Playing CDs sounds better than Qobuz — dammit

@kletter1mann 

If you have a “seriously high end system” and you are still using a Node 2i, you should rethink that part of your chain.

Oz

@soix 

Are you using AirPlay to stream Qobuz?

@yage No, no AirPlay. 

@kletter1mann Well, I upgraded the Lightening cable from the Apple Camera Adapter and it improved the sound significantly so thought I was ok until I brought my CD transport up from my big rig.  I think it’s pretty clear from you and others I need to go with a hardwired, dedicated streamer so now just need to decide which one.  I’m happy with my DAC so I’m just looking for a pure streamer.  Thanks for the feedback. 

I suppose that any file or ripped is impossible to reach the quality of the sound of Esoteric k01 or k03 Xd. 

@oldschool1948 ​​​​​@jafant ​​​​​​agree with both of you.

I go back and forth with streaming from Tidal MQA and listening to stored content on my Innuos Zenith3+Phoenix USB and I’m still feeling like my stored content sounds better (ever so slightly deeper, and fuller/dynamic).

I’ve been downloading all that I can HiRes off Bandcamp and ripping tons of CD’s because of it.

My SU-R1000 MC Phono Stage and DSP is otherworldly and makes me just laugh spinning vinyl (Ortofon MC Blue on my Teac TT XLR out).

Source is always the key, and everything falls after.

System:

Innuos Zenith 3/Phoenix USB (cat8)

Musetec MH-D005

Technics SU-R1000

Parasound JC5 (soon to be JC1+ Mono’s!!!)

JBL L100 75’s

Dual KEF 12b Kubes

Teac TN-5BB TT

@soix Well, I upgraded the Lightening cable from the Apple Camera Adapter and it improved the sound significantly so thought I was ok until I brought my CD transport up from my big rig.  I think it’s pretty clear from you and others I need to go with a hardwired, dedicated streamer so now just need to decide which one.  I’m happy with my DAC so I’m just looking for a pure streamer.  Thanks for the feedback.

FWIW, I got a Lumin u1 Mini on its way right now.  Bye bye Node 2i.  Seems like a good balance of features, performance and $$$.  And  no annoying onboard DAC.  Good luck!

@kletter1mann I’d be interested in your findings in the performance differences between the Lumin and Node.  Lumin is on my radar too. 

Streaming is probably the first time I started looking at all what some call snake oil. After I put the Sonore Rendu and decoupled the network from the system and added a really good DAC wow.   There is noise out there. I have not dove into the $2000 usb and hdmi (for I2S) cables as I really have never noticed big things there. But streaming both from streaming service and ripped CDs and SACDs is absolutely amazing with an incredibly low noise floor. Just super clean music.  And so much more fun jumping around to different music with just your finger. Done right streaming is just as good as discs. 

Hi, I use Wolf Audio and couldn’t be happier, it is linked to my T+A DAC 8 which is is a fabulous dual channel DAC. Check them out, link below.

@soix 

Have you upgraded your streamer yet? If you did, which one did you end up going with? You should highly consider Naim or Linn streamers. Aurender, Lumin, T&A, EMM Labs, Playback Design also make great sounding streamers / DAC. 

Lost me at dongle....

@dilatante Thanks for asking.  I ended up getting an iFi Zen Stream with their iPowerX power supply and it provided a huge improvement.  If I upgrade from the Zen it’ll likely be to an Innuos Zen so I can load my CDs that aren’t available to stream into it, and I like their Sense app that gets great reviews for both sound quality and usability. 

I have an Aurender CD/Ripper/music server/Streamer, a very good CD Transport and a Audio Research DAC 9 DAC.

Since I have lots of CD's it made sense for me to rip my Cds to the server's hard drive so I didn't have to pay to hear music streamed that I already owned.  A few days (or pay your kids to do it) ripping and you are done.  Any new CDs get ripped immediately.

So, in every case, when I listen to music on my Analog system, it is always, and I do mean always better.  However, my digital setup is quite nice indeed.  So, I listen to music that I ripped to the server and it is quite nice.

When I listen to Quoboz (spelling?) it sounds the same actually.  However, when I play the actual CD on my transport, it always sound better (not much but better) that the server/streamer.

So, my order of quality (on my system) is 

1. Analog system (really opens up the sound

2.  CD transport to DAC

3.  Streamer/music server, pretty much tied.

I know, I know, people will say that digital is digital and ripping bit perfect should sound the same no matter what.  That is not accurate in my case.

They are all (except for the analog system) going through the same DAC so no variation there.  They are all using the same type and length cable, so no variation there.

enjoy

@soix 

Is the iFi Zen Stream going to the same DAC as when you were using your iPad to stream Qobuz to? Did you use the same USB cable with the iFi and the iPad to the same DAC? I have no doubt the iFi Zen Steeam with their iPower X power supply would sound better than using your iPad going to the same DAC and it should.

@minorl

Did you use FLAC to rip all your CD collections? Depending on the music server you have the CD ripped files stored in, a high quality server and CD ripper should yield identical performance if not better than playing the actual physical CD disc with the CD transport going to the same DAC. And it looks like you have a good quality Aurender music server/streamer/CD transport all-in-one unit, and I’m surprised that playing the actual CD physical disc in the same transport unit as the CD ripper/music server/storage/streamer going to the same DAC delivers better sound.

Is the iFi Zen Stream going to the same DAC as when you were using your iPad to stream Qobuz to? Did you use the same USB cable with the iFi and the iPad to the same DAC?

@dilatante Yes and yes.  

@dilatante 

Yes, I use FLAC to rip all my CDs.  However, I probably wasn't clear.  My Aurender unit does not play CDs, it only rips to the internal hard drive, or to an external NAS, and plays from it or streams.  My CD Transport unit is a very nice Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD unit.   Which I use as a transport only into my Audio Research DAC 9 via optical.

The Aurender goes to the DAC 9 via USB.

The Aurender is suppose to rip bit perfect.  But, people say digital is digital or amps are amps, but.... not really.

Also, by-the-way, Pioneer Elite BDP-09 and DV-09 units are built like tanks.  Seriously overbuilt and I've compared them to many, many other transports, most extremely high end and well known and the BDP-09 and also the DV-09 are right up there as transports go.

People replaced them because they were using them as DVD players or Blue Ray players and although quite nice, they loaded a little slowly and upgrading their home theater units with the latest and greatest.  But, for music only and as a transport only, wow!

enjoy

I did the switch from a Node 130 w/ upgraded power supply (which in itself was a great improvement) to a Lumin U1 w/ X1 power supply, and it's night and day improvement in every way. As it should be for the price difference. Better bass, sound stage, definition, detail, etc. 

Personally, I find playing local FLAC vs the identical song on Qobuz does reveal slight differences. But neither are better or worse. Local files sound cleaner, more defined, and more detailed by a slight margin. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it's always more enjoyable. And even then, the differences are splitting hairs with this level of streamer. 

@minorl

Ahh…..gotcha. I wouldn’t think Aurender makes CD transport. Bits or digital audio signals are all different, they are not the same. Say if you have two different sources or using two different streamers or music servers going into the same DAC they would sound different although you’re using exact same DAC. Those zeros and ones (binary) are not the same.

In regards to your older Pioneer Elite bluray player used as a CD transport to play Redbook CD, I never had any hands on experience with any Pioneer Elite bluray player or universal disc player. But say just in case if your old Pioneer bluray player dies on you or stop working due to age, you should consider buying a used Oppo 103/105 or 203 universal bluray disc player and use it as a CD transport. Oppo makes great disc transport for very affordable price. I had been using my Oppo 105 as a disc transport going to a separate DAC until I bought a used Cary Audio CD 306 SACD player / DAC (professional edition) 4 yrs ago. The Oppo when used as a disc transport it performs very well, reliable and sounded very good when connected to a high end outboard DAC with a high quality high end digital cable and power cables and good isolation on the Oppo. But my Cary CD 306 SACD player (professional edition) is on another level as its original MSRP was almost 8 times as much as the original MSRP of the Oppo 105 ($1200). The Cary CD 306 SACD player (professional edition) original retail was $8k when it was first introduced back in 2008. Now I run the XLR analog out of my Cary 306 SACD player / DAC to my preamp and use the Oppo 105 strictly for bluray movie and streamed Netflix movie playbacks as well as occasional DVD-Audio high resolution audio music playback and is connected via HDMI to my Classe SSP 800 preamp processor. The Oppo is excellent when used for bluray movie playbacks via HDMI out, even those streamed Netflix movies look very good on the Oppo 105.

Or alternatively for playing CD & SACD and if you’re willing to pay more you should look for a used discontinued Cary Audio CD 306 SACD player / DAC (professional edition) or the non professional edition, the professional edition sounds better but it isn’t like a night and day difference but it is audible and the pro edition is noticeably better. This is an older CD/SACD player / DAC combo, it was first introduced in around 2006/2008 and was discontinued around 2015/2016. These players (both pro and non pro editions) sounded fantastic highly musical very analog like very smooth yet highly resolving but it’s hard to find one in used markets. A used one is probably going for around $2500 to $3500 in used markets if you can find one. This is a statement flagship CD/SACD player from Cary Audio and Cary doesn’t make CD/SACD player anymore. These Cary 306 can be used as a standalone DAC as it has digital audio inputs on the back : AES/EBU, coax digital spdif, optical digital (Toslink). This player is heavy weighing in around 45 pounds and is very well built and designed. it was built like a tank.

Thanks for the information.

The DV-09, BDP-09 are hidden gems.  They sound good as CD players but make outstanding transports and are stupidly inexpensive because most people were/are using them at DVD or blue ray players and not CD transports.  So they don't know or care.

As an Electrical Engineer I can tell you they are very much over built.  As I've mentioned, I've compared quite a lot of CD players to be used as transports (way more that I want to admit) and these two provide a wow factor.  I'll keep my eyes open for the ones you recommended also.

Thanks,

enjoy

For those here discussing old cd players, Ive got a 23 year old Toshiba SD9200N DVD/cd unit. Dont know much about it, but it was $2k back then and must weigh over 20 lbs. No remote. Can only use cd player and bypass its dac through a Geshelli J2 dac. So I guess Im just using it as a transport. 

Anyone know if a new "transport" would make any SQ improvement?

Must admit cds sound better than most HiRez Qobuz  through etherneted Node 2i using J2 dac too.

Lps SQ still better and high quality lp pressings are the BEST in my rig.

If you upgrade your streamer to something like Innuos, Lumin, Aurender, etc. you’ll get a big improvement in performance.  I’d start there.  Just my $0.02 FWIW. 

Are you sure the difference isn't just the DAC inside of the CD player vs. whatever DAC you use for streaming? 

I have a Primare CD32 that I connect to a Topping D90SE DAC via toslink because I think the Topping DAC is better than whatever is in the CD32. I also connect my Laptop directly to the Topping D90SE via USB and output the sound to the same amp and headphones. 

This way, I'm really doing a direct comparison between what is essentially a CD transport, and Qobuz. And honestly, the difference is so small I can't tell if it's just placebo. I feel like CD is maybe slightly more dynamic and has more bass, but that could be just wishful thinking, because I'm talking a like 1-2% difference.

@maynardewm Your computer is significantly compromising your streaming performance due to noise, etc.  I’d highly recommend at some point you at least try a dedicated streamer to see how much better Qobuz can sound.  Just my $0.02 FWIW. 

@soix significantly? I have never heard or experienced any "noise" using a MacBook connected to a DAC to play music or in music production connected to audio interfaces when I operated a recording studio. Like I said, there’s maybe, MAYBE a difference in sound quality that is almost imperceptible between a high end CD player connected to the same DAC as a MacBook, but there certainly isn’t any "noise" that I can hear at least. The DAC is receiving data from the laptop, not audio. I’m not sure how 1s and 0s could be made noisy.

@soix

+1

Noise in audio is something you have to learn to hear. Decades ago it ceased to be hiss or anything you point to, but it is the noise floor. It is obvious indirectly in not having a dead quiet background that you can fall into. It can be very bad and cause fatigue while listening. Your eardrums are bombarded by it, but without practice you will not hear it.

@Maynardewm Both my Node 2i and cd player run through the same J2 Geshelli dac which has many good reviews putting up againest dacs 3 x its price $250.00.

I do like analog sound so Ill probably go with R2R dac down the road. 

Ive read many do big upgrades to dacs while still using their Nodes.

Yes, Im sure a streamer 3x cost of Node would be an improvement.

3x the cost of the node is still not a terribly expensive piece of gear in this hobby. But well worth the cost. I went from a Node to a Lumin and was delighted.

As above, another +vote for Pioneer Elite BDP-09. And playing CD/SACD discs.

Happy Listening!

Another +vote for Esoteric CD/SACD players.

Happy Listening!