Viridian - the point is that if you cannot measure anything, then your mind may be playing trick on you or you have not gotten to the root-cause of the sonic change. At least if there are measurements that coincide with sonic changes, then theories as to why the changes happen are more feasible. It provides some basis for explanation.
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I suppose it would be totally out of bounds at this point to say that I have gone beyond AC power cords, and found that even in straight flat DC power, I can hear differences in the types of chemical compositions of the batteries being used. Not only does the wire matter, but whether there is a Ni-Cad, Lead Acid, Alkaline, or whatever kind of battery being used. I use DC power for most of my system, and have experimented with different battery types, and believe me, they are audibly different. So, is 12v simply 12v, or is there a difference? Science is to be used to explain why things happen, not to be used to say that they can't happen because the scientist can't measure them. A real scientist would expand his study and abilities to find out why there is a sonic difference, and not stand on previous ideas that cannot explain the phenomenon. Science is learning, not the refusal to learn. |
Psychic powers do not equal--nor have anything to do with--mind reading. If my mother read you the cards you'd be surprised. I, on the other hand, don't have that specific gift. I can sense the present and my surroundings very well...sometimes "too well". And yes, power cords have an effect. Whether you can notice it or not depends on your hearing and your system. I hold the view that as power delivery/noise control improves, expensive power cords are not needed. They could actually be deleterious by acting as filters and limiting extension. |
There has long been "discussion" about whether psychic (mind reading) powers exist. Many experiments have been done using valid statistical methods to see if a subject is doing better than guessing about things like a selected playing card. Results are inconclusive. However, if one scientist could find the MECHANISM for psychic power, perhaps some kind of electrical wave traveling between people's brains, all the sceptics would be converted. So too about power cords. The reason to look for the electrical characteristics responsible for sonic characteristics is to fix the problem. Thousand dollar power cords may not the the best solution. Of course the 115VAC power lines also carry some HF modulation...simple table radios often use their power cord as the FM antenna. It's doubtful that any such HF would get through the power transformer impedance, and if it did it would be shunted to ground by the power supply capacitors. What's the impedance of 20,000 mfd at 20KC? Ziltch. If this isn't enough, put some ferrite beads on the power input wires. If your digital electronics GENERATES noise that propogates through shared power lines to other components you need a better digital electronics design. Fix the problem at the source. (Frankly, if I were digital noise I would travel by the signal interconnections). What is a "closed mind". I think it is one that dogmaticly argues for some point of view as an article of FAITH rather than as a result of LOGIC. For some, I guess, audio is a religion. |
Viridian: As i've mentioned before, i do think a lot of what we hear can be collaborated with specs. That is, to a certain extent and taking into account that the specs and testing were done in proper fashion. Obviously, spec's can be made to lie and / or be presented in a manner that is less than completely telling. Being able to decipher and interpret which specs are most important and "telling" of how a component might perform is no different than the clues or "evidence" that a well trained detective has to decipher in order to put the pieces of a crime together. As we have all seen, a good "investigator" can crack cases whereas a less skilled "investigator" could look at the very same "clues" and come up with a different interpretation of events and / or have nothing to go on at all. While it is true that a lot of what the "super snooper" comes up with is based on "educated guesswork" and requires "logical deductions", it is sometimes spooky what one can conclude by looking at the spec's / test results and corraborating this with what one actually hears. Having an idea of what all those charts / graphs mean is a good starting point, as you can't interpret what you can't understand. After all, if test results meant absolutely nothing, we would not have been able to refine products / designs to the point that we have today. Good luck trying to make something better when all you have is guesswork to go on without some way to measure / substantiate the various changes made along the way. Sean > |
The higher the resolution capability of my system evolved , the easier it became to discern the changes various "tweeks " imparted on my system. Pc s have only recently become relevant to me. The introduction of the Elrods were at once apparent. The proof is in the listening and with my system , its obvious . To me it is anyway. |
The only one who can convince you is you. To those who say, "Convince me", I say, "Sorry, I'm too busy." I don't particularly care whether you can hear the difference a power cord makes, or not. But to those who are interested in learning, I say, "Try." Make sure your system already performs well--a poor quality or badly matched system won't show differences in power cords well, or at all. Then you can try a cord or two, listen to recordings you know well, and see what you hear. |
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To the "unbelievers", please read and respond to the thread entitled "Philips SACD 1000 / power cords in general accordingly. Prior to doing so, please be aware that i too was an "unbeliever" up until about 5 years ago. In fact, i was involved in a thread that "debated" the effects of AC cords that had 60+ responses in less than 4 hours time. Most of those responses were between a small group of individuals on both sides of the fence. My position was similar to those promoted by Eldartsford, Bomarc, Pbb, etc... i.e. i was under the impression that a power cord could NOT alter the sonics of a component. That was until i tried various power cords on different components and did hear a difference. As such, all of my previous posts were done in haste as i had relied on "common sense" and my prior level of education on the subject rather than first hand experience and trusting one's own senses. As discussed in the thread that i linked to, i was able to measure a difference in frequency response / apparent sonics when changing power cords. Granted, this was an "impromptu" test that wasn't performed under lab grade conditions, but the conditions that were present were as close to identical for both DUT's ( Device Under Test ) that could be achieved at the time. As such, any errors that were in place for one cord were also present for the other and would cancel each other out in the end readings. While i can't explain the differences in perceived sonics and measured frequency response abberations in "techno-speak", i do know what i heard and i do know what the test instruments confirmed. How susceptible or noticeable other designs / systems are to such changes, i don't know. Sean > PS... I wish you folks could see one of the highly intellectual T-shirts that i wear. It says "I used to have an open mind, but my brain kept falling out" : ) |
fatparrot...If you read my comment you will note that I did not say that special power cords can make no difference. I simply remarked that the difference, if any, would be of an electrical nature and therefore able to be objectively measured. I am a scientist: like the ones who disproved the subjective opinion that the earth must be flat. Show me the data about power cords. I am anxious to be enlightened. And Pbb...sorry, the bridge has been sold. |
cfmartin, try these simple exercises with the cords you already have and see if they change the overall sound of your system: 1. put the heaviest gauge cords on the most current hungry components. mine are all marked 16/3 or 18/3. 16 is heavier. the insulation can be deceiving. read them if you can. 2. route the cords away from your interconnects. by some miracle of engineering alot of cords exit their components via the left side when viewed from the front. in any case, place your power strip on the side which provides the least interaction with your interconnects. If a power cord must touch an interconnect make sure they cross one another at right angles. 3. keep the power cords apart from each other, even by an inch. don't coil any excess. don't bundle them together even if it looks tidy. 4. keep the accessible metal surfaces of the plugs free of oxidation. i use car wax but i'll bet there's something more trick to clean the copper or brass they're made of. quite by accident, i'd ignored one or more of these simple procedures while setting up a new rack and found my system immediately sounding thin. getting all of them right restored its full body. |
Gotta say, these things make a difference. Power cords *and* outlets. I NEVER would have thought this to be the case! Just some personal background to so you know how entrenched in the nay-sayers' camp I was. Undergrad in Physics and Math. 5 years engineering in aerospace - electrical, RF, and systems design. Graduate degree in Mechanical Engineering and an MBA. Hence, I have a background to understand the physics and bull shit marketing; this power cord stuff was nothing but snake oil. Wrong. If your systems has a threshold of resolution, you will hear a difference. And you have nothing to lose - most of these power cord guys give you a home trial period - why not try it for yourself? Understand, the audio system is quite complex - from electronic design, to room treatment, to vibration management, on and on there is work to optimize the system. Take advantage of this amazing Forum and learn! Best, |
When Nikola Tesla discovered the AC system we have today, it was rushed into service because the Direct Current System in use had serious problems. In the process of changing one system for another, no one considered changing cabling systems because for its time, the DC cabling system appeared to work well enough. A century later, cracks are appearing in the dam. As electrical equipment develops with greater sophistication, flaws in the cable delvery system are becoming more apparent. At the consumer end, the old DC designs must give way to a new type of Power Cable developed specifically for Alertnating Current. Why? When AC is transferred through cable that is designed for DC, large amounts of distortion are created. Any high tech electrical device will suffer performance degradation when AC is conveyed without consideration of its unique characteristics; we call this phenomenon AC Pulse Distortion. How is this distortion created? Every time AC switches phase a pulse is sent through the cable structure and resonates to the tone of the AC pulse. (This is what you hear when your car passes beneath transmission lines with the radio on.) Any signal, like music superimposed over this tone will instantly become modulated, therein lay the problem. The traditional solution has been to dampen conductors by heaping large amounts of insulation on the structure. This is an attempt to solve an electrical problem with a mechanical solution...it is basically ineffective and certainly not elegant. Through years of rigorous research, a solution has evolved and in the process a whole new technology has been developed. A breakthrough came with the realization that phase pulse intensity is controllable and that created a solution to a very large problem. This accomplishment breaks the link between cable structure and resonance of the AC pulse. Music may now manifest in its original pristine state with no background noise. This new advancement is implemented without the use of traditional electrical components such as resistors, inductors, capacitors, etc., because these devices are highly resonant and contribute to the problem. Major Point: If all the essential peices of an audio system were soldered together with no cabling used, the pulse effect would continue to exist. ONLY within the domain of electron transfer (cabling) can this situation be confronted, maipulated and defeated. |
I beg to differ. Powercords do change the sound of any system. Or, am I the only one that hear a difference in every powercord I've plugged into my system? (That would be an argument for me having golden ears. However, I can't hear the difference between different isolation tweaks under my cd player.) |
Eldartford & Bomarc, you should consider joining the "Flat Earth Society". After all, if the earth was round, we would all slide off! And if the earth were round and also rotating, we would just be flung off into space. About the same logic here as you guys make in your posts! Or perhaps your systems are just not of the caliber to benefit from the sonic improvements of a good after market power cord. Kind of like re-jetting the carburetor on a Yugo to get better performance! |
Eldartford, I may be interested in that bridge in Brooklyn, but first I have to buy Viridian's open mind. Maybe, in between the two, I will mortgage my home to rewire right back to the Hydro-Québec generating facility in search of the absolute sound and of "emotion" from my system. Remember in selling that bridge these immortal words from the son of a local pawnbroker here: "money talks and bullshit walks". From a bitter, bitter man. |
Here is my theory as to why they make a difference, with analysis and measurements. Amplifiers demand current from the power-line when the capacitors in their power-supplies become momentarily discharged due to high-current transients in the music signal. This discharge condition must be quickly recharged from the power-line, through the power-supply transformer, or a voltage sag will occur. Such voltage sags can cause audible distortion at the loudspeakers. If the power-line has significant series inductance in the path from the power panel to the amplifier, this can prevent the capacitor bank from recharging in time to prevent a voltage sag from occurring at the amplifier output transistors. With a low-inductance cable, the voltage drop across the cable will be insignificant during high-current transients, minimizing the voltage sag. This allows all of the current needed by the output transistors to be supplied when they need it, resulting in fast, dynamic response to transient signals. A typical 6-foot 14 AWG rubber cord and 25 feet of ROMEX has inductance of 7.2 uH and resistance of 235 mohms, ignoring the plug resistance effect. Therefore, the voltage drop at 20kHz will be I*(wL+R)= I*(.905+.235) = I*(1.14). With a 6-foot low-inductance cord and 25 feet of ROMEX, the inductance is 5.9 uH and the total resistance is 147 mohms. This is an 18% reduction in inductance and a 37% reduction in resistance. The voltage drop for this combination will be I(wL+R) = I(.741+.147) = I(.888). So at a fixed dynamic current I, the voltage drop in the entire power feed at 20kHz is 22% smaller with the low-inductance power cord. I would consider 22% to be significant. The reality is even more compelling. When you add in lower plug and receptacle resistance and the fact that the di/dt on the power cord will have spectra well above 20kHz with some amplifiers, the low-inductance cord makes an even bigger difference. And please don't give me a lot of flack about 60Hz current in power cords. The currents are very high in frequency - just measure them... |
Although this has been asked and answered many times here, I'll add to the database of discussion. There are many reasons power cords make a difference, and "what sonic difference they make" is dependent on a myriad of design factors such as inductance, impedance, shielding, dielectric, contacts, wire type and gauge..etc etc.. Contrary to the popular refrain "why should the last 6 feet of fancy power cord make a difference at the end of two miles of Romex?" The truth is that the "last six feet" is NOT the last 6 feet from the perspective of the component, it is the FIRST six feet. In addition, EMI and other high frequency noise and interference do not travel down power lines like debris travelling down stream-- most HF noise is radiated from point sources. This radiated noise loses intensity the farther you move awat from the source, and then most of this type of noise is gone, entirely. Now, the relevant issue becomes what are the point sources of noise that because of proximity, are potentially the most significant in effecting system performance? Generally speaking, components in an audio visual system are all within a few feet of eachother, they are all interconnected and are tied to a common AC source (dedicated lines help). All of these components have power supplies that radiate EMI noise, and all pass noise in varying degrees back onto the power line via ground. As you approach this combination of power supplies, all of these radiating feilds of energy and noise are converging. A system of electronis often acts as a "loop" of sorts for radiated noise and energy fields that can not possibly be (entirely) ameliorated by traditional power supplies or out-board conditioning/filtration . The type and form of AC signal isolation applied in those "first" few feet outside a component has the potential to impact the condition of the AC signal as it passes into the power supply. Of course, power supplies have their own methods of dealing with incoming noise, but most manufacturers of electronics will admit, there is no perfect way (yet) to eliminate the effects of noise riding in on the power line. Of course, there can be exhaustive technical discussions, arguments, counter claims and the like on these forums, but the bottom line is: you HAVE to try these products for yourself within the context of your own system to judge their value and effectiveness. And because the many power cord designs on the market vary widely in terms of quality and design, you should try more than just one type or model. There are many studios, including those owned by Phillips and Sony, and mastering engineers, recording artists, producers etc. who have found after market power cords to be a valuable tool in improving their systems and recordings. Many manufacturers of electronics/speakers in this industry use and endorse them as well. I think we've past the point where there can be any question whether there are power cord designs that can make a positive difference in system performance. The only relevant issue left is proving to yourself whether a specific product can make positive difference --in your system. Forum Q and A's all become moot at that point. Happy listening! |
I have now installed all high end power cords in my system. The difference each and every time has been,,,, surprising for lack of a better word. Everyone that has heard my system noticed a difference immediately, depth of soundstage increases, clarity, and more pinpoint placement within the soundstage. I suggest if you want to experiment, try a good midgrade one first and see the difference for yourself. They are really affordable on Agon, and I have bought most of mine personally on here, its the best! Happy listening! |
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Power cords cannot make a "sonic" difference because they make no sound. Any difference must be electronic, subsequently converted to sonic by amplifier circuitry and loudspeakers. Electronic characteristics, unlike sound quality, is easily measured by objective instrumentation. I will not believe that power cords make any difference until someone shows me the data. And anyway...your line cord is about 6 feet long. How about the miles of wire that the power travels before it gets to your power cord? If you are interested, I have a bridge in Brooklyn... |