Beheme,
When you say "They are something special when associated with the right gear"...I am assuming you are referring to Totem Hawks. Are you saying Hawks - Cary SLI 80 combo is a good system synergy for 2 channel Music ? I had a chat with totem folks and they said Hawks being an already WARM speaker, they will have more system sunergy with a slightly NEUTRAL amp like Plinius 9200 (SS - 200 watts/ch). But Totems folks recommended Cary-SLI 80 and VTL IT-85 ( warm amps ) for more neutral sounding speakers like Forests. Can you please let me know what your experiences are with Hawks/Forests with cary SLI 80 and any other Amps for 2 channel music and HT.
Thanks
Grakesh |
Jh20s,
I understand that you dont have forests anymore with you for a direct A/B comparision. It will be great if you can relate to your recent audition of forests and throw some comparision points.
It is very disappointing to see such a disclaimer 'important notice' on a 2000 dollar speaker. I hope this notice is atleast in-reference to HT only and not for 2 channel. I am plannng Hawks for 2 channel use and may be as rear speakers in a HT.
Jh2os..Did you remember seeng any such disclaimer notice with Forests ? How did forests do in a HT set-up ?
Grakesh |
Jh2os: that is interesting! The loaner I had came with no instructions but the dealer warned me and my HT need were better served by the AP. I am a real fan of Totem products and their designer but a $2,000 floorstander that cannot take an occasional beating and/or that comes with such a written warning is really disappointing. Long throw or not, one should be able to hit them as hard as their specs tolerate. Even a careful music listener may be surprised by the dynamics of a new record and induce some pain on these babies. To me, the disclaimer is almost a warning that these speakers have been over-engineered to reproduce bass excessive for the size of their woofer.
On the other hand, the one that matters.... they are something special when associated with the right gear. I loved them with the Cary SLI 80. Let us know after 150 hrs how you like them and if they are still intact! |
Beheme, the Hawks came with a red 'important notice' sheet regarding the drivers and break in. They recommend the first 150 hours to be at moderate listening levels; 'This said, even after break in, because of extreme long throw of the woofer and taking into consideration its dimension, one has to use a certain amount of restraint and judgment in order to protect the woofer elements. These are precise reproducers that extend very low in frequency and restraint is sometimes required in order to not overtax them beyond their physical limitations.' So read the 'important notice'. I found this sheet curiously interesting and even more so reading the comment from your dealer above.
Grakesh, I no longer have the Forests to do a head-to-head-to-head comparasion, but the woofer was blown, so the Forests wouldn't have faired well anyway. ;) I can comment on their performance having recently owned them though, although my thoughts/comments may be a bit skewed regarding my recent history. ;)
The Hawks have about 50 hours on them so far, been playing John Pizarelli 24/7 since Saturday at 'moderate levels'. Listening to some movies on it for the first time this evening. Seem to have a lot more presence for HT compared to the Sttaf. Haven't done a direct head-to-head yet though, so I'll post back later - after the 150 hour mark. |
JH2os: sorry to hear about your sad experience. I got bashed for starting a thread re: Forest using Swan's drivers but I guess there may be an issue with quality control somewhere between China and Montreal...
A year and a half ago, I had to let go the idea of keeping the Hawks I had on loan as the dealer, well informed, told me their driver was way too delicate for a HT use - he made same comment re: Forest... I then turned to the Yara but he recommended I stayed with Totem but went the Dreamcatcher way, 2 monitors with two subs or Staff + 1 sub if needed (room size). I was not thrilled with the idea of a monitor + a sub * 2 and did not like the Staff on pure 2ch audio so I went the AP Yara way.
So, if you must stay with Totem and you like Staff, go for it otherwise you may want to start "cheating" on Totem and go somewhere else...$ for $, the Yaras will likely blow away the Staff for 2ch audio IMHO. |
Jh2os,
Eagerly waiting for your feedback. Hoping that you will compare Hawks with Staffs and Forests as well.
Thanks
grakesh |
I love the look of the claws. So much so that I got them installed on my Arros. It makes the speaker look much classier and the Art Deco look contrasts nicely with the rich cherry wood.
I prefer the Arro's over the staff. Room size would be a factor though, if the room was large I would porbably consider the Staffs.
Jh2os, nice to hear you got the Hawks in you're room. Play around with different positioning when you listen. Glad you are letting them burn in first - it't worth it. |
My mom picked picked the Sttafs over the rest of the Totem line up for 3 reasons.
1. looks. no silver claws (she thought they looked obnoxious) and still pretty small.
2. lacked the ultimate clarity of the Arros, but in turn had a broader and fuller range. Can play pretty loud.
3. Much better bang for the buck than the Hawks/Forrests.
My personal observation is that they sound good at all volumes, can be driven with pretty low power (she's usiing 60w), and are very easy to get into. Probably the best all around compromise you can get out of $1400 of speaker.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing your decision. |
Currently have both the Hawks and the Sttafs in house right now. Letting the Hawks 'burn in' over the week and hope to do some serious listening this upcoming weekend. |
Baroque_Lover,
What you said is right....auditioning makes most sense to make a decision. Un-fortunately dealers close to my place do not carry Hawks and Staffs. I will have to drive atleast 450 miles one-way to listen to Hawks. I am willing to do that and just waiting for the right weekend. As you said, I will not buy a speaker without listening to it.
Thanks
Grakesh |
Grakesh, I will happily post my thoughts. The Hawks have to be ordered, so it may be a bit until I get the chance to compare? |
Grakesh,
You have been mulling this decision for quite some time now. Why not go down to a dealer and make a judgment of you're own? You will always be pulling at you're hair "wondering" if you don't listen for yourself. |
Jh20s,
I am eagerly awaiting your comparision of Hawks with Staffs and Forest. I am in the same boat as you trying to decide between Staffs, Hawks, Forest, SF GP Domus and SF Concerto Domus.
I will highly appreciate if you can post your observations of Hawks and I will really appreciate if you can post your comparision of Staff, Hawk and Forest.
Grakesh |
Yeah, coming down from the Forests, the Hawks may retain some qualities of precision that the Sttafs can't hold onto? I am hoping to give the Hawks a listen in-home in the near future so I can let my ears decide... |
I played the Sttafs on their own (ie no sub) for about 6 months. They have very good low end, especially for their size. The speakers I upgraded from provided deep bass - flat to 22 hz, and it wasn't until I played my old progressive rock cd's that I decided something was lacking. If your tastes don't include rock and progressive with deep bass tones as a key element, then I imagine you'll be quite happy without adding a sub.
If it were me, and I believed I wouldn't need a sub with the Sttafs, I would certainly give the Hawks a try (if trying them is an option). I think they buy you about 5 hz deeper extension (ie 38hz - 33hz), but the bigger advantage from what my salesman told me is tighter and more precise - whether it's enough difference to impress you can only be deternined one way. When I bought mine, I maxed my budget with the Sttafs so decided not to look further . . . The great part about them is I had no regrets that I didn't have more money - they're such a great sounding speaker - but I think this is true about the entire Totem line. |
Well I listened to the Staffs in my system this weekend and was surprised at how good they sounded - well, I shouldn't say surprised, but impressed.
When I moved the Arros to the larger space I quickly realized that I needed to move to a larger speaker as the Arro just couldn't flesh out the soundstage in the larger room - this prompted the purchase of the longed for Forests. The Sttafs had quite some presence in my room - not that of the Forests, nor the pinpoint detailing and precision, but they they didn't have a 'chuffing' woofer either! ;)
Having listened to the Sttafs on their own, I can say I probably wouldn't even need to add a sub? I am not a bass junkie and the presentation seemed full enough for me to enjoy. I would also like to keep the room less cluttered - less two subwoofer 'boxes', and the system simpler as well.
Now I just have to decide if I give the Hawks a shot against them? I guess the only way to know for sure is the bring them home and compare. |
Jh2os
RE: Link for Equations:
Audiomat is the NA distributor www.mutine.com/pages/products.html
Also UHF Magazine has reviewed the Equation speakers and their reviews can also be found on the Mutine web site. (The company is also known as Mutine) I think their web site sucks so you may need to tour around a bit to find what your looking for.
One complaint I have read many times on the Audiogon site is the lack of Audiomat dealers.
I know they are more expensive, but I heard Living Voice speakers at the last Montreal show. Yum yum--nice speakers I would be proud to own and they would be very easy for you amp to drive i.e., ***sensitivity 94 dB***
In reality there is a lot of good speakers out their this is just my 2 cents worth. |
You should seriously look at Audio Physics offering.
The Tempo would be a REALLY nice match with the I-5. |
Jh2os - I meant to comment on the power requirement - My Manis need all of the 200 wpc my monoblocks can drive (actually 400 wpc @ 4 ohms). I've driven the Sttafs with as little as 60 wpc and they're fine. Not as efficient as other speakers but pretty forgiving. They also sound nice without driving them hard. That is - it seems the Mani's want to be opened up before they really sound good. Not so with the Sttafs, which is another one of the appealing qualities. |
24u, do you have a link to more information on the Equations? My google results didn't turn up much...
Bdgregory, thanks for the comments! I would love to do without a sub, but I think in my space the Sttafs would need a little help. I would go the Mani route, but that would require an amplification change at the same time!!! ;) |
Hi
I own a pair of Forests and have not had any problems, but if I experienced what you did I would not have so patient. Have you heard Equations? The Equation 7's are about the same price as the Forests and, I think, more musical. It is too bad about the Forests though for they are a good speaker. Great imaging. Anyway good luck in your choice.
24u |
I've owned a pair of Sttafs for 2 years now. I still think they're fantastic in many ways, and would recommend them to anyone. I've never tired of listening to them. I'm a fanatic for deep bass however, and in my room they were lacking. I was happy with them without it, but I added a Rel Storm III to them and that's a great combination. As long as you can have them some distance from the wall they are easy to position and tune. Super easy to integrate with the sub. So . . . I guess that's my endorsement for the Sttaf/Dreamcatcher idea, fwiw.
I haven't compared them to the Hawks, but I recently added a pair of Mani-2. The Manis are much better because they are mor precise, and they have better, deeper bass w/o a sub, but they did not cause me to become unsatisfied with the Sttafs - I move the Sttafs to room #2. |
Walkman - if this had been my first pair of Totems I may have been a little more irritated. Being the third, and that Totem has been bringing beautiful sound to my ears for the past 3+ years is why I assume I am so mellow about it? ;)
Baroque_lover - I am going to give the piano homes another listen... |
I say if you are not going to move up from the Forest you should look into the Sonus Faber lineup. |
Fascinating, but helluva story. Sorry for the legwork you had to do, it must have been quite annoying -- I can see why you'd not want to bother with the Forests, let alone any other speaker from the company, but you seem to be pretty mellow about it, and that's pretty gentlemanly of you. Good luck in your next speaker quest...
- walkman |
Jsbail/Walkman - Well, with my first pair of Forests, one of the wire coils inside of the speaker had broken free in shipping. While setting them up, I heard something 'clunking' around inside the cabinet. I took the binding post cover off and saw that the wire coil had broken free of the tie wraps that had been securing it. I was nervous that that coil may have bashed something else inside the speaker, so I never played them and easily exchanged them for another pair.
Then about a month or two later, while listening my left speaker started making a scratching noise on low bass notes. Upon further inspection it seemed as if the woofer was blown. I sent this back to have the woofer replaced - again easy to work with, just time without a speaker.
Speaker came back, sounded good. Now 3 weeks later, and it is now the right speaker in my system and that same scrathy noise is occuring, exactly as before. So, I am just tired of having to worry about it and going another direction.
Totem and my dealer have been great, just having this many things go wrong in such a short span of time has me soured on these speakers. I have previously owned Tabus and Arros for extended periods of time with no issues whatsoever!
Walkman - The Hawks never pulled me into the music that way other Totem speakers have - I'm not sure if it's the speaker, or just the systems synergy that I have heard them on???
Dwhitt - I am a fan of that Totem sound. I could go with another line. They also carry Krell speakers, but could acquire other lines for me as well. I have liked the SOnus Faber Grand Piano home in the past. And I just recently heard the Dali MS5 for the first time and loved it, but that is in a whole other price class!!! Any suggestions for other lines I should consider? I am a big fan of Totem and have always found them to 'stand out' in their respective price class.
Milpai/Rbstehno - I prefer a floor standing speaker to a monitor, but maybe I should investigate those suggestions as well???
Maybe I need to give the Hawks another shot??? |
if you need to stay in the totem line and you are suggesting a small room i would not go with the subs,etc. if you can go out of the totem line, do they offer anythingelse? |
I don't have any suggestions, but have some questions (!). What happened to your Forests that you had to replace them 3 times in six months? That seems like a lot. Also, how well did your I-5 drive the Forests (I have an I-5 and am considering Totem shopping, too). Finally, what did you prefer about the Sttafs relative to the Hawks in your prior demo's. thx, walkman |
I've owned a pair of trouble free Forest for about three years now and love them. I did however have some trouble with the pair of Totem Signature One's I had previous to the Forest. I'm interested in hearing in more detail what kind of trouble you experienced and Totem's response to your issues. |
What are the problems with the Forests? |
i have also owned many pairs of totems, arros, model 1's, and currently have a the mani 2's for my audio room and their in-walls for my den. it is a shame that the forests didn't work out for you. if you had a larger amp, i would recommend the mani's. with your i-5, i would try the hawks or a pair of model 1's with either the lightning or a rel strata III amp. good luck. |
Jh2os,
If you are anyways going to use 2 Dreamcatcher subwoofer, why not go for the Rainmakers?
I have auditioned to the Rainmakers and Hawks, but not the Sttaf. The dealer was using the NAD pre/power combo to drive the Hawks and I thought they were very nice sounding speakers than the others I had auditioned till that date. The Rainmakers were being driven by NAD C352 and were pretty neat sounding. Small footprint but large/musical sound. |
