I just got mine Back from audio com uk.in two days the
diferance is day and night.they put a Referance clock in
and stuffed the dacs with Black gates and the power surply
i am having more done soon. |
Richard Kern has just emailed me that the Audiomod.com parts for the XA777ES are arriving very soon. I've opted for the whole treatment, including Richard's analogue stage mods and the superclock.
With respect to the performance of the stock XA777ES, I've been reluctant to report on the Sony after my original review, as the XA never really had a chance to settle in -- mostly my fault: I changed the preamp to the six-channel TAP9000es in order to accommodate my DVD-A player, and then I changed many of the cables to Stealth PGS and A/B'd with the Cardas Golden Ref. All this, right around 300 hours -- so any review vs. my fully broken-in SCD-1 would have been highly subjective and probably misleading. Hence my silence over the past month or so.
I did however decide to sell my SCD-1 last week, as I felt the XA777Es was close to the two channel SACD performance of the SCD-1, the XA had the multichannel advantage, and clearly the XA had better Redbook. But even using the word "better" is subjective: the sonic signatures were quite different and some may actually prefer the darker, more clinical sound of Redbook on the SCD-1 to the smooth, rounded sonic signature of the XA, depending on system synergy, et al.
As I was able to sell the SCD-1 for $2750 (just $100 less than what Oade will sell you a new SCD-1 for), I can always go back to the big Sony classic without taking a financial bath -- the SCD-1 was a marvel of quality, and I do miss that 10-second sliding top cover orchestra.
To quash those rumors that the XA777 might be better on 2-channel SACD than the SCD-1; in my opinion, it was not -- the slight edge went to the SCD-1, although my XA was never really broken/settled-in to do a real head-to-head. All in all, I am inconclusive as to whether or not the XA's newer technology outweighs the SCD-1's build quality in terms of sonic benefits on SACD -- time will tell.
To sum, both are excellent values, with parallel sonic signatures on two channel SACD, but are totally different sounding when you drop in your favorite Redbook disc. But, neither was a good as an Audio Aero Capitole -- my "reference" for Redbook -- nor should they be, given the street price difference.
Now back to the audiomod.com mods for the XA777es: Hopefully, the audiomod.com parts + superclock + analogue upgrades will bring the XA777es up to a truly world class player that equals or surpasses the Capitole benchmark for Redbook I have artificially set. (SACD performance is already adequate for me - with my unfriendly room limiting the subtle sonic benefits that may be realized in SACD by the modded player)
The deciding factor(s) to go ahead with the mods? I read an earlier post that one of the modifications providers was able to offer better service than Sony and at a reasonable cost when the poster's 777ES broke down independently of the mods, but within the timeframe of the original Sony warranty. So my worry was not so much $200-$300 for a repair that would normally be in-warranty, but rather the fact that I don't want to be without the player for a any length of time -- time is money too. That, and Jim's very detailed account of the benefits of the mods to his Sony, tipped the scales and caused me to chase my early-adopter tail one more time.
In all, I will spend about $3,800 ($2,000 to Oade for the player and $1800 or so for all the mods.) When I look at what Accuphase and Classe want for their premium players, this still seems like a bargain. Finally, keeping the SCD-1 and XA777es and then adding an Audio Aero for Redbook was a foolish, ill-thought-out plan: a rat's nest of cables, not to mention the expense of good cabling for three players (I'm hooked on the Stealth PGS and Cardas Golden Refs). So my immediate goal is: system simplification and the best front end under $5K, used or new. I rationalize this goal is both sonically and financially feasible, and echoes that of many fellow inmates -- hopefully, I 've made a wise choice.
Richard said he would get the modded XA back to me around Christmas. I'll let you know if I've indeed found the Holy Grail or if I'm trapped in a Monty Python-like quest for endless upgrades. --Lorne |
RCprince, its too early for me to tell, to give you a really well considered answer, but last night a disk refused to play in SACD mode but did in CD and I was quite flabberghasted how good it sounded. In a quick "test", my Purcell, ML rig sounded polite and laid back and somewhat darkish in comparison to the punchy freshness of the Audience/Sony. That was quite a shock. But it was late and then one of my tubes in the 200 went sour, so that was the end of it. Regards, |
Detlof, although I know my answer to this question (I haven't sold the Forsell/Purcell/Audio Logic 2400), how does your modded 777 sound on Redbook CD? Are the mods that good that they make regular CDs listenable to you? And I can see you have my reaction to the sound of SACD on the orchestral pieces. |
Jonathan, Robert at Audience actually told me, it would in time be better than the Levinson stuff. Well, I'm sceptical, but we'll see. Its broken in for about 70 hours now and I noticed a great leap forward in transparence , dynamics and general musicality on SACD after about 60 hours. Tried a classical, big orchestral piece, found it far better in every respect to any big orchestral Redbook stuff I'd ever heard, simply because it was closer to the real thing, than any CD I'd ever heard. VERY different from vinyl, which my ears are accustomed to. Need to listen more and do more breaking in , before I can report at depth. |
Congratulations and thanks for the follow up. I would tend to agree that as you found originally with break-in on the SCD-1, it will probably be at least the same with the new mods. Although the $2900 may seem expensive, if it can replace your Levinson Reference gear sonically, it will well be worth it financially.
Please keep us updated. |
Rcprince, you make a few excellent points. Its a bit early to tell still, but my experience seems to point into the same way as you suggest. Haven't listened to classical music yet, but with the Jazz stuff I listened to, I felt I could get easily drawn into the music, which is always a good sign. I marvel at the dynamics, which seem to better those of vinyl, but I hate the hiss, (mind you, you have that on some of the old Mercury LPs as well, but I hate that there too) which my ELS's and plasma tweeters reveal mercilessly. This is disturbing, especially at pppp levels, which the unit itself seems to disolve very well. |
Well Detloff, I'm glad to see you got your player back and that the mod seems to be worth the money. Let me know if you agree or disagree with me about how SACD done right stacks up to vinyl. I recently upgraded my Ovation with the Debut platter/bearing/vacuum, and I still think SACD is similar to it in many ways--better in some, not quite as engaging in others, but clearly a level up from even upsampled CD. And something I can listen to in the same listening session as vinyl without a letdown. |
Mike, quite a bit, not counting shipping from Europe to the US and back about 2900 bucks! But it seems to be worth it. If you look at their webside, which shows all that they have done with this mod, it does not seem a rip-off, but fairly reasonable. (audience-av.com) |
Detlof, How much did that set you back? |
Well, yesterday was the great day. It was a long wait of about four months, but it certainly was worth it. Right out of the box and unbroken in, my preliminary findings are:
SACD play:
1. Dynamics of quite a new order, punch galore.
2. The grain in the highs and upper mids is gone.
3. Bass seems deeper, cleaner, faster
4. Midrange is more open
5. Soundstage deeper, wider.
6. you can listen deeper into the musical presentation, and with more minute detail revealed. Certainly more PRAT.
Redbook CD:
Quick comparison with ML 30.6/31.5/Purcell upsampler combo:
SONY/Audience mod: Soundpresentation more forward, closer, more direct, (first row instead of about 6th ) more roughshot for the time being, less refined and dissolved, however a tad more dynamic-punchy, highs still a bit etchy. But don't forget, the unit is just out of the box. I may be in for quite a surprise after about 400 hours or so. The unit is on repeat now, breaking it in. Cheers, |
Hi, Jtinn, sorry to come back to you so late..... Richard did give two aproximate dates, however couldn't deliver. I'd been forewarned, so I didn't mind and these days, since Sept. 11th, well, there are more important, vital things to occupy my mind.
Cheers |
Has Richard given you any real idea of when you will recieve it? This must be getting stressfull for you. |
My stance too Jonathan! I'm still waiting, according to Audience I should have had the unit already, but then on the other hand I am glad, that they will only ship after they have rigorously put everything to the test. Well, after that, a 400 hours burn in....sigh
Happy Listening, |
SimonTJU: You are only clarifying the fact that you have not been extremely honest with us here. You never mentioned in your earlier posts anything about how you came to your conclusions, or that they were solely based on other's reviews.
I speak from personal experience, I do not make reviewer's judgements my own. I may refer to someone's review, but clearly state whether or not I have heard it for myself.
Happily Listening,
Jonathan |
Jtinn: To clarify the record. I stated (and I can't remember in what form) that Audiocom mod is the best based solely on reviews posted on AudioAsylum by inmates who had such post as well as from AVSForum, Specual Guest Section. I did not read, as I recall, any Audience mod review, except prelimenary one by Mes. He paid $2,8k for this mod and for this kind of money I, personally, would prefer more testiments. Happy listening. Simon |
My guess based on my experience with an original unit and then a finely modded unit by Richard Kern, is about 400 - 500 hours. At about 250 hours the thing sounded terrible. I almost wanted to dump it at that point but thanks to fellow users who were further into their experience, I waited it out.
The Audience mod is going to be virtually the same wait. It is much more extensive than the mods I had done. It should be quite enjoyable.
Best Regards! |
Thanks Jtinn---yes pecunia---you can never have enough of it, can you. Your post has made me even more impatient for the unit, besides I don't care what is "best". As long as it comes close or betters my vinyl front end, I'll be happy. The stock unit certainly did not, neiter my greenbook CD setup, with upsampler and all. How long do you expect the thing to break in? 300 to 400 hours?
Cheers, |
I am a big fan of "pecunia".
Detlof: After having extensive conversations with Mes I can assure you that your modded unit will be absolutely top notch and tough to beat. SimonTJU stated that the Audiocom UK mod is the best, but I doubt he has heard it or even compared many of the mods. My guess is that after the long break-in period, you will have what is probably the best sounding 777 in the world and it should compete with almost anything on Redbook. If you like it half as much as Mes did you will be a happy camper.
Best of Luck! |
Danke, Detlof. When I get rolling, I'd do the same thing again. Hopefully Audience will have expedited the process by then. Tschub, Mark |
Mes, greetings to you and sorry to hear about your plight. Well, may your system rise again, like the phoenix from its proverbial ashes. From the exchanges we had, I KNOW that you liked the modded 777 very much and I think your post is excellent in setting things straight. I should have my unit back within the next ten days or so and I'll report here, as promised. Hope you will stay on with us here at Audiogon and good luck for the near and more distant future, with sufficient "pecunia" to spare and to get things rolling again! |
I guess to be expected, some rather ignorant and disparaging remarks were made on Audio Asylum, a usually intelligent and cogent forum unfortunately peppered with paroxysms of assininity, regarding the sale of my modded 777. To clarify, this is a top shelf mod by what I experienced as professional and intelligent people, and the sound is extremely good, much better(IMOP) than units in the same price range, including mod costs, and on or nearly on par with most of the much higher priced players I've heard or had in my system. I loved the player, and although the wait seemed interminable, it was well worth it. I put it and most of my gear up for sale for the simple reason that I'm in the midst of getting divorced and a) needed the $$ and b) moved to a much smaller place and don't have a dedicated, large room any longer. So I have basicaly sold off nearly ALL my gear, not just the 777. Anyway, my point isn't to bore you with my personal turmoil, but to squelch the bullshit, reckless statements to the effect that the mod isn't any good and one should refrain from considering it JUST because my unit was up for sale. The inane nature of such thinking is irresponsible at best. Whether or not the mod is worth the cost is another issue altogether, that's subjective depending on ones price point, I have no problem with that. But to make blanket statements denigrating a product or the people who who modded it, after making the incredibly ignorant leap of "it's for sale, ergo must be no good", is nonsense, and the product of shallow thinking. The gentleman I sold it to ( Oh yea, I forgot, somehow in the midst of my idiocy I managed to sell it at about what I asked) is happy as hell with it, and loves the sound better than the higher priced player he sold to buy it. So, Detlof and those who have or are considering the Audience mod, it's well worth it, and, if you have the pecunia, I highly recommend it. Divorce on the other hand............. |
For those who wish to know, I am now installing the
Audiocom mods from Great Britain along with my own mods.
I am the american installation agent for Audiocom.
See their web site at www.audiocom-uk.com they go into
great detail about their Sony SCD-1/777ES mods.
I am going to be doing the full audiocom mod for one of
my customers in two weeks. He will be posting a review
of the mod as soon as it breaks in. I will list the cost
of the installation on my web site, once the mod is done.
www.audiomod.com Richard Kern. |
RC, I doubt that I will ever tire of that one! That Koetsu together with your Jadis gear must be heaven! Have you ever tried the Jadis Pre-Pre...I don't recall its proper designation, right now, not being at home. Its a two chassis job with a very hefty separate power supply and using four ECC83s ( two per channel) ( I use Telefunken NOS) for signal amplification. In comparison with the IO, it does not layer the soundstage as well, and the resolving power of the IO is overall a tad better, but as far as dynamics are concerned... and of course the Jadis magic, euphonic as it may be...and I don't care.....for pure musical enjoyment, the Aesthetix is left switched off. |
Detloff, kindly let me know when you tire of the JP200 (although I could break down at some point too and get one)! My analog front end is a Basis Ovation, using a Walker Motor Drive for speed control, a Graham 2.2 Deluxe arm and a Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum cartridge. Right now the Koetsu is having slight hum problems, I think it's before the preamp (I got a Koetsu step-up to try to increase the output to get over the hum, which only amplified the hum) so I'm trying to move things around to get rid of it. Sorry to go off topic... By the way, the JP200 should be able to hold up extremely well to those fff passages, its greatest strength in my mind was that it was rock solid no matter how complex the music got. Try the Delos Mahler 2 when you get your SACD player back, it may only be a 20-bit master but it is one of the best SACD's out there of a full orchestra letting loose. |
Rcprince, no I did not spring for the one which was offered here. I bought one locally. Just could not resist. I found your latest post very helpful, because that will be an essential paramter to listen for, once I have my unit back: the harshness at fff+ levels with SACD playback. By the way, what turntable/arm/pickup combination are you using?
Cheers, |
This thread is getting better as it progresses and I think Rcprince echoed my sentiment when he suggested that SACD is differnt than analogue -- superior in some areas, but lacking in others.
Hopefully, more niche manufactures will improve upon the Sony format, widening the appeal and bringing it past the 'tweaker's domain'so that format continues to improve. |
www.audiocom-uk.com offers DIY multistage upgrade for SCD-1/777es, probably best in the world. Richard Kern (www.audiomod.com) became the authorized installation agent in USA for most of us who cannot do it on our own. I owned 777 half-years ago and sold it and I am very sorry. This upgrade (in full) sounds similar to dCS and like! Too late for me |
Detloff, you're right about the differences between the 80s vs. the 500s. Did you spring for the JP200???? I saw one for sale on the 'Gon but couldn't pull the trigger and look my wife in the eye! On the question of dynamics, I doubt if many of us really have the systems that can take full advantage of the theoretical dynamic range of SACD, but for what it's worth, (a) I've always felt vinyl's dynamics were better than Cd's, probably because of the harshness of CD's at loud levels which makes it tough for me to listen to them at the loudest levels, and (b) SACD's dynamics can outdo vinyl's, on my system, because that harshness is gone. |
Kubla, yesterday they told me three weeks or so, which translated probably means five and yes I'm not particularly exited, I just rediscovered my stash of old "shady dawgs" and living presences and I am having (a) field day(s)...and nights.
Samcard, Rcprince has said it all, though my experience so far has been only with the unaltered 777. It has a nice soundspace with SACD and big orchestral works are indeed better than with redbook cds, but so far, even as far as ultimate dynamics are concerned, nothing comes close to my modified Goldmund/Jadis/Jadis/and Spectral/Spectral/electrostats combination. But then stators generally are not the last word in overall dynamics, though as far as speed and risetimes are concerend, they will beat the living hell out of practically anything else. ( The Jadis 200 preamp together with the Jadis 500 monoblocks, which are not as resolving as the wonderful Jadis 80 monos alas, give you dynamics from say pp to fff, which you must experience to believe. The 80 to my mind/ear will go from ppp to about ff) Try the shaded dog with the Viennese Walzes with Reiner and his Chicago Symphony. Especially the last cut on side two.
Regards |
Samcard, take a look at my posts here and on other SACD threads. In short, Jerry Ozment can add his tubed output stage from the Audio Logic DAC to the 777ES, with a separate analog power supply, and bypass its analog stage. I'm very happy with the result. SACD sounds "different" from a good turntable to me in that it lacks analog's warmth, but it sounds similar to a turntable in terms of openness and ease of presentation (something I never felt CD gets right), and better than a turntable in ultimate dynamics and fidelity to the source. I still ultimately prefer my turntable when I want to relax and get lost in the music, but SACD is very close. I don't know if it will ever be more than a niche product, which is a shame as it is a step forward from CD, in my book. |
Hey Kubla, what in your opinion, what is the audiophile word on the modded 777es, does it sound better than a turntable and lastly is ther any way to put a tube inline someplace to make it warmer and less harsh and more liquid in the midrange? Thanks for your consistency. |
hey detlof, light a fire under their butts or something. let us know if they give you an ETA. i think i'm more excited about it than you are. |
No, haven't heard of anyone else, Kubla. Mailed them yesterday for a progess report about mine.
Cheers, |
anyone else get another modded 777es back yet? detlof? |
hey mes, any new opinions on the 777es?
also you mentioned price above but stated that it kept changing. is it too personal to ask what you ultimately paid for the mod?
after listening to your unit are you able to infer what kind of benefit the cheapo mod would provide? i have a feeling your mod might be over my head right now - and in the distant future.
thanks |
Bob would be correct, my present digital front end is a G&D Transport and modified Entec Number Cruncher, both with the latest upgrades. These are top shelf units which thus far have been the best I've had in my system. |
Demian Martin, Tony DiGiovine and I formed DDR Mfg to build a fancy DAC and Transport....These are called the Number Cruncher and Number Server and are in boxes to match the Blowtorch preamp I build with Curl and Thompson and Mark has the updated versions of the older production units made by Entec and G&D Transforms.....The DDR units are built to order and are very expensive, but updates are available on the older production units......
Bob Crump
TG Audio/Curl Thompson Crump (CTC) Builders/DDR Mfg |
Mark, thanks for your clear cut words. Forget about the vocab and the ears, just tell us what you hear. You are experienced enough to be trustworthy. At least that's what I think. I myself haven't contacted Audience yet. I think I'll give them about six weeks until I'll start probing a bit. Eager to hear your next report and yes, what is that gear you are talking about, which seems to sound so good? Regards, |
Mes: thank you for preliminary report. I will be waiting for the nest one. When you do it, please describe your system. Thanks a lot, again. Simon |
Mes, pray tell, what is the "phenomenal transport/DAC combo" you had while the 777 was being modified? |
My modified 777 arrived Fri night. It's FAR too early to give a detailed impression, and frankly I don't consider myself qualified to do so. I don't have a golden ear and my vernacular is sorely lacking in describing what I hear. But I can tell you if I like it or not, and why.Right out of the box it is a tad bright and tight, expected, given all the new parts and soldering etc. In the time it's taken to do the mod, seemingly years, I've been listening to a phenomenal transport/DAC combo that was far better to my ear than the stock 777. Even on SACD. And better than other units I've had in my system including upsamplers/dacs such as dCS. Right out of the box, the modified 777 is at the very least competetive with this combo in direct A/B comparisons. At the very least. I'm pleasantly surprised, and my expectations were high. I'll elaborate to the best of my ability after I give it some time. And to reiterate, this is not my only front end, and in fact not my only digital front end, so I have nothing to prove other than what I think sounds best to me. Placebo schmeebo, if it sounds better or worse, it sounds better or worse. To me.I do have access to stock units and I do plan on comparing them to the mod. But again, my current transport/dac is unequivically better sounding than the stock 777. And right out of the box the mod is at least right there with this combo. You do the math. |
Hello Mark: Just let you know that I am too waiting for your (detailed-hopefully) report. Best wishes. Simon |
Hello Mark, just struck on your post. Too busy recently to log on . Hope you're burning in your unit by now. I am in the wait-mode and very curious. Regards, |
Richard from Audience just called me, my 777 mod is done and I should get it back Fri. He says it's great. Of course. I'll burn it in and A/B it with a couple of stock units and let you know. Detlof, get used to wait mode. Hopefully what I have to report back will make it worth your wait. Mark |
No Detlof, I'm in interminable wait mode. It's been "2 weeks" for the last 6. I'm hoping this week. New problems seem to come out of the void each week. When I get it I'll burn it in and A/B it with a couple of stock units I have access to, and let you know what my humble opinion is, if anyones interested. I really think it has significant potential, and possibly worth the wait. We'll see. The critical factor in my mind is that anyone can plop new parts in a given component, it's voicing it that is paramount. Given mines the first they've done, those that follow, such as yours, may actually have a better shot at the target having benefitted from the trails and tribulations of the harbinger unit.Mark |
Mes, have you got your unit back already? |
Actually, Mes, I pretty much did that before I decided to go with the mod. After breaking in the Sony, I felt that, while it was very good, I wasn't getting quite the resolution and life I got from my admittedly more expensive Forsell/Audio Logic combo. So I ran the Sony with Redbook CDs both as a player and as a transport through the Audio Logic DAC, using the same interconnects, and came to the conclusion that there was an improvement to be had, probably minor in overall objective terms but major from my subjective point of view. Originally I had wanted Jerry to rig me up a DSD digital out so I could run the Sony's DSD signal through my DAC (the Audio Logic can theoretically decode a DSD signal); he wasn't willing to do that until a standard industry interface was established, but he did offer me the option of his outboard analog stage, which in my typical impatience I took and have been happy with ever since. So I was fortunate to have a pretty good idea of what the modified unit would sound like. If I hadn't, I might have hesitated, at least till I could have heard a modified unit, but the mod I've got convinces me that, as good as the stock units are, there are improvements that can be made if you want them. Whether they're worth the cost is your call, obviously. Just my two cents... |
You boys happy with your stock units or living in fear of the "placebo effect", that's cool by me. No need to justify why you would not attempt said mod on this or any other unit. Your life, your gear, do what you like, no skin off my arse. The stock units are very good, no argument from me. My posts re this matter are an attempt to inform those who have or are considering this process, not to convince anybody it should be done or needs to be done. As far as the assertion re the lack of reference point in the comparison of stock vs. modified unit, I amazingly thought of that beforehand. I have a stock 777 and SCD-1 on hand, each of which had nearly identical sonic signitures to my stock 777. I think I'll actually A/B them when is all said and done. In fact, when I do, I'm swearing off sugar pills for the duration of the audition period. I'd be happy to share my findings to those of you interested, and am interested in what fellow mod-aholics find when you get your units back. Respectfully, Mes |
I know about this suggestibility thing. I am too long in this game not to have fallen into this trap and hence tried to learn a few lessons from it. I think I can (almost)trust my ears. I've made very careful notes about the music listened to with the 777 in its original state after about 350 hours of being broken in. I think I have a sufficient number of parameters to listen to, when it comes back. Just to put your minds a bit at ease: I've spent a large sum of money to have my Goldmund table and arm modified, so that, amongst other things, I can change VTA from the listening positionand finally get the bass rendering, soundstage, silence etc.etc.. the way I wanted it. After having spent the equivalent of about 1500 bucks, I gave it all back for redesign, because the sound seemed somewhat pinched and the voicing of the table had shifted up in emphasis. (bearing and the tip of the plinth were of a material (special ceramic) which was not suitable. I WANTED it to sound better, because it had cost me lots and would cost me more, if not satisfied, but those damned ears, with their absolute pitch ( a curse, not a blessing by the way ) just would not be cheated. Still, you can never be sure of course. Our capacity for selfdeslusion is not to be underestimated. At any rate, I'll try to be careful. By the way I just had a mail from Richard and got the same news as Mes did. So I'll have to settle down for a long wait. Cheers to all! |
