Kevn, You are right there is much more to sound than hearing. There is feeling and that is a real problem for many if not most systems. They do not feel right. There is this one elderly, totally deaf gentleman that listens to music by feeling it. There is a YouTube video on him you might be able to find. At a live performance it is that visceral sensation that adds that extra thrill missing at home. My mission has always been to reproduce that thrill at home but still maintain timbral accuracy. Imaging and accuracy are good things to shoot for but if the system does not feel right it is all to naught.
The Absurdity of it All
50-60-70 year old ears stating with certainty that what they hear is proof positive of the efficacy of analog, uber-cables, tweaks...name your favorite latest and greatest audio "advancement." How many rock concerts under the bridge? Did we ever wear ear protection with our chain saws? Believe what you will, but hearing degrades with age and use and abuse. To pontificate authority while relying on damaged goods is akin to the 65 year old golfer believing his new $300 putter is going to improve his game. And his game MAY get better, but it is the belief that matters. Everything matters, but the brain matters the most.
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mijostyn4, ... agreed and perhaps this "feeling" aspect is most evident when it comes to PRaT. For some listeners, this is a crucial aspect of enjoyment and speaking as one such listener, my impression has always been that this is much more of a "whole body sensing" experience than an "aural" experience. Above all, I want to feel emotionally involved in the listening experience and given the above, it would appear that my body must be involved in order for my emotions to be engageded. I'm sure this is not the case for everyone. I'm very curious about the nature of the "thrill" you associate with live perfromances. What is different about live music? Most obviously, the audience occupies the same space as the muscians and we experience the music in the company of others. At first I thought it must be the presence of visual information -- the ability to see the expressions on musicians' faces and their body language, for example, that might account for the "thrill". Then I recalled that if I'm really absorbed in the music at a live show, I habitually close my eyes, to screen out visual distractions. I'd be very interested to hear more about what you believe constitues the "thrill", if you care to expound... |
Imaging and accuracy are good things to shoot for but if the system does not feel right it is all to naught.The most important "feeling" will come associated with the right voices and instruments timbre perception... For sure we could be thrilled by the loudness and dynamic bass of an explosion accurately reproduced on a system.... But music is not mainly this experience.... There is no right perception of a natural timbre without acoustic control in small room.... Go on youtube and listen some costly system....If you own system is relatively good for sure....some sound unrealistic, harsh, or unnatural....At any price and it is the room problem most of the times more than the gear itself... |
@mijostyn, "My mission has always been to reproduce that thrill at home but still maintain timbral accuracy. Imaging and accuracy are good things to shoot for but if the system does not feel right it is all to naught." I still want that at home but I'm more or less resigned to never being able to hear my favourite music in an uncompressed form. The loudness wars may or may not be over but recorded dynamic range remains a poor facsimile of a live performance. At least for the music I normally listen to. Just take look at the first 10 pages of the dynamic range database and you will notice that Pop/Rock music hardly makes an appearance. Even after some 60 or 70 years, in terms of recording quality it still remains a second class citizen compared to the likes of Classical and Jazz. Therefore I'd suggest a sense of humour as well as a feeling of eternal optimism is essential in this pastime since absurdity and audiophilia seem to clearly go hand in hand. https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr/desc |
@stuartk , You're right, I think the absurdity must be part of the attraction. Let's face it, we're not like the other 99% of the population. Unlike the vast majority for whom the medium is little more than about conveying the message. We seem to be far more passionate about our interest in the entire field of audio playback. It's not always about maximising absolute performance, some of us might also care about cosmetics, about brand/tribal loyalty, the relationship between ownership and self image, or perhaps about what someone else has said or written about a particular product, or what's domestically acceptable, and financially viable etc. The main point of contention, perhaps the only point of contention, seems to be when strong disagreement erupts over the suggestion of better sound quality / performance. This 'suggestion' (it's never more than that) can be conveyed by a multitude of channels. It might be coming from a reviewer, or perhaps some clever ad which tries to distract and bypass our critical faculty, or maybe even some enthusiastic poster on a forum like this. Perhaps the last 60 years of audio and it's lapse into relativism (nothing is objective) is merely a symptomatic of a much larger malaise. The world today seems more divided than ever, and trust in politicians, banks, global commerce must be at an all time low. The only thing we can be sure of is that money remains the only global language. The rest is very unclear. "And you know something is happening but you don't know what it is Do you, Mr. Jones?…" Suddenly we all seem to have become Dylan's Mr Jones. A quite absurd situation. |
@cd318" I very much enjoyed youir post. You mention both "passion" and "critical faculty" and it occurs to me that perhaps the defining hallmark of this hobby is a convergence of right and left brain activities. Arguments over whether the hobby is more about "music appreciation" or "gear appreciation" could be seen as an expression of the discomfort that can be generated by the tension by this convergence. We may prefer to veer to one side or the other, rather than hang out in the "no man's land" in between the polarities. And of course this has implications regarding your broader comments regarding society and culture wars. But, back to my main focus, audiophilia would appear to require a willingness and an ability to rapidly shift our primary focus from one lobe of the brain to another. There is also the very masculine, logical drive to pin things down-- know what's what--to organize and rank our experience (and by "masculine" I don't mean "male", necessarily). Contrast this with a more ferminine (again, not necessarily "female") impulse to approach experience from a more intuitive, global perspective that tends to be more focused upon what's arising in the moment and seeks to perceive what unites rather than differentiates, aspects of experience. I won't make generalizations about others, but I tend to operate more in the masculine mode when it comes to evaluating gear and more in the feminine mode when listening. I do realize this is not necessarily true for everyone! Having said that, I'd venture to guess most of us tend to generally rely more upon one mode than the other. Consider the arguments that continue to erupt regarding whether cables sound different ! How about this: Which aspects of this hobby are subjective? Which are objective? If we cannot even reach concensus on these questions, how can we hope to communicate? We end up, in effect, speaking two mutually indecipherable languages with the result being, as you suggest something like... And you say "Well, what does this mean?" and he screams back "you're a cow-- give me some milk or else go home!" |
@stuartk "But, back to my main focus, audiophilia would appear to require a willingness and an ability to rapidly shift our primary focus from one lobe of the brain to another." Yes, this is perhaps the most unpleasant and challenging task faced by thinking adults in the world today. How to bypass over self awareness? I first noticed this phenomenon as a student when I became aware of the pitfalls of pursuing a path of academia - especially an arts based path, but maybe sciences too. How was it, some of us wondered, that some untutored musicians could write such beautiful and timeless music (eg Lionel Bart) and yet some of most highly qualified professors of music couldn’t write anything interesting? Ditto for writers and professors of literature as well. That’s when the dreaded realisation that creation and analysis are entirely two different things! Suddenly the self imposed prisons of academia became visible as you realised why people like Lennon and Dylan thought so little of critics. In fact it was Dylan who wrote the lines that me and my friends sometimes liked to quote to excuse our laziness. "Your sister sees the future Like your momma and yourself She never learned to read or write There’s no books upon her shelf" Of course in real life Dylan was extremely well read, but we kind of saw his point. Anyway I guess you could say the same for listening for pleasure and listening to monitor. As soon as you become conscious of listening it seems to detract from the enjoyment side. Perhaps this is why so many hearken back to the days of childhood before they learned to analyse anything? Pink Floyd seem to have virtually made a career out of this phenomena. Perhaps it’s no wonder that so many artists prefer to leave this business (adult) side of things to managers so that they continue to play in their childlike creative state. For us audiophiles this transition between the two modes of thinking sounds fairly simple when we write it down but unfortunately this journey can be virtually impossible on occasion. I still remember the words of what one dealer wrote some 30 years ago as I was climbing on the lowest rungs of the Hi-Fi ladder. He casually confessed that even he with his top of the range incredibly out of reach uber expensive (Linn/Naim) system had days when it just didn’t do anything for him. That’s quite a daunting thing to read when someone is writing that about a system that costs 30 or 40 times more than yours. A respected Hi-Fi dealer at that! |
That’s quite a daunting thing to read when someone is writing that about a system that costs 30 or 40 times more than yours.I like your posts.... This one also.... Just a remark about the last sentence... Hi-FI induce neurotic reactions because people dont focus on basic first and second are hypnotized by the costly gear... In reality a "relatively good" audiophile experience cost peanuts if you stick to basic: mechanical, electrical and, most important, acoustical embeddings controls... I proved it to myself... Anyway my deepest regards.... |
cd318: I'm in agreement with your observations. I rarely "listen to monitor" except when evaluating potential purchases I usually find upgrades very stressful although I've managed to make good choices. Having to re-establish system synergy after upgrading a component can be dicey but again, I've done allright. I don't have the funds to regularly channel many thousands of dollars into audio, but the mere fact that I can afford modest upgrades every so often renders me suceptible to the very same syndrome you describe affecting the frustrated audio dealer. If one "listens to monitor" (or, said another way, pays more attention to sound than to what is being communicated by the music) one can easily miss out on the simple joy of listening for pleasure. I find that after an upgrade,there's a "honeymoon period" during which I tend to spend more time listening, due to the novelty of "better SQ" and over time, as my ears become habituated to the improvements, I tend to listen somewhat less. Inevitably, the upgrade bug bites, and at that point, I have to decide whether to ignore it and deliberately focus more upon connecting with the music or give in to the desire for novelty, in terms of resuming the ongoing quest for "better sound". I guess it's actually a blessing to not have too much money to spend on this hobby. Otherwise, I can see how one could spend all one's time chasing novelty, which would evaporate more and more quickly as one increased the frequency and cost of upgrades. One could end up like a hamster on a wheel, chasing something impossible to catch. I guess what I'm suggesting is that it's a matter of mental discipline to manage the part of us that craves novelty and try to keep ourselves (mostly) focused upon that "child-like" pleasure, if in fact, that's one's top priority. I recognize it's not this way for everyone. |
I get the frustrations of this hobby. The biggest obstacle these days is just being able to hear the gear somewhere. It's not like the 70s and 80s when hifi shops were as common as CVS. It's hard to optimize a system with limited opportunities to test and try various components. I just revised my stereo system a few months ago. I am absolutely enjoying it and focusing on software now. The music is glorious and some days makes my eyes wet and some days gives me goose bumps. And yes, there are days that it leaves me lukewarm too. The music is the same but state of mind varies. It took every bit of 5 months to revise my system and since I just retired it allowed me to focus much of my time on this hifi project. I do not change gear often- about a decade or more on average. This project started with a 2+ hour trek to a high end audio store. I could easily hear what I was missing. So I budgeted a good sum of monies and started the journey. The difference this time was not having to decide between food for the month or a new turntable, preamp, etc. I listened and researched. It was quite the effort with some unexpected great successes and a few failures. The key is time and effort. Like someone else said, "if you cannot easily tell the difference then go back." Once I get to a point that I am satisfied I am able to forget about the gear and enjoy the music. Making decisions about what gear to buy or changes to make is exhausting and stressful- like a building project. Once finished it is satisfying to have it and use it. |
@stuartk, sorry about my delayed response. The visceral sensation is created by frequencies below 300 Hz. It is in this region that room acoustics cause the most trouble. Go to a rock concert at a large indoor venue and you get very powerful one note bass, boom, boom, boom. Go to an outdoor venue and you get beautiful bass. However, small indoor venues like Jazz clubs and larger indoor venue where acoustics were appropriately managed like Boston's Symphony Hall can give you wonderful sound. But the small rooms we usually listen to our systems in literally choke the bass below 100 Hz. Getting these frequencies right requires clever acoustic management, a lot of power both amplifier and driver and digital room control. Very few if any speaker systems have the ability to produce bass accurately, they do not go low enough nor can they project that kind of power into a small room listening environment. I hear this all the time, "but, my speakers are rated to go down to 30 Hz." Right, at one meter in an anechoic environment. Put it in a room and you are lucky to get anything with verve below 80 Hz., virtually nothing below 40 Hz. If you try to correct these systems digitally they start distorting because they can't handle the power and many amplifiers just do not have the power to do it. To get it right you have to have a lot of subwoofer power and a lot of amplifier power. A point source system requires at least two 15" or four 12" drivers to do it with reasonable distortion levels. A line source system requires four subs 12" or larger. This will get you to 100 dB with low levels of distortion which is enough to replicate the visceral sensation you get at a concert in a room with good acoustic management. You can play a concert video and feel like you are at the concert and in many ways it is even better than a real concert. You get much better visualization of the musicians, the sound quality is actually better than at most large indoor concert venues and you do not have to deal with parking and crowds. cd318, what is going on is we are being screwed, all of us, every last one of us. Our money is being forcibly removed from our pockets and spent on maintaining political power and accumulating wealth usually to make corporations and certain voting blocks happy. We should all be fighting together to stop this. They are getting us to fight instead with each other. We need term limits and campaign finance reform fast before we become a police state. Humans need a reason to perform. Without that reason they devolve into apathy. The second amendment is not about guns. It is about keeping our government at bay. Watch what happens when they are not scared of us any more. |
@stuartk, sorry about my delayed response. The visceral sensation is created by frequencies below 300 Hz. It is in this region that room acoustics cause the most trouble. Go to a rock concert at a large indoor venue and you get very powerful one note bass, boom, boom, boom. Go to an outdoor venue and you get beautiful bass. However, small indoor venues like Jazz clubs and larger indoor venue where acoustics were appropriately managed like Boston's Symphony Hall can give you wonderful sound. But the small rooms we usually listen to our systems in literally choke the bass below 100 Hz. Getting these frequencies right requires clever acoustic management, a lot of power both amplifier and driver and digital room control.First point: room acoustic can be controlled mechanically in a more powerful way than electronically... Second point: i listen cello,tuba, and piano not heavy metal then over 40 hertz clear bass is enough and i have it in a 13 feet square room...I have a 52 watts amplifier, my sub is disconnected because i dont need it and any way only one sub in a small room is not ideal at all.... Third point no generalization are good.... There is different needs and different methods to reach a goal.... |
mahgister, how much experience do you have actually measuring room acoustics and correcting defects with both acoustic management and digital EQ? Do not tell me you can do it with your hearing because no one can even well trained mastering engineers can not EQ an environment by ear. They pull out the measurement microphone. I suggest you buy one. What you will see when you measure your system is a mess. If there is an exception to my generalization I have not seen or heard it. When someone tells me they have "clear" bass that usually means they have almost no bass below 80 Hz. Because if you did without digital EQ the bass would be muddy and confused. |
mahgister, how much experience do you have actually measuring room acoustics and correcting defects with both acoustic management and digital EQ?How much experience do you have actually "listening" to the same room acoustic with both passive materials treatment and active mechanical controls with a grid of 32 Helmholtz resonators finely tunable each one? it is exactly like piano tuning by human ears but it takes some time because it was not my professional job... When someone tells me they have "clear" bass that usually means they have almost no bass below 80 Hz. Because if you did without digital EQ the bass would be muddy and confused.It is IMPOSSIBLE to have the tuba melodic line clearly with only 80 hertz bass... I have it then my bass is clear to a point around at least 50 hertz and even under, but less so clear .... If i choose to disconnect my sub there is a reason....I am limited by the specs of my speakers even if they are spectacular with bass.... This cd contain one hour of tuba notes.... A very fine cd i recommend it.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olIrf-uioD8 They pull out the measurement microphone. I suggest you buy one. What you will see when you measure your system is a mess.I dont doubt what you say here.... Are you surprized? But what you dont catch is that this "mess" is the result of my fine tuning for my EARS first...This measured mess is the speakers design response in my uncontrolled room...But after the finetuning of my grid relatively to my specific speakers response, it is no more an absolute mess, it is a "mess" correlated to my specific ears desire .... It is the way i hear timbre voices and instrument that is my rule for ALL THE ROOM .... Not a very selected range of frequencies for a very narrow location in millimeter out of which all your measures are a real mess... I will remind you that i listen from 2 positions in my room....Not just one.... And it is not an absolute mess at all sorry.....I am sure that your "clean" acoustic will not be so good for me...But will sound artificial.... I think you dont understand that my speakers specs are not modified by the electronic equalization like in your case, my mechanical equalisation is carried out continuously by devices which are now part of my room and they modify the room without modifying the speakers responses even if i used in my own way with my H.R. grid the speakers responses ....And the fine tuning by ears use the relatively large band of voice timbre coming from the speakers and is very "finely" tunable at any time.... No electronical equalization can replace a room acoustic treatment ....NONE...An E.E. is not a room treatment at all... But my mechanical equalization is a ROOM tretament ALSO, and not only an equalizer on his own right also, adapted exactly to my speakers timbre response (not frequencies response) without modifying their natural original design colored response....Like your equalization.... |
@mijostyn: many thanks for the detailed response. I've grown to accept my system's limited bass response (monitors without a sub). If I had a dedicated room, I'd treat it, but that's not an option at this point. @tonywinga: " Making decisions about what gear to buy or changes to make is exhausting and stressful- like a building project". I gave up buying gear I couldn't demo at home with a return policy a long time ago. While this does somewhat limit my choices, it also eliminates the risk of costly mistakes and therefore, reduces, to some degree, the level of stress. |
stuartk ...
Try a ten-pack of SR HFT's and install them around the room as directed. They are so small that no one will know they are there. Plus, they are easily removable if you live in a rental and decide to move. In addition, there is a 30-day return policy if you're not happy with them. https://highend-electronics.com/products/sr-hft-high-frequency-transformer They transformed my room and finally got the bass under control. Frank |
@stuartk, I guess what I’m suggesting is that it’s a matter of mental discipline to manage the part of us that craves novelty and try to keep ourselves (mostly) focused upon that "child-like" pleasure, if in fact, that’s one’s top priority. I recognize it’s not this way for everyone. No, but it probably should be. With so many conflicting priorities and demands and only so much money and time it’s far from easy. Demands can come thick and fast and from surprising directions. Audiophiles I think tend to be the cerebrotonic ectomorphs that Eric Berne wrote about. I’m guessing that we are prone to getting mentally overloaded from time to time and thus it’s extremely important for us to have our place to retreat to. We also need understanding people around us who can also appreciate the level of support that we tend to provide. @mijostyn, "what is going on is we are being screwed, all of us, every last one of us. Our money is being forcibly removed from our pockets and spent on maintaining political power and accumulating wealth usually to make corporations and certain voting blocks happy. We should all be fighting together to stop this. They are getting us to fight instead with each other. We need term limits and campaign finance reform fast before we become a police state. Humans need a reason to perform. Without that reason they devolve into apathy. The second amendment is not about guns. It is about keeping our government at bay. Watch what happens when they are not scared of us any more." Very wise words indeed. But what to do? The ancient tactic of divide and conquer still seems to be working remarkably well in 2021. Don’t get disheartened, the sun will still shine. Everything else will come and go. Look after yourself, your loved ones and spread the word where you can. Everyone must discover and learn for themselves. That means being able to focus, to asses and understand, and then be able to later recall and explain to others - nothing less than the Feynman technique in a nutshell. Sadly it’s not for everyone. All of Freud’s warnings about the death instinct being a subversion of libido seemed ridiculous when I read them 30 years ago. I always thought the old man was too pessimistic. Ha, but I don’t now! Is this really 2021 or is it 1921? The terrible shock of WW2 seems to have totally worn off now and who knows where we’re heading now? Some of us might still want to live in a civilized world where equality of opportunity is available for all, but sadly all human beings are not like this. Any car driver will tell you that. All the best. |
