Picking an amplifier

Thanks for that link on the McCormack.  Yes, I thought that the McCormack might have the best sound quality.  I think at this point, you will need to decide what kind of sonic signature you want.  The McCormack will have a very sweet and engaging sound.  However, the Outlaw will still have more power supply and be able to hit the bass much harder - there would be a lot more impact and attack in the sound with the Outlaw (like "punch you in the chest" kind of sound).

On the Bryston, yeah some of their amps are heavy weights.  The 9B ST you mentions only comes in at 59 lbs. (similar to Parasound).  I heard a set of original Gen 1 7B monoblocks once.  The sound was okay, but it was somewhat on the dull sounding side.  I also heard a Gen 3 Bryston.  I think it was a 2B SST model.  It was definitely faster/brighter with a lot of detail and attack, but the amp just did not sound engaging.  It did not reach out and grab you.  I tended to lose interest.  Some people love the Brystons.

I had an original Sunfire Cinema Grand 5-channel amp a long time ago.  It was a significant step up when I was first getting into home theater.  However, over time, I discovered it was somewhat sterile sounding.  I upgraded to a B&K Reference 200.5, which was a HUGE improvement in sound - strength, detail and warmth.  The amp just was really engaging and exciting.  However, in the end, the B&K turned out to be too warm for my tastes, which caused me to move onto more neutral amplifiers.

@2psyop - totally agree.

Generally, neutral means sound without additional coloration.  Warm can add a rich/lush/laid-back/smeared character.  Cold can be too fast/bright/harsh.  Neutral is more like "accurate".  However, "sterile" means it could be too clean and not any bite/grittiness and also it can mean dull / uninteresting - the sound is just not engaging.

Your Eric Clapton video is the best recording out of all, but I love Johny Cash as well.

Jazz is my primary listening when I'm working or at the computer.  I love Melody Gardot.  If you like jazz, get her Live At the Olympia bluray.  It is the absolute best recording of her (as well as the best jazz live recording I have heard).  The Youtube videos do not compare at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb3lTVL7qM8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NrNI9Qr-KE

I also love Diana Krall, Lyn Stanley, Jane Monheit.  If I'm not listening to jazz, I'm actually listening to metal. lol.

I only have the bluray, but I'm sure the DVD sounds great as well (if that's the only media you can use).

I hear you.  It's difficult to get a really good 5-channel amp for under $1,000.  Hard to get the best of both worlds (for what you want).

The Parasound A23 is a fine choice and would have the sound quality and impact you are looking for.  It's okay to mix manufacturers, but keep in mind that the sonic signature is going to be different.  I don't know the sound of NAD, but I have read it's warm.  The Parasound is going to be slightly on the warm side, but still very detailed.  You might have less resolution on the center channel if you use the NAD.  Also, when sounds pan across the screen, the difference in sonic signature between left/center/right speakers could be noticeable.  I don't know how critical home theater is for you.

Ah, you could check out Diana Krall's latest album "Turn Up the Quiet".  It's one of the most excellently recorded albums I have heard (even on CD).  There's always Norah Jones.  Michael Buble?

If you can do hi-res music, these artist are available at HDTracks also.

@kalali - I couldn't find the Krell amp you're talking about.  However, for $1600, you are probably looking at the older KAV stuff from the late 90's.  This is the older D'Agostino stuff and was voiced warm.  It also did not have the detail and attack that the 2002+ generation did.

@shalmaneser - Can you tell us what your source equipment is?  Preamp/processor, CD player?  This may help us guide an amp.  The Anthem is a very nice amp, but it is going to be very fast and high resolution.  It would be well matched to a warmer preamp/processor, such as Marantz or NAD.  You can't go wrong with the Parasound A23 amp, but it will be more forgiving if you have a fast/bright sounding preamp/processor.

I would say there definitely is a difference between DVD and bluray.  On DVD stuff, I can definitely hear the audio is grainy and dirty compared to bluray.  However, your equipment may or may not have enough resolution to reveal this difference.

Wow, that Sony DSP-EP9ES is a really interesting device.  It's also really old and doesn't even support DTS (which is a major limitation in your ability to use media).

I know you want to keep it until it dies, but at this point I would highly recommend you dump it anyways.  Based on your budget, I would say to get the best AVR (audio/video receiver) that you could buy.  It would solve your problem for an amplifier and also give you much better capability to handle current formats.  You can search for "receiver" in audiogon.  Here are a few choices:

Anthem MRX-710 $1,000 - supports all latest bluray audio formats (Dolby True HD / DTS-HD MA).  Sound quality very good for home theater with high detail.

Marantz SR6011 $999 - supports all latest bluray audio formats.  Voiced to be on the warm side.  Probably better for music if you like the warm sonic signature.

Denon AVR-5803 $798 - this is a best of a receiver at 70lbs!  And will have much better sound quality than the above 2 items.  Bigger power supply, better amp boards.  But it is older and does not support HDMI or bluray audio.  It will do Dolby Digital / DTS from COAX digital input.  It will likely sound better than the above two options.

----

I would also recommend that you get a very low cost bluray player as a transport and use either HDMI or COAX digital for audio.  Such as Sony BDP-S1700 for $59 from Crutchfield.  If you choose the Denon receiver above, you can use the COAX digital output when playing anything.  The Sony bluray will automatically downconvert bluray audio to normal Dolby Digital / DTS.  This is still SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER than regular compressed DVD audio.  I recommend you get the Blue Jeans Cable Beldon 1694A COAX digital cable at 6 feet for $20.  It's the best for the money.

Let me know your thoughts.

Heyo, these are all just ideas.  You can always say "I don't want to do that", and that is totally okay.

If you're looking for well produced recordings of live music, the "Hall & Oates: Live at the Troubadour" concert in bluray is very excellently recorded and produced.  It does use the center channel to add some fill to the concert sound, but it does it very well and it's seamless.  It also uses the surround channels to add "audience ambience" the experience.

It looks like the Sonance was made by ATI for Sonance company.  The older ATI amps tended to be very strong muscle in the bass, but tended to be somewhat bright.  I have also heard that you need to turn on the volume pretty high before you get the dynamics.  My gut feeling is that the Sonance will not be as good as the Outlaw in sound quality.

Quick question.  You said you are connecting from a computer using digital optical cable.  Are you using the toslink output from the computer motherboard?  Or are you using a toslink output on a soundcard?  If it's a soundcard, what is the exact brand/model of the soundcard?  Also, what operating system are you running?  (i.e. Windows 7, Linus, Mac OS 10).

Neutral amp to a warm speaker will obviously be somewhat warm.

Warm amp to neutral speaker will be the same.

Warm amp to warm speaker will indeed cause an even more warm sound.

Different pieces of equipment can compensate for each other (like pairing a bright/cold preamp with a warm amplifier).  With a warm preamp you can start to lose resolution in the sound waveforms.  It is important to know that once you start losing resolution, you can never get it back.  For example, if you have a very warm preamp, putting a high-resolution amplifier and speakers will not "magically" bring back the resolution in the original waveform.

@shalmaneser – Thanks for responding with all that detail!  If you want to stay with using your computer, that’s totally find.  I can respect that.  Though, I will say that I have been there with you.  Many years ago, I used to run an HTPC for all my audio/video processing, with custom modified video cards using BNC RBGHV outputs and specialized sound cards.  I have then moved on to dedicated components, which just worked so much better.

That being said, I have experience with what you are doing.  I will say that the optical outputs on these motherboards are really poor.  The reason is lack of good digital clock and lack of good local power supply filtering.  Also, the optical interface is lacking when compared to digital coax.  I would highly recommend getting a good sound card with spdif output.  Since you are running Windows 10, the only one I can see that supports Windows 10 drivers is the Xonar Essence ST / STX / STX II.  Any one of these will work.  They all have two crystal clocks that are based on the two primary audio sampling rates (which are 44.1/88.2/176.4 or 48/96/192).  I think I read the older ST PCI card had better digital clock section but they would require an open “PCI” slot.  The STX models are the newer PCIE cards.  These are going on ebay for $50-90.  Then get that 6 foot Blue Jean Beldon COAX cable.  I’ve tested the motherboard optical outputs and they just sound weak in comparison.  The idea that “it’s just data until it hits the DAC” is not an accurate statement here.  The VLC player should have a configuration that allows you to send “spdif passthrough” on the digital spdif output of the sound card (even for AC3 and DTS movie bitstreams).

At this point, I think you will need to decide if you are wanting to keep your Sony processor and get an amplifier, or look for a really high-end receiver.  Just keep in mind that Sony is definitely a limiting factor because it won’t even do DTS (which is the format that is most used nowadays).  The Bluray DTS-MA HD will be automatically downconverted to normal oldschool DTS before it is sent out on the spdif digital output.  The only digital connection that supports hi-res bluray is HDMI.  You could get a video card with HDMI output and run it through a new receiver with HDMI inputs if you wanted to truly decode hi-res bluray audio.  Though, it may not sound better unless the receiver was up to par.

Yeah, you would think that COAX and optical should sound exactly the same.  Based on electrical engineer point of view, it should be the same and it's just data.  But from an audiophile listening standpoint, the COAX will just sound better.  The optical can get very good if you use a high end glass fiber cable such as Lifatec or Wire World Supernova, but the COAX will just sound better in the end.  The COAX also has a more natural ambience to the sound.  You can read up on it if you wish.

The Anthem 5/50 amps are nice choices.  The MCA 50 has a power supply that is 50% larger than the MCA 5.  The MCA-50 has 150,000uf capacitance, where the MCA-5 has 100,000uf.  This means the MCA-50 may be a more refined sound and it will also have a bit more muscle for the bass/midbass (even at lower volumes!).  Obviously, the MCA-50 costs more.  The Anthem amps will be a lot cleaner/faster/detailed sounding than the NAD, and probably more power/muscle in the bass.

Okay, I remember the reasoning behind why the PCI version of the Xonar Essence card (ST version) was better.  It had to do with the PCI bus clock speed, which is 33Mhz.  For audio data, you really don't need a super fast bus.  The PCIE bus clock speed is in the gigaherz range (2.5Ghz / 5.0Ghz / 8.0Ghz).  I think this created much more problems for jitter in the data.  The 33Mhz PCI interface just worked better and was more forgiving for sending audio bitstream data.

Ah you posted almost at the same time.  A while back I did some research on toslink cables.  The Audioquest diamond is extremely expensive.  I don't know if it is really worth it.  lol.  Looking at the other top toslink cables I found:

Lifatec - 470 Audio Data Silflex Glass Fiber Optic strands polished ends.  3 foot cable $81

Wire World Supernova 7 - 338 strands Borosilicate Glass polished ends.  1 meter cable $200.

Audioquest Diamond - 280 Narrow-Aperture Quartz (Fused-Silica) Fibers polished ends.  0.75 meter cable $499.

From my research, the Lifatec was the absolute best cable for the money, and probably compared to higher priced cables.  Lifatec makes fiberoptic cables for medical grade devices.  The Wire World was the only other one I would have considered as the Audioquest is just insanely expensive.

Wow, that last link is some interesting stuff!  I'm glad to have my statements substantiated.  A couple quotes from that page that are interesting:

"the TOSLINK interface of red led is not fast enough"

"That square directly from Toslink receiver is bad bad bad. It is a miracle the DAC reads and understands this crap."

"TWEAKING OF A CD PLAYER to make it a killer transport...Changing the sockets from RCA to BNC or much better to XLR on both the transport and the DAC while changing the resistor from 75 Ohms to 110. "

I have also read feedback that BNC coax is highly superior to RCA coax.  That's a given.  However, many of our equipment is limited by RCA only connections. lol.  I have also read from a posting that the XLR AES/ABU interface is still not as good as a proper BNC COAX.  That was based on listening tests and well as some technical justification.  I can't remember what exactly they said.

It's proven that there are differences in digital COAX cable.  The solid-core silver or silver-plated cables are highly superior because the silver is able to charge/discharge much faster than just copper and it allows better accuracy in the extremely high speed digital square waveforms.  One cable I have heard is excellent is the DH Labs Silver Sonic D-750, but at $200 or so for a 2-meter cable, it can be above your budget.  I always recommend the Blue Jean Cable Beldon 1694A because it's an excellent digital cable for the money (much better than others if you don't want to spend much).  It's documented that 1.5 meter is the minimum/best length because shorter cables will cause signal reflections back to the transmitter and distort the waveforms.  I generally recommend 6 feet (which I use).

That is not the Xonar card I was recommending.  The Xonar "DS" model is a 7.1 audio gaming card.  It does have an spdif output, but you will have to do a mod to wire it into an RCA output, like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7CLneUAnRw

By the way, this guy is a total amateur with regards to soldering.  I'm cringing just watching him do those solder points! ack.  The "DS" model does not have the two crystal clocks for the proper audio sampling right timing. It can be used, but the Xonar Essence "ST" model is highly superior.

It does not look like there are any Xonar Essence "ST" cards on ebay right now, but they do come up for sale fairly often (there have been 3 sold in the last month).

There are some "STX" PCIE cards available right now on ebay, such as this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ASUS-Xonar-Essence-STX-/253196117652?epid=77162604&hash=item3af3aa2694:g:rokAAOSw6HJZ2RY-

---

Take a look at the details on this page:

https://www.asus.com/Sound-Cards/Essence_STX_II_71/

This is the newest version of the card, the "STX II".  It appears that it uses TCXO clocks, which are highly superior to the normal crystal clocks in the older ST/STX versions.  But it's a new product and it's going for about $250, such as this:

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132072&cm_re=sound_card-_-29-132-072-_-Product

Hope all this info helps.