Sabrina X Anyone Add Subwoofer(s)

I’ve been listening to the Sabrina Xs and two s/812s. I tried many combinations and discovered that I must keep the crossover at 20-25 and REL volume low, or the Sabrina Xs lose some of their clarity. That said, the RELs improve many recordings. With some recordings, such as the Analog Productions 45RPM reissue of the Door’s L.A. Woman , they transform the music.

Great choice..let us know how your new toys workout in your system...

I’m replacing them by the Magico S5 mkii

I went to the dealer to listen to the Rossini DAC to add to my system and ended up getting the speakers I demoed the DAC with.

The Sabrina is a great speaker, but the soundstage and imaging of the Magico is off the charts. It’s almost double the price but the Mágicos “disappear” way better than Wilsons I think and that’s what I am looking for at the moment.

 

 

 By the way I am letting my pair of SabrinasX go, less than 1 year old. If anyone is interested

That begs the question, what speakers will take their place?

I've added the S/812 to my SabrinaX driven by the Gryphon Diablo 300 and as another user said, it just adds so much more than bass. I think the changes in soundstage are the most satisfying ones. Any speaker in any price range can benefit from that, given that the room has proper treatment / measurement / acoustics.

 By the way I am letting my pair of SabrinasX go, less than 1 year old. If anyone is interested, here's the link. 

Once you get the 812’s dialed in, you will have an excellent sounding setup. Subs aren’t that hard to set up if you do it properly, especially REL’s. Your room WILL be a factor though, and treatments would be prudent.

My curiosity was in directly comparing a $9K REL Studio III with two processing subwoofers at a little more than half the price.

Enjoy    

How many here have suggested listening to your new speakers first?

Excellent advice, but after listening to the MA12000 driving the Sabrina X, I decided that I did not want to alter what seemed to me to be an extraordinary speaker. They also had all but the last octave of base, so I looked for a fast subwoofer that was known for their high level inputs. Available funds made the S/812 my compromise choice. Moving into the reference series increased cost and limited availability.  I'm now curious to listen to the difference with the subs on vs off.

How many here have suggested listening to your new speakers first?

If you didn't hear any break up distortion in the Wilson's bass region with your amplifier driving them there is no need for high pass filtering which is usually included in many subwoofers.

I'm told you can demo SVS subwoofers for free.

 

Sabrina X still back ordered, but managed to add a Technics 1200G turntable, Sutherland 20/20 & LPS and a pair of REL s/812s.  Working on power outlets, cable and acoustic room treatment.  I didn't want the expense of adding a high pass filter and I don't want to change anything about the Sabrina X.  I'll crossover the RELs in the 30-40 hz range..but we will see how this all fits.  Right now I'm using early 1990's $950 small monitors..

Sadly I don’t know of many subs that have good built in crossovers. wilson audio makes an external one but it is $5k. Their new subs are built in. The JL E-lines is fine as in no loss of detail but super noisy and raises the noise floor. JL-audio and Bryston make good ones “cheaper”. There are lots of cheap options but I don’t know the quality. I have tried my JLs (system pictures under my profile) with and without the crossovers many times. There is really no comparison. The crossover is much better in spite  of the increased noise. 
 

Anyway on the MA12000 you can add an external if it doesn’t have internal bass management (I don’t think it does). On the back there are two bars that bind the preamp section to the amp section. You can pull those bars out and insert the crossover there. So it would be out from the “pre” into the crossover then back into the amp input. 
 

review of the cr-1 here. 
 

https://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/equipment-menu/537-jl-audio-cr-1-active-subwoofer-crossover

What integrated did you get?  

McIntosh MA12000

If you don’t want to add a highpass crossover (hard with some integrated amps) I would pass on the subs. It will be a phasy mess without one. 

What subs have great electronic crossovers?

 

If you're talking good 2 channel well then I'd have to disagree. 

That’s cool.  How boring would this site be if everyone agreed all the time?

I'm really not looking for more base as much as more authority and clarity.

Well, you’re going to get much more than that.  You’ll find your entire Soundstage will expand in all directions and imaging will improve along with a better sense of air and space.  Then, if you turn the subs off the whole thing collapse and you’ll trip over yourself to turn them back on.  Anyway, that’s my experience in addition to a more solid foundation, authority, and solidity.  

vonhelmholtz,

 

What integrated did you get? 
 

If you don’t want to add a highpass crossover (hard with some integrated amps) I would pass on the subs. It will be a phasy mess without one. 
 

Rather than subs making it a little better it will make it a little worse but the crossover will open up lots of tuning options for over all better sound. 

Soix you're painting things with a pretty broad brush.  If you talking home theater then I'd have a tendency to agree.  If you're talking good 2 channel well then I'd have to disagree.  And I've owned some pretty good systems (with and without subs) and heard some of the finest (with and without subs) :-)

OP,

 

+1 wait +1 two subs if you decide to go with subs. 

Lots of great information.  I now believe that two subs are best.  I also agree that I should wait to see if I need to go that far.  I'm really not looking for more base as much as more authority and clarity.  I really don't want a high pass filter.  I bought an integrated amp to simplify things and I assume that Wilson put a lot of work into the speaker's internal crossover.  I don't want to interfere with all of that, so I'm guessing that a 35-40hz crossover and a steep slope.

The reason to high pass main speakers is to keep them from messing up the bass if they are messing up the bass. I begrudgingly bought a crossover one only to solve that issue. The phase control on JL audio subs is set at 80Hz, which is their preferred low pass crossover setting. Smart to be aided by a dealer although you may want to clarify what their process is in helping you set them up. I highly recommend measurement software like REW. The Sabrinas are charming speakers, best of luck.

Yeah the Sabrina with two of Wilson’s new subs would be amazing. They have proper built in highpass crossovers. I would put it up against any of their speakers. Just in concept anyway. 
 

In reality the only difference between the smaller abs larger speakers is low bass output. Sure there are other difference but… not really. 

If you are considering spending $5k on a sub that suggests that you could have afforded the Yvette that has a 10" woofer that goes down to 20hz. With the right amplifier probably solid state power, that drives a difficult load 86db and 4ohms, I would hope if you can't get enough bass out of them then there is something fundamentally wrong.

No.  Subs are much more than just getting “enough bass,” and your statement indicates you’ve never heard a good system with properly integrated subs.  Too bad because there’s much more to it than just more bass.  I’d take the Sabrina X and two good subs over the Yvette any day.  Once you hear what subs can add to a system you won’t go back to listening without them. 

If you are considering spending $5k on a sub that suggests that you could have afforded the Yvette that has a 10" woofer that goes down to 20hz. With the right amplifier probably solid state power, that drives a difficult load 86db and 4ohms, I would hope if you can't get enough bass out of them then there is something fundamentally wrong.

I think well integrated subs improve most any speaker. A few exceptions for sure. But as others have suggested might be best to get them in your house and see what you think and go from there.

The first thing is to work out what the problem is. I have a quite small listening room 4.5 x 3.2 metres. Bass control is my issue not lack of bass, the walls shake and items on walls rattle even at moderate volumes. Adding 2 subwoofers has allowed me to even out the bass response whilst using a miniDSP to correct for room modes. The difference is startling. It also enables be to restrict the bass output of my tube hybrid power amp. This works in class A up to 10 watts, removing bass from the amp and speakers below 60Hz means I'm always in class A. 

Let your dealer guide you.  If you're using a reputable Wilson dealer they will tell you what you need.  But what's the hurry? Are they giving you a discount if you buy them together?  Try without first.  You might be pleasantly surprised.

Rel and Wilson make a great combination.  Have a pair of S812"s with my Alexia's.  Rel has a unique set up which makes integrating them into your system much simpler.  I had my dealer install my pair when my Wilson's were delivered and set up.  Will be the best $5-$6K spent.

Don’t buy the JL E112s. I have two and both have broken a number of times. Using their internal highpass crossover adds a lot of electrical noise to the system (buzz/hum).  I will replace mine with a different brand sooner than later. 
 

Running subs under your speakers without a highpass crossover will make your system worse. the timing will never be right. 
 

Running subs with a proper highpass will take them to a new level. The JL CR-1 would do the trick. Add any quality sub at that point. 
 

based on the measurements the Sabrina needs subs unless you are placing them less than 3’ from the front wall based of the -10db point and room gain. 

The Sabrina X has very solid bass Thst is pretty close to full range.

my brother had them in his Big room with 2 JL Audio  Fathom 12 with built in room correction. He sold them this past year for the Shasha Daw to full his very large room , but the Sabrina X lacked very little ,in most rooms allthe speaker you would need without subs IMO.

I was going to buy from and have installed by the folks that are setting up the Wilson's.  That is why I posted prior to speaker installation.

I want to feed the subs setting the lower crossover point, but I don't intend on having the Wilson's fed by the subs upper crossover.  I would think that this would cause a bit of a peak at the lower end served by the Wilsons and the subs.

Believe you me. Start with a proper eval of your room by a specialist. Best 500 you will ever spend. ANYWAY you will need to do that if you want the smallest chance to integrate your subs. 1) Room measurements 2) Apply treatment 3) Add subs - yes, 2, not 1 I have Magicos. Subs are game changer. I learned that a while ago. I have two JL Audio S/510.

Here ya go. This can help integrate dual subs, and at only $400 used it’s $600 less than buying new...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124769802826

Here’s Kal’s review just FYI...

https://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-57

Two E-Sub E112s seem like a better approach than one Fathom.  In theory it moves more air.  I would lose balanced inputs and automatic calibration.

I wish that I could use my Anthem ARC to measure the room.  I'll have to look into this.

A subwoofer can certainly improve clarity by using them to smooth frequency response. I would highly suggest room measurements to better define your issue before going further. Measurements are an efficient and accurate way to improve listening experience when it comes to bass. The implementation is going to be more important than the model, but there are obviously different approaches between subwoofer brands. REL and JL are very different as reflected in their setup tips and feature sets. Obviously the use of multiple subs gives the opportunity for both increased output frequency smoothing by way phase adjustment. I will say though, that the DARO feature on the Fathom line is powerful and worth consideration. I have a pair of them, and DARO kind of takes the challenge out of finding the perfect spot. With my RELs, there was more placement adjustment between them and my main speakers. I owned the S510s which proved not an ideal output match with my speakers, despite the REL site recommending the T/9. This isn’t against the S510s, I just find the REL suggestions less than perfect.

 

Smaller subs .. Do you have specific speakers in mind?

Well, an easy solution would be a pair of JL Labs smaller subs like the E-Sub E112s that’ll still get you down to an honest 22Hz and cost $4600 for both. There’s also the excellent Rhythmic F12PEQ that would also cost around $5k for a pair, and obviously Rel is another viable option depending on your preferred sub connection type. In any case, I’d highly recommend doing any of these options over buying one $5k sub. Hope this helps, and best of luck.

If going with REL, these are the recommendations for Wilson Sabrina on their Web page calculator.

 

Small room :  S/510

 

Medium room : S/812

Smaller subs .. Do you have specific speakers in mind?

For example REL suggest their S/812 as a mono sub, or S/510 as a dual.  The smaller T9x doesn't have the low end extension needed.  My dealer carries the 12" Fathom v2, but at $5k it would be a single sub in my system.

Wilson uses their subs with the Alexandrias, so what does that tell you?  My advice, get two smaller subs — you’ll get much better performance.  

IMO and based on my experience with the original Sabrina, I would wait, get them in and give them few hundreds hours of break in time. If possible have your dealer set the speakers up for you if they’re trained to do so by Wilson Audio. If your room isn’t acoustically optimized you might want to consider getting that done. Subwoofer would be the last thing to worry about. These speakers have pretty good bass on their own plus properly integrating a sub is usually a PIA. 

First, all of my listening has been done at the dealer with the same amplifier that I use in my listening room.  My Wilson's are about one month out.  Since this speaker is an entry level product for Wilson, I was interested to see what happened to the impact and clarity of this speaker with a subwoofer.  My dealer sells the JL Audio Fathom 12" v2 and for another $5000 and tax I can upgrade, but I'm wondering why I've not read about using a subwoofer with the Sabrina X.  

Are they lacking bass or you’re just looking to fill in on the lower end?