Many feel that way, David Wilson for example. I at least admire the finish and build quality of his products, more so than the sound/value (and it's not due to wiring aspects IMHO). Dynaudio doesn't believe in bi-wiring either (and I think they know more about speakers than just about anybody on earth). I've never heard the benefit from biwiring, personally....................One thing I am sure of, is that binding posts have more of a sonic signature than either the spade/banana connectors, OR especially the wire. Someone needs to design a composite binding post that uses a small amount of conductor to contact the wire (or connectors), and some hard plastic or non-magnetic, non-conducting material for the screw down and mounting mechanism. This way, cable manufacuters could use the material of their choice for the electric conductor part (it could just be poured in, or form-fitted). TWO CABLE MANUFACTURERS have already told me personally that they want to bring such a thing to market, but I DOUBT either has the engineering resources to pull it off (unlike a company such as WBT, who evidently like the sound of a brass/copper alloy, or else they would have already invented such a composite binding post...it seems to me). |
The answer is simple.Open up the back of the speakers.Take the wire off the top posts connect it to the bottom post and low and behold you have rid yourself of the problem.when you are ready to bi Amp hook it up again.Bi-wire is the poor man's answer to Bi-Amp and really is a scam.I have spoken to many and they concur.I had my speakers recently changed to single wire by the MFG.He told me the ones I had where one of only a few he had ever Bi wired because he had had a special request for it.He stated that properly designed speakers do not need or benifit from bi wiring.my speakers sound better know that they are single wired.So save yourself tge trouble.the publisher of Bound for Sound is also saying the same thing in print. |
Trelja, I agree with you very much and appreciate your turning us on to some of these very value oriented methods to enhancing music reproduction. Fortunately, a wealth of information has arisen in many of the DIY areas, not just cables. Moreover, the little uprising of small companies charging reasonable prices may, in fact, lead to a revolution of sorts. But I don't think it will be televised! ;) I believe that most of their business will be by word of mouth. So, next time I need new cables I will definitely check them out. |
I am happy for you Dekay. This field is one of those where prices are set by emotion, rather than logic. Of course it is supply and demand. But, as many in this hobby are fools, we all end up paying more. By fabricating your own jumpers, you can save boatloads of money. There are many examples of this type of thing in our society, not only in audio. That's why if a company like HomeGrown Audio, Pure Silver Sound, Axon, or others(whom I cannot think of right now) are going to offer cables that others charge hundreds or thousands of dollars for for $70, I am going to blow their horns. My motivation? Maybe the more demand that is out there, the more companies will spring up, and the more choices we will have. Maybe we can also eradicate my favorite excuse, "I would love to charge $100 for this cable, but I have to charge $1000 for it to be taken seriously." And maybe even one day, companies who will offer $20 cables for $2000 will be in the minority, instead of the majority. Then we can ALL have good sound. |
Thanks for the info Lakiraly and Trelja: Now I understand your old post on gage/feet Trelja, before it was over my head. For around $10.00 (if I can purchase this minimum amount) I will have to try it. I am still fascinated by little inexpensive things that can be done to improve the sound of a system. I realize that many people do not have the time to spend on DIY stuff and just buy finished products (like in this case the jumpers from Pure Silver Audio that are relatively inexpensive but around $100.00 more than this recommendation). I am also intrigued with using silver as a conducter after trying silver interconnects. |
Yes, Homegrown, or a jewelry supply house for silver. Silver wire is $8.95/ounce for 4 - 18 gauge. $9.25/ounce for 20 or 22 gauge. Just for reference, 1 ounce of 10 gauge wire would be 2 feet, 12 gauge would be 3 feet(both certainly more that what would be required for jumpers). I don't think you could do any better than that route. |
Dekay, You could purchase silver cable 99.999% from homegrown, to use as a jumper. They would know what to advise you to purchase and the best way to do it. Larry |
SF: I basicaly just did a doughnut today and ended up where I started. I screwed up the end of one of my cables and decided to make a jumper out of the the same cable instead of stripping another 3" off the end and threading it throught the LF post on up to the HF post which acted like a one piece jumper (one continuous wire). Sonicaly either way is the same to my ears (I have done it and now I know). Either way is also a big improvement over the stock plate jumpers that were supplied with the speakers. I hopefully will take it up a notch by bi-amping, but the catch is that I have not yet gotten the blinkin amps (not available in this country anymore), but I will. In the meantime I would still like to take it up another notch and with the sound advice in this thread I can now justify picking up a second pair of cables to try out a shotgun bi-wire setup. The new cables will not go to waste regardless of what I do with either system. I did not get this part of it before and admit to be incredibly dense on this point. Now I will re-read the old bi-wire threads with gusto . Swampwalker my usual feeling is - forget the spades and use bare wire. But on other hand I just crammed 8 bare wires (not certain of the gage) into a single hole post and it was a challenge. It might be more feasible if you used a split round receptacle clamp on spade to corral all of those wires. I have a pair of Kimber bananas with this type of end (it's a ring with a break in it so that it can be expanded and compressed). Oh, and the 45 feet is 4 ten foot lengths plus enough left over to hang myself. |
Don't want to get too far off point, but does anyone know if there is an advantage when doing double biwire to starting from single set of spades at amp end, vs. just using two sets of wires, both connected to one set of binding posts at amp end, then going to the respective LF or HF terminal at speaker end. Using two seperate sets of wires would help me set up some cables I am trying, they each have 12 strands of 20 g and getting 24 strands into a single spade would be difficult. Thanks in advance. |
Dekay, oh yeah this sounds all so simple! First, you oughta stay away from sharp objects. ;) I really don't understand why you went through all of these contortions; you should have just left the flat metal jumper on. Nevertheles, I know that the preferred method is to replace the metal with good quality _short_ jumper. It seems that you did that with the 4VS. Geez, why didn't you take the whole damn thing apart and solder wire on the connectors? I'm not familiar with the gauge of or anything else about Kimber 4VS, but the "standard" with what you have and seem to be attempting is to use 8TC for LF and 4TC for HF. That's essentially what I used to do, and I keep those cables for another setup. Then, in your last post you speak of a 45' length..... now wtf is _that_ all about. Anyway, I wonder if you would truly notice any sonic differences by all these different jumper methods. Carl did make some good sense concerning oxidation, but I don't think you need to worry about that. God only knows why you tried the first thing you did; I sure wouldn't do that with my Cardas Golden whatever. [See DK, I'm not thinking too clearly now?] It would just seem that logic dictates that you explain what you really want to accomplish in order to have it so well thought out/planned as you indicated. Bottom line, you did a great job of confusing me! Just watch out for sharp objects, dude! |
dekay, carl is right - if yer gonna need a second set of cables for yer bi-amp set-up, yust get 'em now & double-up both ends at yer amplifier - ewe should notice an improvement. i tried this for one of my electrocompaniet amps when the other was out being updated. doug. |
Good logic Carl. I will need a second set of long cables anyway "if" the MF amps do come through and if they don't come through I am still set up for bi-wire which is probably the next best thing. I can't do the long interconnect short wire thing due to equipment placement. I messed up one of my 3" bare single wire ends a few hours ago when I was rigging the threads on a stripped post with steel wool. So, I ended up making a set of jumpers anyway out of the Kimber 4VS as opposed to "threading the snake" again. It sounds the same as the single wire to both the LF and HF terminals it's just funkier looking with the little loop. I did it without powering down, it was like playing that old childs game "Operation". If I keep the 4VS for the LF's would the 8TC be a good match for the HF's or what other Kimber would work well, maybe 4TC? I will also be needing a single run of speaker wire for a second system and could just use the 4VS for that and buy some new stuff for the main sytem. I have been curious about the Audioquest CV4 in bulk since I am not an advocate of using any type of connector, but do not know if it would be a step down from the Kimber 4VS. Audio Advisor sells it for $6.00 a foot but I would prefer to pay half that and would need 45 feet. End of babbling, that is all. |
I meant to say that in the mean time, you could just double-up the spade connectors (of two sets of single wire speaker cables) on the amp end, and connect to the bi-wire terminals on the speaker end. I have an HT Pro-9 biwire cable, that I double-up the spades on the single-wire SPEAKER end; this works fine. Just make sure that none of them try to reach across and touch the opposite pole, or there'll be hell to pay from your amp's point of view!! |
I use a small length of Audioquest 22 gauge silver wire to bypass the tweeter fuses on my Maggies. It should probably be a little bigger wire than that, but this has worked fine for me. I don't believe there is a solid core silver wire that is any larger, so anything else will be more than one strand (Kimber's is like 19 AWG, but there are 3 strands). If you are going to bi-amp, then you just need a whole other set of single wire speaker cables to run from the amp anyhow, don't you? Just get another set of speaker cables, maybe? |
Thanks Carl: I use Deoxit on the bare wire connections though I did not notice any improvement when I cleaned them last week. I do not want to buy internal bi-wires because with a little luck I will be bi-amping pretty soon and they would then not be needed. Any idea if the single run of bare solid core silver wire would work well as a jumper? If so can you recommend a gage for the wire. My amp is rated at 50 watts rms but tests at around 80 watts. Thanks. |
My vote for this method, if you must use it, is to use separate silver wire as the jumper, simply because when the silver on the surface of the conductor oxidizes over time, it will still conduct electricity (Jeffrey Smith of Silversmith cables feels this even sounds "better" than non-oxidized silver...though I've heard no evidence of the affirmative of this, for it to be true for me). Using the same unbroken copper conductor is great on truely ideal terms. But, copper oxide does NOT conduct electricity............................The best method for single wire connection, is to NOT have two sets of (bi-wire) posts in the first place. A terminated bi-wire cable is the simplest, quickest, and best solution for a bi-wire connection, IMO (and is also the consensus of most of the print reviewers in the past few years). |
