I had a Modwright ph 9.0 and had it upgraded to a 9.0x. I also had the Parasound JC3+ at the same time. The jc3+ and the 9.0 are very comparable in sound but with a slightly different sound signature. Any difference preference was purely subjective. The 9.0x was objectively better. Deeper,more authoritative bass and deeper soundstage and that’s with the stock tubes! With the right nos tubes (Philips miniwatt, Bel India, and Valvo 6922, Matsushita 7dj8, Valvo and Philips miniwatt PCC88 tubes) I can’t imagine a better sounding phono preamp.
Solid State Phono Stages
I used to be an all-tube guy, but I’ve now ventured into the realm of high-end solid state with T+A and no longer have any itch to go back heavily into tubes. Now, the only tubes I have left in my system are in my Modwright PH9.0X phono, and from what I’ve demoed against it, it seems to be a giant killer. I do love it, but I’m curious to try a higher end solid state phono stage to see what more noise and more music might sound like. Unfortunately T+A does not have a standalone phono stage, so I’m looking at other manufacturers and open to other opinions.
I currently have a Clearaudio Innovation Wood table and Air Tight PC-1s cartridge. i listen to a wide range of music, from Zeppelin to Vivaldi to Beck to Coltrane to Yello. The stage would ideally have between 65-74db of gain, maybe adjustable to 60db at minimum, and have variable impedance values. A balanced output stage would be ideal. I don’t ever really plan to have a second arm, but most stages that retail over $7K tend to have multiple inputs anyways.
My budget would be at tops ~$8K for a used unit. The unit that is sticking out to me from what I’m reading about is the Simaudio Moon 810LP. Another high on the list is the Esoteric E-02. I’ve also come across the Pass XP-27, the Gold Note PH-1000.
I’m looking for a stage with some personality in its character, not one that is overly refined. I’d love for it to be dynamic and bold when it should be, and also gentle and refined when it should be.
The only solid state stages I’ve ever owned and tried were the Pass Labs Xono, which was clean sounding but a little noisy and brittle sounding compared to a PS Audio Stellar Phono. I’ve liked all my tube phono stages better than both of those units.
I’ve also considered going further up the tube stage route, looking at Doshi 3.0, Aesthetix IO Eclipse, but I’m hesitant unless I can hear those in place.
What solid stage phono stages have you loved, and what have you compared them to?
172 responses Add your response
@hagtech I don't know how you do it, but I am glad you do! | ||
If you haven't considered the Rega Aura that's my current phono preamp and "end game" for me at least. I owned the PS Audio Stellar Phono Pre and traded for the Rega. The Aura is super refined, detailed without being strident and very musical. I have it paired with a Rega RP-10 / Aphelion 2 so all Rega may have some bearing on "synergy". | ||
Dear @thiefoflight : +/- 0.2b means that the RIAA deviation has a maximum of 0.2b below or over the eq. then the swing is 0.4db. In your model that deviation starts at 40hz. Normally the RIAA deviation spec starts at 20hz and due that Audionet decided to starts at 40hz that means that below 40hz de deviation is higher. Normally too phono stages higher eq. RIAA inverse deviation happens in the low bass frequency range. You can read about the phonolinepreamp that I'm using in the Agon virtual system.
R. | ||
It’s still worthwhile to hear what folks like, for others’ learning benefits. @rauliruegas Wouldn’t a RIAA response of +/-0.2db only sway at a max 0.2db at any single frequency? What phono stage do you use that sways a total of 0.11db? | ||
Dear @grk : You came to the thread a little late. The OP already bougth not one but two phono stages. The Audionet is one of them.
R. | ||
@thiefoflight : Directly in the Audionet. This I pasted from there:
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@rauliruegas Thanks - can you share where you saw that? | ||
@rauliruegas Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’m still curious, though - I asked before. Are you referring to the 0.4db on the BMC or the Audionet? One thing I am skeptical about is uniformity of measurements. Sometimes manufacturers will state a weighted average vs the lowest performing spec across the frequency spectrum. In that case, across most frequencies, the BMC is performing closely to that 0.011db spec. It only deviates that in the low bass regions, which are then able to be additionally compensated in the settings. I would say that in the least, I applaud BMC for publishing the performance across the frequency range, which most other manufacturers are not inclined to do. | ||
Dear @herman @thiefoflight : " at the end of the day it’s how it sounds to me, and in my room, and that matters the most. "
I agree with you and with herman too about those 10db developed by almost any room system where 0.4db deviation can see " silly " to considerate. What any one of us like to listen how it sounds always has different quality levels. We can be satisfied iwht a truly expensive room/audio system but even there exist other " better " quality levels. Of what depends that wuality levels/grading of what we like? depends of many room/system issues but mainly of what be our MUSIC/sound targets. Through the years as almost any one of you I builded what I have trying to achieve that target and still am in that quest. My target is try to stay nearer to the recording no matters what and for I can stay nearer to the rcording any room/system link is critical to achieve that target. At each single liiiiiink in the system chain I must look that that link develops the lower any kind of distortions from the source to my ears. If we are talking of the way imperfect analog medium the inverse RIAA eq. curve deviation is way important because any db fraction affects at least one and a half octave and obviously its harmonics. Phono stage is only and example of what I look to achieve my target and this is why my hono line preamps has a deviation RIAA that measure 0.011 db No this kind of specs is not what makes the whole difference on what I'm listening but that ridiculous deviation RIAA counts in the overall room/system MUSIC/sound reproduction. I take care at any system link.
In the other side a swing of that silly 0.4db amkes me think that something is not really good in that expensive phono stage design, that's all. Today a 2k phono stage gives us 0.1db in that spec. It's not a true critic to the OP unit is only a " way of thinking in " loud " way ". The main advantage that gives us that target and how been there is that if we have any system link at its minimum distortion levels there is no way that the room/system MUSIC/sound reproduction don't like it: no way, always will like any one of us . I don't try to disturb the op or any one else and I don't want to derail the thread.
R.
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@pindac Nicely said. | ||
"i appreciate measurements, but 100% agree that at the end of the day it’s how it sounds to me, and in my room, and that matters the most". Your statement strikes a chord, I am wed to, and ensure when I am in the process of learning I get as up close and personal to devices/equipment of interest as possible, and this regularly means I am in a room that is dedicated to the use of the items of interest, this allows a subjective evaluation and reasonably accurate assessment . For myself, I would class any evaluation not undertaken like the above, especially if a device is not demonstrated, as a fantastical assessment which will most likely be quite flawed. Having a demonstration, preferably in the home system, is the most important if the enjoyment of listening to a music replay is the priority, ones ears being used in the selected environment for the equipment, are the only methods required to tell if the set up is delivering in a totally satisfying manner for the end user. | ||
@herman and @rauliruegas Let’s not let this escalate any further. To be fair, the term “critical” is subjective to each listener, and we do know Raul has very high standards. :) @herman I do empathize on how your words were misconstrued. I agree with your perspective, and you shouldn’t have been rejected for sharing it. i appreciate measurements, but 100% agree that at the end of the day it’s how it sounds to me, and in my room, and that matters the most. | ||
The RIAA standard boost/cut is a range of 40 dB from 20-20KHz. Therefore, 0.4dB deviation is not critical. That does not mean I am saying that RIAA correction is not NEEDED. Raul, you have taken what I said and totally twisted it out of context. You have taken my statement that 0.4 dB is not critical and taken it the extreme to state I am saying that RIAA correction is not NEEDED I did not even hint that RIAA correction is not NEEDED. Why would you state that I did?
good day
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Dear @herman : Rather silly? is a fools game ? could be for you that have different MUSIC/audio targets than me.
" It is certainly NOT the "main critical characteristic.. " Statement totally false for say the least. Look, the phono stage exist because the cartridge signal NEEDS the INVERSE RIAA EQ. If the cartridge signal did not needs it then the phono stage was not not a necessity because with a line stage preamp is more than enough. A linepreamp with a selector for: CD,MM,MC and the like. No inverse RIAA eq. heavy signal degradation ! ! !
Can you imagine the huge improvement in what all of us should listen it with out?
R.
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rather silly to get excited about that small of a deviation. No , it is really, really silly. All else equal, flatter is of course better, but chasing ideal measurements is a fools game. You are lucky if you don’t have 10dB swings in response at the listening position due to speaker-room interactions. I couldn’t care less about 0.4 dB. It is certainly NOT the "main critical characteristic.. "
How does it sound? That is all that matters | ||
Dear @mijostyn : It’s true that the SETA L20 MK2 is an excellent phono stage but as nothing in audio is not perfect.
The unit I have in my system outperform it in some specs as the RIAA eq. measurements and the noise level of my unit is almost " there " as its frequency range and several other specs. You can go to the Channel D site and its RIAA is not so accurated as should be for a unit of that caliber. Look there its " critical " performance from 50hz and down and compare against what I own:
Of course that specs tell you many things but can’t explain perfectly what you are listening. I can tell you that my unit performs at very high quality levels. In the other side I never had the opportunity to listen the L20 MK2 that I’m sure is ( again ) excellent but overall the phonolinepreamp I own could compete with. R. | ||
@pindac it's amazing what system synergy can do. it's right there with turntable set-up, speaker positioning etc. it's valuable to have a written, concrete example like you shared. it's also good to be surprised. 😁 | ||
Noise in the older ARC phono stages is almost entirely tube dependent. You really have to get now noise tubes then they are as quiet as a tube stage can get. They are also hybrid with a FET front end. The quietest phono stage made by a longshot is the Channel D Seta L20. It can be run either current or voltage mode. It is also something like $60,000 and out of my price range. But, Channel D's Seta L Plus is the second quietest phono stage made and can also be run either current or voltage mode. It has a battery power supply and an extremely accurate RIAA circuit. It also has a flat output if you care to try digital RIAA correction. At about $10,000 it is manageable. I find it intriguing enough to buy it sight unheard. Both Stereophile and Absolute Sound raved about it's little brother, the Lino C. @lewm, Schroder will only use captive cables. He will supply them RCA or XLR. It is a breeze to swap connectors, maybe 20 minutes with a soldering iron. Sota will be displaying their Nova and Cosmos tables with Schroder arms now. I wonder whose fault that was. Anyway, you know how I feel about unnecessary contacts in the way of a phonograph cartridge signal. | ||
@thiefoflight to discover a device that surpasses and supersedes a trusted device is usually a knock one out the ballpark experience, and only being their can really describe the impact that is made and good impression left. I have had this twice with Two Phon's across a few years, one that was built for me by the designer who was initially offering it as a kit to be assembled, this was very special and won my favour and others who experienced it, following a Tube Rolling experience, I thought I was finished with the search for Phon'. A friend attended a Phonostage Bake Off with myself and demonstrated a Phon' he had produced, and when it was given its demonstration, it was a show stopper. I was supplying parts and a critical ear during this Phon' design rethink. The end product took on a few guises throughout a period of a year and the latest design produced solely by this individual is owned by myself. It is a amazing piece of kit to use, and my search is I believe for now over, whilst my ears are functioning as they are at the present. The designer is now involved with producing Phon' designs for a well known Company that specialises in ancillaries for TT's. Enjoy the new information to be revealed from the groove and the wonderment that can follow. | ||
@photomax I appreciate your call out very much, thanks. I was worried it might go that route myself and glad it did not. A somewhat fitting statement, someone I work with introduced me to “The Platinum Rule”. Where the golden rule says to treat others the way you would like to be treated, the platinum rule says to treat people the way THEY want to be treated. Very subtle difference that requires an extra ounce of awareness for others’ needs. If this is how every forum went, we’d all be much further along on our audio journey! | ||
Hey @rauliruegas - thanks for your thoughts and making me look into it. Are talking about the BMC unit? The Audionet claims +-.2db. While the BMC doesn’t list the spec, they publish the chart, which is almost completely flat (0db deviation) from 60hz on. They also explain their theory on why RIAA equalization in general can be inaccurate, and that additional adjustments can be made to compensate for low bass. I will not get this unit until late May likely. OTOH the Audionet PAM G2 with EPC power supply is well above and beyond the performance of the Modwright PH9.0X. There is an absolutely beautiful weight and bloom and tone, more so than the Modwright. The soundstage is wider and imaging outlines are more precise. The Audionet is above and beyond quieter. Bass control and amount is significantly better. I’ll be putting the Modwright up for sale in the coming week or so. It is by far an incredible stage for the price, but I seem to have found a successor in the Audionet, and we’ll see how the BMC performs in a month or two. | ||
Dear @thiefoflight : Congratulations.As with any audio item almost always exist a " but " and in your unit is that's weird that the RIAA deviation ( that's the main critical characteristic along gain for a phono stage. ) has a swing of 0.4db ! and even the manufacturer does not disclose rthe RIAA deviation at 20hz but from 40hz and up. It's normal that if has 0.4db at 40hz then at 20hz could be higher. Not a good thing for an item with its " pedigree " level. Yes, is high for a unit coming from that manufacturer.
Anyway, enjoy it, R. | ||
@jpan The following statement is valuable advice and one that has been experienced by myself today whilst visiting a friend whose designs for HiFi equipment has won much favour. "An alternative would be to get the XP-17 and put the rest of your dollars into a good/better interconnect and power cord. (And/or upgrade your phono cable.) Those improvements will yield a significant improvement as well". My friend has adopted the use of cables using PC Triple C Wire since my introducing these to the system they own. This friend has also assisted me in my request to have a Tonearm Produced using PC Triple C Internal wiring. There is now after a few attempts and some extended trials a Tonearm produced into its final guise using PC Triple C Internal Wiring. Today was about using my owned PC Triple C wire as a DIN>RCA Cable and as a RCA>RCA Cable and the system owners acquired cables with the same wire in the system with the new internal tonearm wire. To add a curve ball, I also brought along a Power cord / lead made form the same wire and other RCA >RCA Interconnects that are produced using D.U.C.C wire. We both have the same TT's and Tonearms and a selection of Cart's attached to same material headshells. My friend had a 'Old friend cartridge' that he has not owned or used the model for a very long time, but had recently acquired as a model with a sale description that it has close to a 1000 hours of usage on it, and it was purchased as a Cart' to be a donor to go for a overhaul, to give more expensive owned Cart's a break from usage. The Cart' in question is a Ortofon Kontrapunkt B (Kb), I own good condition spares of these Cart's, as well as a model that has been completely rebuilt. The idea was to work our way through trialling Cables and exchanging Cart's up to the Ortofon Windfeld. The Plan did not quite go as organised, after a couple of cable configurations, the so called worn out Kb, was superb with a couple of Cable configurations and not quite the same match with other configurations. The suggestion was made to add the Power Cord / Lead to the Phonostage, which when done was quite something, there was a noticeable change for the better and the Power Cord was agreed to be kept in place. The Cable of the day in my view was a RCA > RCA SAEC SL-5000, when in use with the Internal Arm Wire and the Power Cord, the SL-5000 delivered in a way that was quite unimaginable, bearing in mind the Cart' in use was supposed to be a donor for a refurb, not one of the attendees wanted the Cart' to be changed, the want was strong to see what was on offer from it from all the LP's brought along . I have a very little use Kb' that is un-mounted and stored, it has been agreed this Cart' will be brought along for the next session arranged for June and will be compared to the Cart' used today, if it still has wind in its sails, my suspicion is it has been a Lazarus today and has many hours of usage left to go. Do I regret not trying out different Cartridges, not at all, and as far as I can tell no one else is feeling something was missed either. The Cables selected allowed a Cart' that was expected to be underwhelming experience to shine and be a Cart' that generated a very positive impression.
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I used to have an Xono before moving to the XP-15. I currently have the XP-17. While I loved the Xono, the later Pass phono stages are head and shoulders above it. I don't think you can get an XP-27 for $8K, but if you can find it at that price I would jump all over it. An alternative would be to get the XP-17 and put the rest of your dollars into a good/better interconnect and power cord. (And/or upgrade your phono cable.) Those improvements will yield a significant improvement as well. | ||
So just to update this thread, I’ve made a few decisions and settling on two phono stages actually. The first is on the Audionet PAM G2 with outboard EPC power supply. Should go perfectly with my cartridge, and the engineering of the unit fascinates me. 260,000uF of capacitance reservoir is more than my power amp’s separate power supply. The second one will be the BMC MCCI Signature ULN, which will be coming from Germany likely in mid-to-late May. This is a “transimpedance” / current injection stage as some have pointed me to in this thread. I likely won’t be able to post impressions on the Audionet for another week or so, but excited to compare against the Modwright PH 9.0X. Thanks all, for being a great community to enrichen my audio journey. And stay tuned! | ||
I own several turntables and cartridges, which I alternate with different phono stages and step-up; I have been using both a Pass Xono as my main phono preamp for many years and I have not noticed the characteristics exhibited by the opener both a Camtech Phono and an Audio Analogue Aria rev. and I must say that both the Xono and the Camtech have slightly different sonic characteristics and that I appreciate both, I do not feel the need to change for now because I am satisfied. I might suggest that the opener try listening to FM Acoustics if he gets the chance. | ||
I picked up the Rega mini phono recently for use on digitizing vinyl as well and gotta say for less than $200 it is pretty darn good. Also very well reviewed which is why I tried it first before sinking more $$$$$s into a new phono setup. Recommend trying the Inexpensive Rega phono preamps to start. Nothing to lose. Available from many vendors with very good return policies which is very important when trying out new gear. | ||
@herman many thanks for having me revisit aaudioimports.com. I tried before from laptops and the site wouldn’t load for me, but today it worked on my phone. I’ve sent an email to the distributor to inquire. For others commenting on Whest, Music Direct has the PS 40 SE for $7500, which is a good deal for open box but still doesn’t have me convinced. It would still fall a little beyond my stated budget. | ||
https://10audio.com/bmc_mcci-uln/ Love or hate Fremer, he liked it, and this was before the signature version B.M.C.'s Phono MCCI is exceptional, and easily among the best, if not the best, MC phono preamps available today at any price. Its sound was startlingly good, and in some ways seemed to surpass that of virtually every other phono preamp I've heard, especially in terms of transparency, and of not imposing its own strong character, or any character, on the music.
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I second Variat on the Whest gear. I have had a couple of their offerings; currently using a customized PS30 RDT SE which James built for me two years ago using mostly PS40 RDT parts put into a surplus PS30 case and a customized input on one setting for my vintage AT20ss MM. This phono stage is simply outstanding, way beyond several other well-known names mentioned here which I have owned. The Whest preamps are simply superb. At this time I am using an Ortofon A90 MC with it, not the AT20ss. It is just simply jaw dropping how good this sounds. | ||
There is a Phon' that there might be a opportunity to experience in the USA and one that I have received an audition of on a few occasions. Also it is one that I know is owned in the UK and has maintained a very loyal following, especially when owners have had it compared to very expensive Phon's in their own systems. My most memorable experience of the Paradise Phonostage has been at a Bake Off event where the host has a system worth approx' £200 000, one of the UK's renowned builder of the Paradise design was present with their personal model. The event usually does Valves / Valve Hybrid and Solid State as their own sections and these models are presented in groups governed by Purchase Value. The Paradise was entered into the Bake Off at a particular Purchase Value range and was speedily removed from the demonstration by the host of the event, to be entered at a much more expensive purchase price for the Phon's. When used at the lower purchase value demonstration, the Paradise was noticeably streets ahead in its qualities. It can be stated that Phon's from a certain price range can sound quite similar and only really separate in their perfomances, if a certain frequency is noticeably accentuated during the performance. I put this down to very similar Topologies for the circuit designs used. In the end Six Phon's were side by side with the most expensive having a Purchase Value of £10 000, interestingly a very rarely encountered Modwright 9.0 Valve Hydrid Design was in this selection. This selection was trimmed to the Paradise and the Music First Reference going Head to Head. A Commercial £10 000 Phon' ( Music First Ref ) and Bespoke Kit Built £2500 Paradise. Each are quite unique and not with the same sonic traits as many Phon's in demonstrations had shown previously. There was a split between the selection and the attendees who were deselecting Phon's throughout the day were not unanimous in their choice, there was no clear preferred choice. I could have quite happily spent many many hours with either.
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@herman I just came across the MCCI Signature ULN myself two days ago and was very intrigued by it! Can you share where you got yours from? I can’t find any dealers in the USA and I trued contacting BMC directly and did not get a response. | ||
Another recommendation for Sutherland Transimpedance designs. Just transcending in all aspects. For me, it was revolutionary in that my poor recordings became amazing! It really gets to the heart of the recordings. Any in the lineup exhibit this behavior, but you of course, get more as you move up to the higher end Little Loco or Big Loco. | ||
There are quite a few very good phono stages ad there are a handful of really special ones. I have one of the first sort that uses tubes in one system (Conrad Johnson Premier 15). It is very good.
I have a solid state phono stage in my other system and it is the best I have ever heard of any type (Vendetta SCP2 -C). But good luck at ever finding one. | ||
Ron Sutherland is a great guy, and all he does is design phono stages. I would challenge the thought of having a long cord between the phono stage and the preamp though. You want cables to be as short as possible. If you don't need balanced/XLR, that opens other options for you like the Sutherland DUO. Plus you'll save a nice chunk of change. Also, van den Hul should be on your list. | ||
+1 for a transimpedance stage. With a 2.5 Ω impedance your cartridge is a perfect candidate. I had Esoteric e-02, Allnic 3000, and also had the Sutherland Loco. I've also had a Channel D Lino C which was good but not as good as the others, but it has been a while and it was an earlier model so can't really compare it. The Loco is balanced in but can be used with RCA-XLR adapters or the input jacks can be changed to RCA. I’ve talked to Ron Sutherland about and he is OK with the mod if done with quality connectors by a qualified tech... it is very easy to do. But I sold it in favor of the B.M.C. MCCI Signature ULN - Balanced Moving Coil Phono Amp. At basically half the price of the Loco I preferred not only for sound but it is much more flexible in terms of gain, RIAA selection, and a few other options. It does require XLR in so quality adapters would be needed unless you change your cable.
http://bmc-audio.com/index.php/bmc-phono-mcci-30.html
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