The Border Patrol DAC - Maybe linearity in a DAC is bad ... Spitballing

@charles1dad

@nonoise

Because all these listening impressions are done knowing the brand/price/looks.

Unless you are doing double-blind, quick-switching, level-matched comparisons, it is scientifically impossible to thoroughly compare the sound of two different products. So Michael Furmer’s story of how he heard a difference in his $18,000 speaker cables when he was in another room working while another person wired them up, cannot he taken as there truly being a difference, even if he believes so.

I could make my own speaker cables for $100, give a BS description, charge $5000, and I gaurentee you if I do a demo at an audio show, I will get positive reviews and maybe even a customer or two.

There is no way the Benchmark DAC could remove the soundfield information of being recorded in a church, the placement of the musicians, etc. Those comments easily show that it’s all in his mind. You can talk about tonal balance, distortion, noise floor, channel separation, etc., but saying it removes the church walls is just ridiculous.

And again, the Benchmark is proven to be not cold, regardless of sighted listening impressions. Being cold is a rolled off bass (or emphasized treble; kinda the same thing if volume matched), and the Benchmark is dead flat. It could only have rounded off bass if your speakers were made with tube amps in mind, very few exist today (I only recall seeing 1 brand), but maybe if your speakers are from the 60’s.

I hate to repeat this, but a speaker at an AES myth busting talk gave a story of how he tricked people into thinking a McIntosh tube amp was playing when in fact it was a solid state, and the people described it differently than the same solid state amp it was supposedly being compared against. If doctors have to give sugar cube placebos to make sure drugs work, you can bet our ears can be fooled in what we are hearing (just like our eyes were fooled with the color of the dress a while back).

@mzkmxzv,

You hydrogen based life forms are funny. Anyone can be tricked, even those who adhere strictly to measurements. It is with long term critical listening that we appreciate the differences and distinctions. 

Quick switching (A/B/X, whatever) is nothing more than a cheap parlor trick. Even your ears would be fooled into thinking you're hearing an excellently measured piece of kit about half the time when it's not.

Sighted references are just that and no amount of back seat psychobabble will account for all the situations as there are people who can overcome the stupidity of listening tests because they do have better ears. It's statistically inevitable that they can. Do the math since you're so good at it.

Also, all of your anecdotal evidence is just that. For every story you dredge up, there are those that prove the other point of view. And please, everyone, don't let someone dictate what "cold and sterile" is for you as mzkmxzc states.

For me, it's an unemotional and dry presentation. It can be full of bass and have what most would consider a normal treble but where it fails for me is a deficit of tone, body and timbre: a threadbare presentation. It simply won't pass the test of fooling anyone in an adjoining room or even off to the side  that something live is playing. It will measure well but it will not sound right.

All the best,
Nonoise

Reichert is a very experienced listener and professional reviewer who additionally had access to the live Chesky studio and master file. He had access to both DACs and could compare directly.  It doesn’t get much better than this in terms of knowing the actual sound of the recording you are listening to. 

 He is quite adamant that he heard musical information that was present on the master file  and subsequently conveyed convincingly with the BP .  The BM was notably inferior  under these listening circumstances according to him..  he simply and honestly reported what he heard. I don’t believe for a moment there are any ‘mind games’ being played here.  

One may not like the results of his listening sessions but he is reporting what he experienced.  In this scenario one DAC was clearly found to be better than the other, in this case the better sounding DAC happened to be the BP 
 Charles

He is quite adamant that he heard musical information that was present on the master file and subsequently conveyed convincingly with the BP .

Yep, and looking at the measurements, the lack of linearity is an interesting clue, one which supports a hypothesis I have suspected before I even heard of the BP DAC:
DAC’s are too linear. Very linear DAC’s cut off faster. DAC’s with compression are more revealing, without the frequency response aberrations associated with "revealing" speakers.

I’m going to try to prove this in 2019. :)

Best,
E

I was told how superior digital was when it was introduced. It sounded terrible to me. It’s only been in the last few years that I’ve heard material played on digital systems that provided a convincing illusion of musical reality.
The numbers, aside from questioning whether they are ’testing the right thing,’ also don’t reflect what gear sounds like in actuality, playing music. I remember hearing Spectral stuff back in the day- very precise, accurate, etc. (I owned Crosby modded Quad 63s at the time that confederation of West Coast audiophiles was using and modding such gear). To me, it sounded unnaturally precise- too precise if there can be such a thing. Real instruments don’t sound like that to my ears.
I know that puts us into a relativistic universe. I don’t rely on the opinions of others, no matter how credible. I’ve got to hear it for myself, preferably on my system, with a diverse assortment of material (still, in my estimation, the biggest bugaboo in this game- the source material often varies considerably in sonics, even different iterations or masterings of the same recording). I prefer to evaluate equipment using ’regular’ recordings, not audiophile spectaculars since I don’t usually listen to audiophile records as part of my musical diet.
One other factor- not sure how much it is taken into account when people listen at shows or in similar environments- how much ambient noise is affecting what you are hearing. I don’t tend to listen at LOUD levels, preferring to get as much musical information as I can at modest dB. To do that, you not only have to work with the noise floor of the system, but the surrounding noise of the listening environment. It’s pretty instructive to take a dB meter into your room and see just how noisy it is--
I don’t think you need ’golden ears’ to hear these differences. You do need access to the equipment, though, and often, that’s not in environments that are optimized for critical listening....