Request advice-need "brighter" speakers than Totem Hawks

Have you at least called your dealer yet?  They should be very willing to help and provide info on this.  They should also be offering to bring speakers to you or vice versa since you're clearly not happy and you bought the speakers from them. 

I listened a lot to the Hawks and loved them for the price and size of them.  Now, for the price, which is even less than the Hawk, you may want to consider Tekton.  They just came out with a couple of new speakers.  The Pendragon's totally outperform B&W, Golden Ear and Triangle.  I have not heard Thiel

I have had the Hawks for 10 years. Run them with a Simaudio I5. Have you tried Nordost Blue Heaven or above cables? To me they are too bright with the Hawks, but with your high frequency hearing loss they might do the trick. 

So far, it still seems like a problem with the crossover connection. How are you wiring the top binding posts to the bottom?

You mention that your room is pretty dead, heavy curtains and carpeting can and do suck up high frequencies. Just walk over to area behind your speakers and talk, see what happens to your voice. Then change your speaker cables to Radio Shack Mega Cable, $35/50ft roll.

david

B - See if this is useful...

http://www.audiocheck.net/index.php

i listened to Totem Element fire recently and found them sweet but kind of laid back and dull. Not to my taste, certainly for $6k.
I have Monitor Audio Gold 50, which have a remarkable treble, and fit the bright, fast, light mold. 
You also might listen to Aerial, and for the new Beryllium tweeter, the new Paradigm Personal line.

Thiel 3,7s?

A quick Thanks for the continuing advising. I am planning to implement the next measures sometime this week. Since I'm a public school teacher, work beckons heavily this week as my semester winds down. Thanks again to All, and I will post replies to various advice this week, too. 

Hoping to work through at least several more of the action items soon. 
-B

I'm not familiar with your amp or speakers but curiosity led me to a review of the W-5 in which they note a slight roll off of higher treble - wondering if gradual hearing loss, maybe older caps, etc., all conspiring together? Thinking amp could just need a little tuning with caps.

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/simaudio_w5.htm

Having enjoyed the Hawks myself I had more issues with the bass reproduction than I did the high end - though I hasten to add that I still think they were remarkably good overall. 

Perhaps unfairly I was comparing them to my Thiel CS3.5's which, to my ear and budget, are easily the best speakers overall.  The Hawks are about $3200 retail now,  used Thiels about 1/3 of that and worth much more. If you can find a pair locally I'd scarf them up. They excel in the mids and highs and leave nothing wanting in the bsss. They have become my reference speakers. 

You certainly have enough current to consider many brands. Used Thiels are a true audio bargain. 

I've owned all the gear you have owned including the cables.  The Marantz is warm component.  I don't like the sound you are after but try another source.  Ayre might work well or Simaudio, Luxman would be warmer but more accurate than Marantz.  

I have a Verity Parsifal speaker with Luxman 590 AX and Ayre DAC with upper end Nordost cables.  I've been out of the loop for five years.  Not interested for another ten.  Merry Christmas!

I don’t think Totem’s specifications for break in have been mentioned, though I only scanned this thread. It doesn’t appear as if the salesperson mentioned this, but the Hawks needed 60-80 hours at moderate volumes.

I did a little searching, but can’t find what the OP’s cables sound qualities are as to warm or more open. Ditto with Sim Audio, but both are obviously good quality stuff. I had a pair of Dreamcatchers, and these Totems were the most responsive to cabling changes that I have ever experienced. I see that the OP has tried cable changes though.

What I’m wondering, is if the cables and the electronics are on the warm side of the sound spectrum. If they both are, then the combination would no doubt muffle the speaker output as the OP is experiencing. Can anybody chime in on Sim Audio and the Audience AU24SE?

"Can anybody chime in on Sim Audio and the Audience AU24SE?"

This has been mentioned. Both the amp and cables have a laid back presentation with smooth highs.

(Can anybody chime in on Sim Audio and the Audience AU24SE?)

This has been mentioned. Both the amp and cables have a laid back presentation with smooth highs.

If you want bright then listen the the B&W 805 diamonds.  You'll be reaching to find the volume soon enough.  I prefer a Speaker that tries to imitate live music rather than a speaker that tries to impress your friends with it's clicky hi hat sounds that distract from the vocals.

I'll second the shout for Monitor Audio.  Until recently I had some RS6 floorstanders.  They are great at dynamics, plenty bright and have great bass.  Here in the UK you can pick them up for about £300 second hand and should have no problem selling them on again for the same.

My other suggestion is ATC.  More expensive and the passive models need at least 200W imo but they're used in the studios of many of the people who make the music we listen to and are certainly crystal clear.

Updates coming soon on results of suggestions I plan to implement this weekend! Stay Tuned. Thank you all for the advising to date. There remains a lot to think about, but my experiences with room conditioning and cabling (having now messed around extensively with both those variables) is that the main issue lies with the amp or the speakers, with a slight chance that the source is not giving a good signal (Marantz SACD8005). Again, my gratitude for the excellent reflections and suggestions received to date. Report on latest trials coming very soon!
-B

In case you missed my question, how are the upper and lower binding posts connected? You said that you weren't using the stock brass jumpers.

New and engaging news:
But first...
Lowrider: I have used the stock brass connectors for bridging the speaker inputs on the hawks. I mislaid them, as previously noted (keeping my eye open, though). I have thus also tried some simple 12GA OFC jumpers, some shotgunned higher-end OFC (in both cases bare wires). I am presently using the 6" jumpers (Level 3) provided by Anti-Cables, which I like because they appear to radically reduce any chance of a short (spades), which I am paranoid about with the bare wires (stranded). Note that I have detected no differences in sound across ANY of the jumpers except that the non-stock ones I mentioned above all sound a little bit better than the stock brass plates provided. I tentatively plan to stay with the anti-cable jumpers. They are also really solid. Note: I remain convinced that the upper inputs give me a slight (ever so slight) edge on the high end over the other three possible combinations (bottom inputs, 2 diagonals). These differences of which I speak are not the types of differences that offset the deficit in high freq. output that I have been describing. 

Here's the Really Interesting News:
I switched the speaker wire channels at the amp. The problem with few highs stayed with the left speaker. Reminder: I think the highs are muted on both sides, but they are close to inaudible on the left. 

I was thinking it was the amp (Moon Audio W-5) and am kind of relieved it appears not to be that item. I still plan to swap in the Creek 100a for the P-5/W-5 and have a listen for confirmation of my impressions.

Anyone have any thoughts? I am thinking I need to take the pair of speakers in to repair service and ask a pro to determine if the tweeter or crossover is bad, at least on the left.

Thanks.

Another +vote for Thiel loudspeakers, if you so desire to switch out for the Totem.  Speaker repair is another option, if you want to keep the Totem.

Keep me posted & Happy Listening!

 Before you buy any new components, take your speakers back to the dealer and have them checked. Call first.

Further update:
Today I schlepped the Hawks to my friendly neighborhood hi-end dealer, Hermary’s in San Carlos, CA, where they hooked them up to a system comprised of a nice Parasound pre and a Mackintosh 1520 power amp (yum). Source was a recent PS Audio server providing WAV and FLAC files.

Surprise! The speakers sounded fine. No differences in high freq. response between speakers, even switching channels. The Hawks sounded like many of you gentle experts have suggested that they should sound--rather amazing, with no issues on the high end. Even a slight tendency towards brightness without harshness--so cool, to hear them as they are supposed to sound. That’s the good news. The bad news is my amp, pre-amp, or CDP are now suspect. I am thinking I may take the power amp in for work/diagnosis first, and would like the advice of you, the cognoscenti, on this matter. Thank you in advance for any pearls of wisdom you may wish to offer.
B

Try this quick experiment. Sit and listen with a pair of hard bound books. Remember those? :) Otherwise LP covers will work. Lift them up about a foot from your head to either side, so that they form a 45 degree angleto your ears and the speakers.

Does this fix your problem? If so your room may be too well damped, especially to the sides and behind your listening location.

Other cheap fixes include replacing any interconnect with plain-jane cheap RCA cables.

One thing I wonder about is the impedance of the speakers. I can't find a curve to answer but there's an interesting discussion here:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/928498-totem-acoustic-owner-s-thread-16.html

It is possible that there's something in the crossover design that makes them difficult to drive. Not sure why, should be a very straightforward design unless there was a lot of EQ added. The fix for this type of issue is a beefier amp.

Best,


Erik

Try some Paradigm Signature's with beryllium tweeters. 

Hey Erik (et al): 
Some updates. First for Erik, Hawks have 6 ohm impedance, FWIW. I have not encountered an amp that had trouble pushing a lot of sound through them, though SQ is another issue. 

Quickie recap: In our last episode, I took the Hawks to Hermary's (local dealer) and tested them on a McIntosh Power Amp/Paradign Pre setup. Source was a high-end Audio server. Sounded great. I've now swapped out the Sim Audio Moon P-5/W-5 for my Creek 100a, and the sound is better, but ONLY because (IMHO) the Creek has tone controls, with which I have been pushing the treble way up (setting of 6-9/10). But it sounds good. Current cables are Audience AU24SE (ICs) and Audio Art SC-5SE(R) on speakers. I tried some anti-cables, and retain them as the bridging conductors between speaker posts (well-designed design for that). 

Insights/Action/Questions:
(1) My hearing is worse than I thought. Specifically, owing to the geometry of my setup, for near field listening (including a process per Erik's suggestion above) I was using my left ear on the right-speaker and right ear of the left-speaker. Oops. I have major high frequency hearing loss in my right ear (now that I stop to seriously listen for that). I was diagnosing the left speaker incorrectly. I switched to listening near-field with only my left ear, and things improved some. Not sure what action item this portends, except I am toying with getting a "Hear One" device for use in-ear. I'm mostly interested in that for use as an inexpensive hearing assist-device (in my classes), so I'm far from counting on this to make a difference in music listening. 

(2) The Moon P-5/W-5, while truly a pleasure to operate, and possessed of stunning aesthetics (IMHO), has a couple issues--notably (in my specific case) no tone controls, which I apparently need. Also, from an audiophile perspective, the bass (my low- and mid- freq, hearing is fine) was "too extended" in the Moon + Hawks setup. The Moon pre/amp put out a bit more than the hawks could readily resolve--seriously low frequencies--well beyond the (admittedly brilliant) ability of the Hawks smallish drivers. This resulted in slightly "loose, boomy" bass at times, depending on the recording. The Creek amp, solved this issue (speculation: by simply not going there as powerfully on the lowest frequencies). The result: audibly tighter bass. Still plenty of low-low frequencies, too. 

(3) The system I heard at Hermary's listening space was driven by an expensive (>$5k, I suspect) server. I got the brand wrong--not PS Audio, so that remains a mystery for now--sorry about that. The point: the source was top-notch, far above the Marantz SA 8005SACD I'm using. Even with a modded Eastern Electric DAC (discrete Op Amps in for ICs, pulled out tube) the Marantz is simply not as good as that server pushing out FLACs and WAVs. Having the Parasound pre and the McIntosh Amp in the loop could not hurt either. I am wondering now about the quality of my source material (CDs) and the Marantz SACD 8005. 

(4) Actions Items (planned and prospective):
-I'll take the Moon W-5 (power amp) in for service--I have a couple minor issues that need attention (loose speaker binding post, intermittent power LED). I'll have the service guy go over the whole unit. Everyone I talked to, however, told me power amp problems are generally much more "catastrophic" by nature--subtler issues like "muted highs" are not on people's radar for this type of gear. 

-My wife (whom I adore) has said I can have a belated Xmas gift of a component of my choice. If I sell the Moon Pre- and Power-amps, I'll have plenty of $ to get something that hopefully meets my needs better. Having spent an inordinate amount of time validating the speakers, I wonder where I might turn next. Open to constructive suggestions. Let's keep single component cost at $5500 or less, please. Less is more ;-).

-Having, in the course of this exploration, done a whole bunch of cable-swapping (anti-cable/Audience/Audio Art/Better cable/vintage Monster M-Sigma 2000/others) I now firmly believe that once one has decent quality cable in the system, differences are absolutely minimal. My not so subtle way of saying I am done exploring cables for now. I'm thinking (from the visit to the dealer) of looking at a used McIntosh power or integrated amp. Other ideas (including replacing the CDP) are welcome. I'm quite open to new or used top-quality gear--there's a lot of McIntosh available out there--it's confusing, actually. Thank you all for your thoughts. 
-B

Not a component recommendation, but try substituting an IC with extended highs. Your Audience ICs have smooth and laid-back sonics. This is not the fix you are looking for, but with new components, you may get more high frequency detail.

Well don’t fully self diagnose yourself yet!

I had that problem and it turned out to be wax build up so serious it required a technician. I switched to using a lotion soap, and thoroughly washing and rinsing with the shower head which has prevented recurrence.

Point is, make sure you have what you think you have. Talk to a doctor and get examined first.

Best,

Erik

Lowrider: I'll try that idea on the ICs, but not too optimistic. Already attempted a couple variations along those lines, with little result, but I'll dig deeper into my cables (BJC or Better Cables or old vintage Monster seem likely candidates). Stay tuned for a report. 

Erik: Thanks for the insights. After 45+ years of playing percussion, and several visits to the audiologist, my knowledge of my condition is as stated above. When playing, I now religiously use hearing protection (isolating Shure ear buds, currently). I run them thru a multi-output pro headphone amp (presonus) with volume controls for each output. I try to keep the levels reasonable when playing with my combo in-studio, and I use more mundane ear plugs for live gigs. This all helps, but the damage to right side hi freq. is real. 

All: I think much of my issue is reflected by the tension between seeking neutrality in the gear, and needing brighter highs given my story. Put differently, and more usefully, I wanted to avoid listening fatigue, which I get from overly harsh highs, so I overcompensated (a lot) by inappropriately combining gear that ALL boasted "laid-back sonics," per Lowrider's comment on cables. In my case, the Sim Audio, Marantz, Audience, and even the Totem Hawks (though less so) combined to over-soften my highs. The result has been muted highs that are a particularly poor fit to my personal situation. Please comment. 

Other miscellaneous news:
(1) Took the Moon W-5 in for service today. It needed a couple minor fixes anyway. The senior tech was deeply skeptical of the high freq. issue residing in the amp, as I previously noted in an earlier post, though he admitted a messed up capacitor could conceivably play a role. 
(2) Room conditioning fans: I added bass traps to the corner nearest to and opposite the speakers. So far, some minor differences are apparent (better clarity at the low end, but it's pretty subtle). I need to listen more extensively following this tweak. No effect on highs detected so far. I used 72" of cloth covered medium density foam cylinder.  Actually looks ok. 

Thanks to to all for hanging in there with me on this issue. 
-B 

bheiman

Thinking about your situation and taking into account your hearing loss. It seems like so many times when people are looking for a sub woofer, meaning more bass, what they are really missing is a great midrange. I am wondering if you are seeking highs because your midrange isn't moving you emotionally. Perhaps your system isn't engaging. 

I had a pair of Hawks myself and while I found the mids and highs to be commendable it was the bass that I found to be somewhat "rounder" than I appreciate.  Mind you this is in comparison to Thiel CS3.5's which some people regard as being too bright. 

If if you can find a pair of CS2.3 or higher methinks your issue with the Hawks will be remedied. Used, they're bargains of the highest order, too.  Good luck!

Hi, it sounds like you already made a choice but I wanted to chime in on the Dali Royal Tower you asked about.   I have had mine for about 9 years, they still put a smile on my face. 

They are absolutely beautiful with acoustic instruments and vocals,  excellent imaging and sound staging.  Transparent is a good word, warm is another.  The silk doom tweeter sold me immediately compared to many metal dome loaded speakers I heard.   I am constantly amazed about the amount and quality of the sound for such a small little speaker.   To this day I have moments they still raise my eyebrows and make me shake my head at how good they sound.  Frequently I will have experiences where the presence of the voice coming from the room with the stereo is so vivid it's startling.  I half expect to walk in the room and see someone sitting there.   Maybe many speakers do this I don't know, but I can't see why anyone would need anything more if that is the type of listening you do.   I listened to a lot of speakers at every price point at the Rocky Mountain Audio Show around the same time.  For the price it was a no brainer. Wonderful speaker.  

 I am a bit of a rocker, and if I had to nit pick, it would be the mid range punch of electric guitars.   The low end frequency response is conservative, some may feel the need for a sub, I have an EQ on my amp and can dial in all the bass I need.   Even though they are not ideal for most of my music collection, they are so pleasing otherwise I will never part with them.   

I run them with a Rega Apollo and Mcintosh MA6900 integrated.  

Good luck in your journey!  

Zamdrang:
Thank you for weighing in on the Dali Royal Towers. I was initially engaged by them because of their highly refined look, having never had a chance to listen to them. I have also had difficulty finding reviews online because they are getting pretty "vintage" as far as their age goes. I really appreciate your thoughts, and indeed, may act on them. 

Update for others following this thread: 
Having switched to near field listening while doing tests, and using only my left (undamaged) ear consistently from speaker-to-speaker, I am perceiving that the highs are coming through, and maybe

1. I am not listening to good sources (music CDs and CDP), which accounts for a lack of clear highs,
   
2. The combination of Simaudio Moon P-5/W-5 and Hawks may be over-softening my high frequencies too much for my particular needs,
   
3. Swapping in the Creek Evo 100a has some effect in the direction I need, but having to crank the treble all the way (or nearly so) doesn't seem to be a very "audiophile" solution, and I still miss some highs. 
   

This has led me to contemplate the following possible actions (I am thinking to implement 1 or 2 of these ideas, not all three--costs are a factor. :

(a) switching to different speakers (as noted above the Dalis come to mind, or the  Thiels which a number of you kind people have mentioned as likely able to meet my needs,

(b) switching to a brighter amp/pre-amp combo. My experience with the Creek has led me to believe that the integrated amp market has come a very long way in a good direction since I switched to all separates, 

(c) getting into a better source (a disc player with music server capabilities, for example. Any suggestions along those lines would be most welcome. I am a total noob (as my kids say) in this realm of gear. I am especially interested in hearing about gear that delivers top caliber sound quality without breaking the bank. I am aware that music servers tend to be expensive.  I have a dedicated MacBook Air (2011 vintage) available, if that helps. 

Thanks again to all who have advised me on this issue. I hope to hear from you on these questions. 
Best,
-Bruce

The issue for you is that a high-end digital source will reproduce music faithfully. That means an accurate presentation of how the music was recorded. It will not provide you with more highs, and if the highs are more extended they should sound more refined than an ordinary CDP.

Thiel seem like a possibility for you, but I think i read that they are redesigning their speaker line, not sure.

So, Lowrider: point taken. 

Maybe I should be asking
"what's a great integrated amp or pre-amp with 'wonderful' tone controls?"

B 

Update:
So, I had the amp (Sim Audio Moon W-5) maintained, diagnosed by some pro techs. There were some minor fixes, but nothing major wrong. The tech commented he had rarely seen such a well-built power amp. Sonically, his work translated to a minor improvement, but nothing along the lines of what I had been looking for. I subsequently found a couple of good buys on equalizers on eBay, and went for it (lots cheaper than a McIntosh pre/amp solution). I ended up with a dbx 1231 graphic eq, and an Ashly PQ-26 parametric. Both are pro-level gear (studio). The dbx arrived first, and it clearly made a difference, but the difference I got was an improvement, but not understated/subtle/natural sounding. Some harshness/fatigue/artificiality was present. Still, I considered this a promising step forward.

The Ashly PQ-26 was another story--significant differences were possible without incuring harshness or over-brightness. Wow. I still need to get the parametric eq dialed In a bit, and I wish it had "shelf" settings, but again, wow. Natural-sounding improvements are the hallmarks of a good parametric, and the Ashly did not disappoint. I put the Ashly between the power amp and the pre. It’s amazing. Recordings of music I love, but which have serious sonic quality issues were improved greatly. I’m really getting what I have been seeking at this point. I’ll either sell the graphic eq, or put it into another system in a different room. The Ashly is a keeper. Ran as much of the cabling as possible through balanced cables (Audience 24se and totem). I am deeply pleased with results so far. The Hawk speakers are responding beautifully.

Before trying the eq approach I read a bunch of cogent threads, so I established preferences before buying. My insights:

1. Eq is ok for meeting my particular needs--some hi Freq. hearing loss, and the quality and nature of my many recordings (CDs) have huge variation, suggesting some eq may be appropriate at times, and the Ashly has hardware bypass for purists.

2. For any eq gear intended for audiophile use, choose pro (studio) gear over consumer-grade gear. The I/O options are different (1/4" TRS instead of rca), but the balanced (XLR) option provides wonderful sound.

3. Parametric eq gives more control and has far less of a negative impact on fidelity vs graphic eq.

4. Though I thought about "tuning the room" with the eq, I decided to go with my ears over quantitative analysis via an RTA. RTAs give you a balanced/flat sound at one point: where you put the mic. I often listen from several spots in the room, so the RTA route made little sense (there seems to be some consensus in the forums on this--I agree strongly). The Hawks are also designed to be good for listening from multiple positions in the listening space, from what I’ve read.

5. I spent a lot of time on cabling, using swapped cables as expensive tone controls. Mistake. I needed to achieve big differences in hi freq. sound, and an eq gave me what I needed to achieve this, surprisingly, without destroying the quality of the listening experience, for example, by introducing harshness, overly bright highs, or quick-onset listening fatigue. Cool.

Thanks again to to all who advised me on this issue. Please feel free to comment/reflect on this development.
BH

Smart move on your part. Now you can begin to rediscover your music.

What are the settings you use on the parametric.  It would be useful info.

@onhwy61 
Sorry for the massively delayed response. 
A couple caveats before I reply to your request:
1. I tuned the EQ to work with my ears (lots of high frequency hearing loss). YMMV.
2. So these settings may be best for someone with similar issues. They are not good settings for people with no high frequency hearing issues. 
3. I was wrong: in a previous post I mentioned that the Ashly had no "shelf" functionality. Oops. I have shelf settings, which happen to be very useful. They are included below.
4. I adjusted both channels identically (L/R).
5. The settings given are for my "average" listening experience. Really shrill CDs, for example, have necessitated different settings in the highs (much less gain). 
6. I have had good luck with these settings on an SACD I tried (classical), but the vast majority of my listening is to redbook CDs, which are also vastly improved.
7. The bypass functions are really nice, but the cables are still going through an extra box, which noticeably degraded the "bypass all" signal compared to no EQ box in the signal path. I put the EQ box in between the pre- and power amps.
8. Since the Ashly is pro-gear, I used all balanced cables in the hookup of the EQ.
9. It took a few days of messing around to get the settings dialed in. There is a lot of personal preference involved.

Ashly PQ-26 Parametric EQ settings for a person with hearing loss in the high frequency range:

Master volume: -3db (gives me some headroom). 

Shelf-low:  60hz, +5db (no Q adjustment)

16-800hz: 16hz, +3db, Q=1 octave

50hz-2.4khz: 1.6Khz, +6db, Q=1.5 octaves

160hz-8Khz: 500hz, +3db, Q=3 octaves

500hz-24Khz: 24Khz, +15db, Q=3 octaves

Shelf-High: 14.5 Khz, +12db (no Q adjustment)

"Shelf" refers to setting a constant horizontal line starting at a particular frequency and gain, with no Q (for High Shelf all frequencies above the set freq. are increased/decreased by the amount of gain set--there's no "curve" or bandwidth envelope. Great feature, especially for my needs. 

I tried not to mess too much with the mids, because they were OK to begin with, but that wasn't the case once I started tweaking the low and high frequencies--a lot of presence and soundstage went away. The highest gains are set for higher frequencies to deal with my hearing. The bump to the bass is likely not necessary (certainly not needed for my hearing impairment) but when I tried it, the music sounded more lively, and I could hear the "attack" much more crisply in the lows. On the highs, you would think that setting the shelf up the way I have it would make the fully parametric setting (500hz-24Khz adjustment) redundant, but since I have bypass switches for every frequency adjustment (a great feature), I tested the combinations of these high freq. settings, and having both engaged gave the best results. 

Hope this is interesting to some.
Best,
-B
Other gear: Marantz SACD 8005, Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC (set on Solid State and modded--tube removed, nice op amps swapped in instead of ICs), Simaudio Moon P-5 Pre-Amp, Simaudio Moon W-5 Power Amp, Totem Hawk Speakers. Audience Au24SE cables throughout. 

Thanks for the response.