these is a hard exercise that needs certain knowledge level to achieve new system quality performance targets. I continue on this very well rewarded system improves quest.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear friends: What are in common between these TTs other that are TTs: Denon DP-80/75, Garrads, Kenwood Lo70, Technics SP10s, Sota ones, SME 20s, Michel, Roksans, VPIs, Project, Oracle, Exclusive, Linn, etc, etc, ?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Aigenga: What a coincidence. That's exactly the way I made my very first attempt to " nude " my both Denons in its marble and onyx weighty plints and the way I tested last weeks where the motors were seated onsmall tiptoes in the stone plinths.
Lewm that's the way I give you an advise several months ago for you can chech your Denon and Technics with your customs plinths, where the plints in reality function as a whole arm boards.
Thank's for the pictures.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Hiho: Maybe I'm a to " slow " here to understand your post. What do you mean with " take the motor out " when the motor is integral part of the bearing/platter?, maybe I can take out all the TT inside electronics but I can't understand the other way around: could you explain me?: thnak's.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Hiho: Now I understand and yes that's an option.
Now, I named from the first time Naked/nude because for me that was: naked/nude. I can't remember in no where something similar.
The subject is ( mainly ) that in what we name naked/nude fashion the quality performance is way better against other top TT ( BD or DD ) that came with plinth or what we are accustomed to named plinths.
Anyway, I take your point: thank's.
Regrads and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Aigenga: Congratulations and welcome to the CLUB!
++++ " As far as plinth/no plinth, Lew and I just exchanged posts on Vinyl Asylum and he easily stated that bad plinths cause problems but that good plinths can be a benefit. My opinion is that good plinths sound better than bad plinths but at least in the case of good DD tables no plinth is even better. " +++++
Lewm is a very good friend and I respect him a lot, problem is that on that subject he is only speculating because he never gave/gives the opportunity to hear/test the DD non-plinth/nude alternative so he really can't know and can't affirm nothing about but only speculate against people like us that we know because we have the first hand experiences " before and after " the nude road.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Aigenga: A coincidence with your latest tweck: years ago I made it the same with my Denon's DP75/DP80, even I did it with both Denon platters ( the down side. ). I used sorbothane and works great I did it too with the MS RX5000 platter with good success too.
Now, I posted somewhere ( not in this thread. ) that I used a damping fluid/paint that was used several years ago to damp internally speakers ( it apply as a paint. In my speakers I think I gave it like 2-3 layers of that " paint " and works wonderful. ). Well I used with the Denonn's motoer covers to damp it and works really good too.
One " advantage " in the Denons is that that motor cover is not made it of one piece but three different ones and in some way when these parts were atached together trhough screws it damps in some way each to the other vibrations or at least change the frequency resonance and intrude the less on the final performance.
The other experience I had and have with this very similar Denon/Victor is that " still points "/metal like footers does not damp almost nothing and at least in my set up the pneumatic AT footers are way better.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Aigenga: Well the blend material I used only sees and apply as a white paint but certainly it is not a paint. I can't remember its industrial name and I don't know if even still in the market, what I know is that works great.
I respect your opinion/take on the cones but as is possible to drain some TT vibrations in the same manner transmit vibrations coming from the granite that's a resonant material, yes is heavy but to resonant. Btw, I combined the pneumatic footers with the metal cones as you can read it in my virtual system:
+++++ " Both TT's seats over three Audio Technica AT-616 neumatic suspension isolators with inverted Tip Toes ( position ) on top of these AT isolators.
Anyway, you have the whole idea.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Audpulse: Good to hear it.
Even that in many ways my Denons are near the Victor designs and I could think that performs " similar " I just bought ( ebay. ) a Victor QL-7 TT ( mint condition. ).
I did it not because the TT but because the Victor tonearm ( that I want to try it. ) that happens that in this TT model is the Victor high-end 5045 ( similar to the 7045 . ) that Victor marketed as a separate/stand alone tonearm.
The last time I saw a 7045 tonearm was over 750.00 and I paid for the Victor TT/5045 400.00!!!! and that TT comes with a " especial " TT71 version that through its specs/numbers even or surpass the TT101 as is with the S/N ratio that in the QL7 is 78db against the 75db in the TT101. Speed deviation figure is the same as the drift characteristic and in theory use the same platter:
http://www.thevintageknob.org/jvc-QL-7.html
This measures does not surprise me because something similar happened in the Denons where the top DP-80 measures 78db and its " little " brother DP-75 has an spec: 80dbs.
I think I was and am lucky to found out this Victor combo at that price in mint condition, the seller told me that he thought the unit is new!
Years ago, happened something similar: I was looking for a FR FR-64 and suddenly I saw it on ebay as part of a Luxman PD-310 TT that I was unaware how good was it ( Now I know it is very good BD TT. ), that way I bought the FR tonearm I was looking for where I had a high reward through the Luxman TT.
I don't know where but I think I have a little amount of that " magic " blended paint that as you I will use it in the QL7.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Halcro: That " circular aluminum frame " you are talking remember me what I did it with my Denons: instead that " circular aluminum frame where drop the Victor " my frames were from natural marble that was seated on the AT pneumatic footers and the Denons goes freely supported by three tiny tiptoes like ( I tested metal and non-metal materials here. ) that goes under the Denon/Victor circular metal top frame ( where comes the the TT controls/switchs.
This is a very tiny/thin surface for the tiptoes can stay in equilibrum but is more easy this set up that what we can think.
I still have those beautiful frames and maybe in the near future ( waiting for my Victor. ) I could try it again and see what happen.
Btw, those frames work as a giant/heavy/non-resonant( 40kg. ) arm board.
Well, something a little different but I remember it works very good too.
regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Btw, I really sorry the " accident " with your Phonolinepreamp and I mean it.
As you know I had my system down for almost three months and is an anguish that are hard to express/say.
Fortunately you have a domestic manufacturer, good lucl about.
R. |
Dear Banquo363/Halcro: That's exactly what I did several years ago with my Denon's, I posted here and in the past in other threads.
Difference was that I used natural marble and natural onyx stones ( beautiful look for say the least. ) all that supported for the AT 616 pneumatic footers. I still have those stone bases but are so big that I have no space to use it again with my Victor 71/Denon 80/75. Yes, it works fine.
When I have some time I will test it again against the nude one in real time.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lewm. That's a similar advise I gave to you time ago for your DP-80, remember?
I did it for my Denons DP-75/80, differences with the pictured ones were:
instead of metal " plinth " I used a 40Kg base of green marble and the other in beige Onyx ( both beautifull stones. ).The stone bases were seated on the pneumatic AT-616 and the stone base was used as tonearm board too ( no stand alone arm bases. ).
Now the Denon's were seated, through the TT top ring, in three very small delrin tip-toes like a top the stone bases.
IMHO damping is very important for this kind of set up and that's why I don't use it metal tip toes but delrin ones and pneumatic footers that were the set up foundation.
Works and looks amazing!
Maybe in the future I can try again because I have the marble/onyx bases, beautiful ones.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
