Sean: I know many are searching for truth in this audio jungle. For years our products have always been at the forefront of cable technology but only recently have we been able to release the audio gene from the bottle. This has been the primary motivation behind my pronouncements. We have so many orders to fill it is going to be difficult to find time to participate in this forum. I do want to say; it has been stimulating conversing with you, Eldartford,Twl, Viggen,Vetterone and others. If you decide to purchase a cable we have a 30 day money back guarantee, be sure and let me know what you think of the performance along with any suggested improvements.
Sean: 06-05-03 On this thread I listed the dealers who can provide additional information about the cables. The product names are Ampthrilla and Pre-Thrilla, the company is Sahuaro Audio.
Eldartford: I don't know of any manufacturer that publishes specific spec's on power cords. That does not mean that some of us haven't taken the time to take readings on various cables / designs and compiled our own little notebooks. Some of us do feel that there is a method to the madness and the more knowledge / hard facts that we can accumulate on the subject, the less "eye of newt" and "snake oil" you'll need to build a good cable. As such, knowing how your cable measures in terms of absolute values and measurements per foot can give us "techies" a better idea of what you are working with.
Corona: Like i said before, if people are already buying this product, how do you intend to keep the basic design principles / materials secret ? I'm not asking you for a play by play, i'm simply asking for you to verify that such products do exist so that those that are interested can check into purchasing them. If this truly is a "ground-breaking" product and as good as you say it is, why would you want to deny yourself the opportunity to advertise in what is a highly read forum / thread ? On top of this, i'm asking you for info. As such, you won't hear anybody claiming that you're out "shilling for business". As far as i can tell, it would be a win / win situation for you in terms of exposure and potential sales.
As far as your comments go about finding correlations between design geometries, materials used, etc..., i agree with you. Not in the fact that you can't find any correlations between measurable performance & percieved sonics but in the fact that publishing specific technical info would end up demystifying power cords and lower the potential to rip customers off in terms of them finding out just how much "research" and material actually went into building their "beloved" mega-dollar cables. I don't know of any "magician" / "side show charlatan" that is making tall cash "scamming" people that would be willing to give away their secrets to the public for free. After all, once that secret is out and others can figure out how to do it, the novelty and exclusivity have worn off and the price and demand begin to fall. As such, silence IS golden. That is, so long as you can keep the secret. Sean >
Sean: We have built hundreds of cable prototypes,foil, flat wire,ribbon,square,also, every conceivable round wire configuration.We have yet to find any correlation between inductance,impedance,capacitance and performance. Most of the cable designers,many from the highly advertised arena, all agree on this point. But one thing for sure they are not going to put it in print. Why? Because the consumer believes it to be true.
Corona...What I milled down was a 3/4 inch length of twisted-together and soldered triad of #20. I would guess this was about #6 in diameter. About 1/2 inch of this I milled down so it would just barely fit into my heavy duty connector...about #10 size.
Sean...Do we have any impedance or capacitance data for the various highly-touted power cords? If not, I don't see any use for such measurements on my supercord.
To all....If you are a Wizard, and are publishing the recipe for a magic potion it is always a good idea to include some ingredient that is difficult or impossible to obtain. (The eye of a newt collected during a solar eclipse on a Tuesday). Then if the damsel does not respond as expected, you can always tell your client that the potion was not prepared properly. This power cord stuff involves a lot of black magic. Are you wizards?
Corona: While reducing the surface area where the connections mate will reduce the total current capacity of the cable, the blades that go into the wall and the IEC will melt before the "limited" current capacity of Eldartford's method comes into play. Yes, doing so will alter the impedance of the cable, but not enough to negate the benefits that he sought to achieve via distributed capacitance.
By the way, when are you going to support your claims / comments with some hard information pertaining to makes & models ? We are still waiting....
Audioengr: Hope you had a good time at the show and was / will be profitable for you.
I don't know what to tell you about Mr Sander's reaction to this specific brand of cables. I'm simply going by the information that was passed onto me by a very reliable source.
As far as the Goertz cables go, i assume that you're talking about their speaker cables given the reference to low inductance being beneficial. As you are probably well aware, i'm pretty fond of these as a general rule. Minimal skin effect ( they are ALL "skin" ), minimal dielectric ( new models use Teflon ) for reduced DA ( Dielectric Absorption ), heavy gauge for low series resistance, low nominal impedance for maximum power transfer, wide bandwidth, etc... If people don't like how these speaker cables sound in their system, they need to look at why the system doesn't sound good, not blame the cables !!! As far as ways to improve these cables, all they need to do is get some decent connectors on these things. Other than their Silver spades, their standard spades, bananas and pin connectors are junk !!!
If you are still running the JC-1's and can get away with a four feet of speaker cable, i can send you some MI-3's ( 7 gauge / nominal impedance of 2 ohms ) to check out. I had these running from my Kinergetics KBA-202A Platinum Mono-Block's to my Ohm F's. Since i'm not using the mono's right now, you're more than welcome to give them a try. Sean >
Sean - been at HE2003, but I'm back now. Regarding Goertz, these cables make a lot of sense technically. There is no way to get lower inductance than this. Not sure why Roger would be concerned about the amps. They should be able to drive these - particularly given they do not have any global negative feedback. His concern is probably more about the speakers themselves.
El: I'd be curious as to the specific capacitive and inductive measurements that you get with such a cable. Is it possible to either post these specs or forward them to me via email if you have the means to do so ? Sean >
sean...When twisted together three #12 conductors were obviously too big to fit even a heavy duty connector. No problem. I soldered the twisted triad together, and then milled it down with a grinder so as to just barely fit the connector.
When you said "stacked", this made me think of three pieces of zip cord standing side by side in a row i.e. "hot / hot / hot" stacked on top of "neutral / neutral / neutral" and then twisted. By staggering the conductors, i meant exactly what you ended up doing, i.e. alternating polarity for every other wire. That should work fine from what i can tell. My only thoughts are "good luck" in getting all of these properly terminated into a connector : ) Sean >
sean...3 Hot, 3 Neutral, stacked and twisted as a stack. I am using a 3 prong plug and I have a ground wire connected, but since the original design had no ground wire on the power line (there is a separate grounding lug on the chassis) this conductor is not integrated with the other six.
Eldartford: How are you going to configure this wire geometrically ? Are you including a ground in this buch of six or are you using 3 hots and 3 neutrals ? Sean >
sean...the wire has been twisted...six strands of #12, solid core, thin teflon insulation, with heavy duty plug on the end. It may be a while until I get the test run. When it happens I will report results in a new post.
Sonic_genius: I think we all fall victim at times to forgetting that it really is supposed to be about the music.
So many threads end up a religious argument about hardware...it reminds me of my days as a freshman in high school, when "I like prog rock and everything else sucks", was constantly at war with the guy carving "Framton rules (sic)" into the desk...who thought everything prog sucked along with the people who liked it.
I have to believe large doses of live music of widely varying genres can mitigate this tendency. But of course, I don't necessarily need to believe this religiously.
Eldartford: I hope you realize i was just joking. I'd have to hear and see the results of something like what Corona is talking about to even remotely think about spending that kind of money on "wire". Sean >
Now, I hate to be smug here, but with all the discussion that's been going on here with Corona (and really, I wish that much Secret Agent research was being done in, say, petroleum alternatives than audiophile power cords), I think I'm getting much more musical enjoyment working through Keith Jarrett's "My Song" on the piano.
Mind you, an ACOUSTIC piano that doesn't benefit at all from a superconductor power cord.
Ok, have fun. If people are that gullible, you have every right to hook them. If the cable sounds better than others, then it will stand on its own merits regardless of the technology.
Corona: As i previously stated, if this product is already for sale, people are ordering it, etc... WHY can't you provide at least a link to information on this product or materials that go into making this product ? Even if it only contains generic info that one would find in a "sales brochure", that would be better than the "NOTHING" that you have provided thus far. Sean >
PS... We have had "wires" that have been called "superconductors" around for a relatively long period of time. These "wires" offer far lower resistance than any of those commonly used and do not require low temperatures for increased conductivity. While they may not be of the same levels being discussed here, they are MUCH better than anything that we are using for audio purposes. Problem is, these wires are PHENOMENALLY expensive per foot, are stiff as hell and require a very large bend radius. If someone were using wires like this as a base conductor for audio cables, i might be able to justify the "mega dollar" expenses involved in some of these "Salon" type cables.
Nothing new really. However, the reason that superconductors are of great interest is for transmitting data, not for 60 cycle AC current. That's like saying you inted to put dual 250 hp. outboards on an 8 foot boat. Comon, lets not get star treky here.
Eldartford: I think that you should pick up a set from one of the dealers that Corona mentioned on a 15 - 30 day trial basis and use these "super cables" as a comparison against your stock cables. Using an FFT to analyze these cables will leave NO room for excuse should they not do exactly what Corona states. Sean >
Twl: Have you been entangled with a large corporation,it a long way from fun. We have seen nothing but back order since the introduction of this new product,we are getting orders from people who have never seen the cables. They are creating a great deal of excitement so I thought it would be fun to share a little in this forum, that is what this venue is all about? In the past the D.E.O. has inquired about our products but that's another story.
First,you said there was no information on room temperature super conductivity and now your quoting it. I would love share this development with all, but you don't post ten years of hard work on the internet and expect to stay in business,get real! Listen to the cables if they are not everything I say they are then post that in this forum.
I went to your first link, and found no superconductors that operate over 140-160 degrees Kelvin, even under high pressure. Room temp is 295 Kelvin. Another of your links, Futurescience.com has superconductor kits that state this: "All superconductor kits require liquid nitrogen. Do not order these superconductor kits unless you know how to obtain and handle liquid nitrogen." Several other of your links don't work.
I cut-and-pasted an article here from www.sciencenet.org.uk/database/Physics/0003/p01422d.html
Here's the article from ScienceNet.(copyright 2003)
Question: Is it true that superconductors have been developed that work at room temperature, but they are not being used so as not to upset the global economy?
We contacted a number of experts regarding your question on superconductivity. Here’s what they have to say: “Well, no! The maximum critical temperature is still around 120K, with no real sign of increasing. Any scientist would be guaranteed instant fame and fortune, including a Nobel Prize, for discovering such a superconductor. No one would keep it quiet out of a (misplaced?) concern for the global economy. There is no example in history and many counter examples. Besides, it is not obvious that it would have such an effect!”
“The highest temperature superconductor is a mercury based cuprate with a Tc of about 140K rising to 160K under high pressure.
Practical superconductors using the new high temperature superconductors are all based around YBa2Cu3O7- and Ytrium based cuprate with a Tc of 90K. This is because enough material science work has been done to be able to manufacture wires and thin films which carry large currents.
These are being used already in microwave applications for high Q resonators- particular for the communication industry. They are also being used in wires for some power applications.
Along side the development of high temperature superconductors has been the development of low cost refrigeration units using the Joule-Kelvin effect which can cool large volumes to below 100K....this is to make the superconductors economically viable.
If there is a high temperature superconductor with Tc at room temperature there would be no reason to keep it a secret unless you were developing it for applications and wanted to keep it under wraps until you had solved the immense problems of turning a new material into a useful material.”
“Before 1986, the 'record high' for a superconducting phase transition temperature was 23.2 K (-249.8°C) for a material based on Nb3Ge (in 1973).
Since 1986, the record highest reached superconducting transition temperature has been ~135 K (-138°C) for a Mercury based material. To date this temperature has only increased to a maximum of ~158 K (-115°C). However, this temperature was achieved by placing the material under a large pressure.
So called commercial high-temperature superconductors (based on YBa2Cu3O7) generally operate at a transition temperature around ~100 K (-173°C). If you consider room temperature to be 295 K (22°C), you can see that at present superconductors are far from the room temperature operating regime.”
And finally, at least one of our experts has a sense of humour: “I have nothing to add except the temptation to say that these superconductors were used by Elvis Presley to kill President Kennedy!” END
Perhaps I'll need a few more of those links you have. Or how about just a cut-and-pasted article for all of us to read about this significant breakthrough in technology. PS - I am aware of the new diamond/oxygen process which is currently not fully proven, but being looked at.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for improvements and new technology. But claiming room temp superconductors for cables needs to be verified, for me to accept these claims. I'm even willing to accept near-room temp superconductors, or room-temp near-superconductors. Show us something.
Twl: You said,"A web search show no current technology that supports room temperature superconductors,even in lab conditions." What planet are you living on? Try this for starters: sciencedaily.com, ecjonesw.org,geocities.com,eurekalert.org,iea.org,futuresience.com,energyscience.co.uk,phy.hw.ac.uk,colorado.edu,rhic2physics.wayne.edu,vjsuper.org I can list at least 50 more if you run out of material.
A web search shows no current technology that supports room temperature superconductors, even in lab conditions. Maybe you should take a few thousand feet of it to New Jersey and save them the cooling bill.
Gentlemen, these are exciting times. At this moment the worlds first super conductive power transmission cable is being laid from New York to New Jersey. This cable will convey 5 times more power than a conventional design. The problem with this technology involves the use of a super coolant, highly impractical for home use. To my knowledge we are the first company to develop a limited application of Room Temperature Super Conductivity, and yes it works! No, the cables do not sell for $2500; the price range is $650-$850 for a 5 cable. To keep the price affordable the many parts and fabrications are all designed for a 5 length. Any deviation from 5 is a custom length and requires additional tuning. Every foot [+ or -] changes the tuning but once it is set there is practically no degradation due to length. Another plus, the design is so effective it eliminates the need for dedicated power lines. If you already have one it is still a plus but not to the degree it is with conventional cables. The Company who produces this cable has existed almost exclusively through in-home demonstrations. For six years we have specialized in selling results. During that time a very important fact has been learned; skeptics make the best customers. As you have already noticed I love to talk technology. However, industry marketing does not work for us, wed rather show than tell, but time and distance often makes that impossible. The Company you ask about is named after the large cactus with arms that grows in the Arizona desert, Sahuaro Audio. The featured dealer who advertises on Audiogon is AudioLon. Audio Excellence does not advertise here but has been a long time dealer. The showcase dealer, Perrotta Consulting will soon be acquiring our line of cables.
Corona: Are you involved with the marketing, design, production, sales, etc.. of any type of audio based product ? Given the fiasco that came of the ART amplifier thread, we might as well get this type of thing out in the open right away when someone starts making BIG claims about a product.
If you have no vested financial interest in this product, and it is already being demo'd to various individuals and / or groups, how about sharing the make / model of this product with us ? We are all on the hook, now start reelin' us in : ) Sean >
A solution to what exactly? Corona, if there is field theory involved in your 'pulse' idea, I certainly hope there is an IEEE-level white paper with theory, modeling and measurements to back it up.
Why do I feel the world's next $2500 power cord coming on?
Hahaha... as i've said before, it's too bad we can't get people together and "talk shop" without being afraid of losing what they consider "proprietary knowledge". While everybody has their "trade secrets", and i'm sure that some of these are quite ingenious, i don't think that any individual / group of individuals has ALL the answers. That's why it is great to be able to pick and choose the best ideas of the lot and incorporate them into your own DIY designs : ) Sean >
Corona, I understand what you are saying although you are very vague in your answer. So what is the point? Yes I know their is a solution, which hopefully will soon be a patented process.
Michaelhwolf: You are starting to get it! The answer has nothing to with the things you just outlined. Try this: take all your audio cables and tie them together while still connected to your equipment. Play your system, the hazy sound you will hear is field contamination. Would it not be correct to say the field inside the cable is just as degrading as the field that bleeds to the outside? Now, there is a solution to this problem but that is for another time.
all experiences can be broken down into apriori fragments or so kant would say. and, as descartes would say, apriori is self evident. Thus, would the essence of experience be lost if there is no self evidence?
So putting all things aside and the nit pick. I was a industrial as well as a medical x-ray technician for a number of years. So all this metal wire which is cryoed, constant casted, solid vs. stranded, welded, soldered and crimped still has stress fractures in the wire and in the weld or solder joint. I can't even believe that some companies have gone to welding the wire to plugs. So as the metal expands and contracts with temperature variations and humidity, as it is bent in the application it is meant for, as it ages and becomes more brittle. What does all this falderal buy us. Not a darn thing except something neat to talk about.
Parameters: When doing a cable A-B if one cable allows you to hear: The background insruments as obvious as the presentation in the foreground,the singer's voice is so well articulated every word is crystal clear,the quality of the instruments being used as well as the projected technique and skill of the virtuoso,ambient reflections do the size of the hall. Why stop there? One cable allows your transistor amp to run 12 degrees cooler while there is a 6db increase in volume measured at the speaker because its design does not generate loss. The people who have just experienced the demonstration could care less about "published results" they have just received a healthy dose of reality. Now I have a question for you. Do you think there experiences in life that are self evident?
I am sort of surprised at the results that your evaluation group came up with since the constant casting process only considers and improves on the crystallization process that metals go through during its cooling process and not the amount of fractures it does or does not reduce. In fact, from the X-ray photos I've seen on some Asian websites that market CC, the metals actually already have numerous fractures in them. It is merely the minimalization of stray crystallizations that seems to benefit the sonic attributes of the metal in question since these stray crystals allegedly distort the signal transfer process. However, I am not EE so who knows.
Corona, can you please go into a lot more detail on that last one. What parameters does your group measure, what parameters does it think are relevant, how does it correlate them with sound or with other system parameters, and where does it publish it's results?
Viggen: That is exactly what I ment. The companies you mentioned should have warning label "PLEASE DO NOT BEND". It does not matter, their overall design/performance is so bad they have been the object of many jokes created by our independent evaluation groups.
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