I’m looking high and low for speakers with the following attributes:
1. Wide and deep soundstage. Speakers can disappear from the soundstage. 2. Decent imaging. 3. Explosive dynamics with force and surprise. 4. Costs less than $10k.
Perhaps someone should start a thread regarding horn speakers. This " love it or hate it " impression has to be explored, I think. Personally, I don’t like in your face sound nor do I like laid back sound, horns or not.
To truly address horn speakers at least we have to maintain the distinction between the hybrids and the all-horns, but strictly speaking the latter should have the main focus - otherwise, to my mind, it would be doing (all-)horns a disservice, certainly in an effort to narrow down more precisely their sonic imprinting as true horn speakers. Poster @buellrider97 poses a good question above in asking: "Do the high quality horn systems move the air with the authority of underhung voice coils and massive power?," because it calls out comparing quality horns to quality (under-hung voice coil) direct radiating speakers in an area which, in essence, points to revealing differences between them in more general terms. This also goes to show what could be the problematic issue in combining horns with directs radiating transducers, and that at least some of the negativity aimed at "horns" could be rooted in this. Obviously I can’t speak for all let alone base my impressions on an all-encompassing breadth of speakers, horns or not, but going by some monitor speakers in particular (like larger ATC’s, Stage Accompany and JBL’s) and a general larger segment of direct radiating speakers, I find them to exhibit a rather "pulsating," sharply defined, sometimes a bit disjointed (not the ATC’s and SA’s), and in many cases (not the aforementioned monitors) a slight leanness to the upper bass/lower midrange. All-horn speakers by comparison (i.e.: my own speakers, WE, Altec, Living Voice, etc.) can possess more of a kind of a floating/fluid/effortless, warm, enveloping sphere-like crispness, and a sense of uninhibited presence and overall size. The sound here seems less defined (though without lack of detail), and more like a large vibrating, again, sonic sphere in front of you. Contrary to what many believe I find all-horns to perhaps be the most easy-on-the-ears sounding speakers (not to be confused with ’pleasing’ as such), but those who mayn't think this way could in reality be referring to hybrids (or not). The uninhibited presence I’m referring to is not to be confused with in-your-face, a very important distinction here, although I’m aware many describe "horns" to sound like that (and I’m sure they can be right in assuming so based on other speakers). Coming about the sonic impressions of hybrids (horns + direct radiators in some configuration) to my ears generally point in a different, third direction. The last hybrid I listened to more closely were the JBL K2 S9900’s, and I found them to be all-around dynamic but not compellingly coherent, and speaking with different "voices" - particularly in the bass and central to upper midrange. In that regard I find them to mimic in a sense my impressions of other hybrids. Just my $0.02.
They are Simon Mears Audio Uccello’s, which I’d by happy to recommend as well. They’re hardly to be found used, however (a new pair is priced at approx. $15,000, bought directly from Mr. Mears without any intervening distributor), and roll off below some 60Hz which may lead some to augment them with a sub. They sport a measured ~106dB sensitivity.
To the OP: forgot to recommend the Dutch-based, Stage Accompany speakers, specifically the model M-57 (if it can be had new close to your budget). The larger M-59 would be too expensive, likely even used. There’s also Casta Acoustics Model C, if you can dig them up used.
Kosst it's not that I think they are the only viable way, it's that when you post blatantly wrong information that I feel the need to correct it. This way when people read these threads in the future hopefully they won't be misled. There is far too much misinformation about horns out there already.
I'm guessing you've never even listened to Tools recorded work. Dynamically compressed doesn't at all describe it.
More assumption from you, what a surprise. I have "Opiate" and went back and revisited it after this comment. I immediately followed it up with Dream Theater's "Awake". If that is your frame of reference for dynamics and recording quality, your frame of reference sucks. My comment about listening to dynamically compressed rock was based on that recording and after listening to it again, I stand by that comment.
I kinda doubt the OP is still paying attention. His aspirations for a system aren't much different than my own
Who are you, Carnac the magnificent?
but has turned this thread into a soap box for those to extoll the virtue of their own opinions.
Clearly, self awareness is not a strong suit for you. You do it on every thread you participate in.
I'd have ignored this posting half way through page 1 had I originated it.
Too bad you didn't originate this posting, it would have saved reading a bunch of whining from someone that clearly does not know what he/she does not know.
Low level listening dynamics are clearly a virtue of high efficiency, large displacement speakers (not always horn systems). At normal listening levels (70-85 db), the gap is very narrow for most really good speakers, irrespective of design philosophy. When you start getting above 90 db, many, many home speakers begin compressing. My current Meadowlark Shearwater Hot Rods, though ony 88 db efficient, are very credible dynamically up to that point. Comparing them to my previous Vapor Audio Arcus was enlightening. The compression is subtle at first and becomes stark as the volume goes up from there. Why did I get rid of the Arcus? for my taste, they require a subwoofer and I could never get the blend perfect. 90 plus percent of the time it was seamless, but when it wasn't, I hated it. If you listen at all above the levels mentioned above, you owe it to yourself to listen to one of the high efficiency systems mentioned in comparison. You will be surprised how early many systems begin compressing and understand what that really sounds like. It truly is an eye/ear opener.
Actually, Tool’s recorded works are relatively uncompressed dynamic range wise, see link below for the list of Tool recordings including reissues and their relative dynamic ranges, from the Official Dynamic Range Database. Green is good, red is bad.
Geoff, thanks for the link, very interesting. The Tool disc I have is on the low end of the medium scale, and is audible. Clearly many of their albums are better, and I will check out some of them. It also shows that the upper range dynamics of the DT album is better. What is really interesting is how differently the same album can rank, depending on the release.
Kosst. Actually it's not my cult, my speakers are not all out horn's. Only the tweeter is a horn, the mid and bass are regular dynamic cones. But I have owned quite a few speakers many mid efficiency like Vander Steen, reference 3A, Dynaco, Tannoy's, Polk SDA's Ive owned low efficiency panels such as the Apogee divas with high-powered solid-state And I have owned hybrid horns but where the horn covers most of the frequency spectrum down to about 200 Hz. Trouble is I had to blend a woofer and a sub to those and felt like I couldn't get it 100% so I am moving away from them. I just can't stand to listen to you postulate about something you obviously know absolutely nothing about. My pet peeve is going on these forums and seeing all this misinformation by people who speak with total authority. Just admit you're wrong and that you've had a very little or perhaps no experience with horns.
This has been a fascinating thread to read, and I have to give thanks to Kosst for his/her insistence and multiples of repetition which has allowed for an exceptional discussion with educational and informative (at least for me) posts by many who obviously know and understand horn speakers so well. So Thank You K for being so minded on the subject...it has allowed for a very open discussion, in response.
I did a lengthy in-home demo of the Volti Audio Rivals, a speaker that has been recommended to the OP. This was my first time living with a horn-hybrid speaker. The 15 inch paper cone woofer operates below 400HZ (I believe, but I’m not 100% on this). It is an excellent speaker and offers the OP a check on all four of his attributes.
My 2ch audio room is very ’normal in size (read not large).
The Volti’s had very good imaging, and actually imaged slightly better than my current speakers.They also disappeared in the room and were not ’honky’ or ’shouty.’ Size-wise they also felt normal in my room. They are also very flexible with respect to room placement and with easy tuning via the external crossover network by resistors and the capacitor. The internals are easily accessible and very well laid out.
Early in the thread there was a mention of the Tekton Design Double Impacts as a recommendation. These are my current speakers (with the basic upgrade). I can also recommend these for all four attributes as well.
I enjoyed the Rivals so much that I am open to one of Greg Roberts’ full horn designs, which require some time as I need to save up for it.
Both the Rivals and the Double Impacts are great speakers, but are different.
Again a massive word of thanks to so many who have posted such valuable information and for your experience and wisdom on the topic.
Kosst you say "at the cost of focussed dispersion". I find it odd that you regard that as a negative. I myself and plenty of others that I know regard that as one of the positives of a horn. That way you get less unwanted room interactions. Definitely not good for entertaining though as the sweet spot is small. Anyhow I understand that you're saying you don't like horn's and I'm completely fine with that, to each their own. It's just when you're saying things that are blatantly false that I feel the need to set the record straight.
For explosive dynamics you need a large speaker with the following specs: 1-dual 15" woofers, at the minimum. 2-at least a 2" compression driver for the highs 3-high efficiency ion less than 96 dB 4-all the above plus bi-amplification, with a bi-amplifie large system you have a good chance of reaching your goal of explosive dynamics. I have one such system, it is JBL 4350, a four way bi-amplified monster. I mainly listen to classical, these JBL's can do justice to uncompressed orchestral recording like no other speaker with a very transparent full range sound.
+1 Vahes but I would add that an exponentional horn tweeter can be substituted by a BIG beefy mid range and a conventional tweeter. Horns work great but there are a few powerful non-compression mid drivers out there.
If you google JBL 4350 you will see the full specs. The lower end has two 15" driver that extend up to 250Hz. The upper end is three way with its own passive crossover, starting from 250 to 1.1Hz a big beefy 12" cone driver does the honors, above that and up to 9kHz a 2" compression driver, and above 9kHz to 21kHz another ultra high compression driver. I use two 200W power amps for the high and low ends along with an electronic crossover set at 250Hz.
Phusis I just checked out Simon mears and those look like some beautiful speakers you have! I bet they sound fabulous!
Thank you, and yes - I find they are marvelous sounding speakers. In the words of reviewer Kevin Fiske, if I may:
... there is no co-driver interference between the three elements of the Ucellos and the integration is clean and seamless. I heard absolutely no sense of cupping with voices – and that, I am told, is frequently a trait exhibited by horns. And the Ucellos’ dynamic range is simply extraordinary. They have a matchless ability to portray the softest, most subtle information on recordings, then in the next millisecond almost blast you out of your listening chair with a crescendo so fast and so loud it feels as if it might wake the dead.
The moderator really sensors things so I will not elaborate. Pure Audio Project Loudspeakers. I have the Neo 15, with Voxativ full range driver running mids,highs. Maybe not most dynamic in absolute terms ,but oozes musicality. If you want more lock on precision and not so forgiving of bad recordings this modular speaker has a fantastic compression horn option with the beautiful wooden horn and priced less then half of it`s Competition.
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