I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Thanks for asking about my summer , so far so good , the cooler and wetter spring has helped hold off the hot and dry summer forest fire season here in Oregon .
Tom has been working with internal wiring for a long time so I'm hoping he finds the Cardas chassis wiring as musical as both beetlemania and myself . For me the synergy of the Cardas wiring both internal and external are a perfect match with Thiel speakers .
theaudiotweak
after reading an earlier post by you I started replacing as many screws as I could , on the speakers , on the crossover boards , on the turntables tonearm base and even on the fuse panels outer cover ( only 6 screws so why not ) . I tested screws on the amp , CD player , phono preamp and outlets , while they are not ferrous metal I will end up replacing them as time goes on , like you say a few dollars so why not .
For temporary listening test only!!!!! Remove and then replace after testing the front panel and door assembly and take a listen to the improvement. I plan on having the machine shop I use that makes my brass parts for string instruments fabricate a hinged all-brass cover assembly. I think the magnetic fields generated within the box are disturbed by the ferrous cover plate. These newly bent magnetic fields are reflected back into the same box and become a part of the power signal that travels to your components and elsewhere, Ideally an entirely new box and cover plate should be constructed and installed by a licensed professional. That would be a serious mod and undertaking. TomD
@jafant That Ayre uses Cardas wire so extensively is a clue that they source their copper from domestic sources, certainly not China. Charles Hansen was a huge fan of Cardas. And he posted at audioasylum regarding his experiences visiting speaker and electronic manufacturers in China. I think that informed his resolve to source as much as possible from domestic suppliers.
To my ears, the Cardas hookup wire was a really nice improvement over the OEM wire in my 2.4 upgrade.
When replacing a magnetic metal with a non-magnetic material, it's important to understand the function of the part. Often a chassis acts as a Faraday Cage where the entire envelope is engineered as a whole. Sometimes there are electrical value compensations for metals in proximity to circuitry.
I'm reminded of beetlemania's 2.4SE XOs, which turned out to be (late) made in China. The coils were different values to compensate for the electrical traces on the back side of the board. When we remanufactured his XOs on masonite, we returned to original coil inductance values to keep performance on spec.
Also, non-magnetic metals support electrical fields, which can be germane.
I have mu metal panels I have received to overcome the magnetic field of each speaker inductor from each other. Since this purchase I have seen reference to a woven shield that appears to be more effective and is easily pliable to form around more complex shapes. Makes me wonder if wooden tops or an entire chassis would present a better sound from any given audio component. The magnetic field could escape instead of being re aimed back at critical components. Tom
Tom - that reflection is real. Shielded cable has a ’sound’ due to inward reflection of propagation field effects. Unshielded sounds better when it can be used in benign circumstances.
I’m reminded of Thiel’s early electronics. The 01 and 03 generations all had equalizers built in electromagnetically ’open’ enclosures. The sides were wood, the front was acrylic and the back was aluminum. The EQ required careful placement, away from transformers, etc.
I’m a big fan of distance rather than shielding. Outboarding the XO provides enough distance from the driver fields, and the opportunity to spread out the xo components. Thiel’s home theater products incorporated bucking magnets on the drivers (at least the woofers). In addition to containing stray fields regarding video interference, they focus the field in the gap and clean up the electromagnetic soup inside the speaker. Win-win.
I moved my Thiel's to a larger room (from my smaller office)and I finally heard them stretch their wings. However, my Benchmark gear, which I want to use in this room, is better suited to 2 other speakers that I am now more interested in, the KEF Blade 2 META and the Yamaha NS5000. I have now learned that the Thiel's work great in this larger room and so will the other 2 speakers. I was not sure about that due to the required close front wall placement.
I am going to be selling my Thiel CS3.7's but the original shipping boxes were not well taken care of by the previous owner. The boxes are good for packing and loading into a SUV but not for FedEx, UPS, et al. Any suggestions as to the best way to ship them? If I figure out a way to ship then I will put up a FOR SALE ad.
Ideally, I could find a Southern CA buyer. I bought almost 2 years ago from a guy 100 miles away and picked them up. The speakers were internally in ridiculously bad shape. I wrote up about the problems on this thread back in Oct 2020. Speakers are of course now sonically in perfect shape. I had them measured after all the work I did by accuratesound.ca.
Mitch Barnett of Accurate Sound, remotely helped me find bad wiring on the drivers. This was done by the original owner. I have now installed brand new drivers, fixed threading problems on some screws (likely a dealer butcher job). Fixed soldering on some wiring with Rob's super solder.
I have updated my Livingroom system with some photos, mainly of the room when working with dealers for my next speaker.
Anyone looking for replacement tweeter voice coils for the CS3.6 or CS2.2, I've got a new set of ScanSpeak 290059 D3004s I'm going to unload. PM me and I'll make you a good deal and thanks...
@trickeydude ..... I am going to give you some advice based on personal experience .... very specific ... that may help. Far and away the most cost-effective driver for the thiels is an Adcom brand power amplifier model 555ii. It is highly transparent and highly capable of driving any Thiel speaker made, including yours. Buy it used and only if it is in good shape and un-modified and it should run $400-500. Pair it with an older Audio Research Corporation preamplifier from their SP6 series .... preferably an SP-6B but any SP-6 preamp will qualify. ...Note stay with the "6" series for both price and sound quality (you will find SP5s, SP8s, SP9s, SP10s, etc. Some "6"s can now be had in decent shape in the $600 range. Between these two pieces you will have a quality "high end" amplification system to match the quality of the Thiel 3.6's you have so fortuitously received (wish I had a neighbor like that!). For now plug in your turntable, cd player, or tuner (or the tape outputs on whatever receiver you are currently using to get FM) and listen. If you want to upgrade later any of these your speakers and amplifiers will be good enough to quickly reveal the improvement.
If even the above recommendation seems beyond your budget, you many be better off just selling the Thiels. They should bring somewher betwee$850 and $1300 on the used marketplace. if properly marketed.
@jafant Thanks for this thread. It made my CS3.7 ownership a very high end endeavor.
This morning I played the CS3.7's with my Class A KRELL 175XD and my Benchmark LA4 preamp. This was in the big room I moved them too. It sounded amazing, better than the single Benchmark AHB2. Which I have stated many times is not my preference for the CS3./7's (even the monos).
However, this morning I also sold the CS3.7's and will be packing it up today and deliver to a local buyer. It was a great ride and a bucket list item.
trickydude - I’ll elaborate a little on Harry’s recommendation. I have and use and concur with him on that Adcom amp. But my experience with it taught me a few things. The original Adcom GFA555 was designed by Nelson Pass, as were many of Adcom’s amps. The MkII was not - it shared a chassis, but was otherwise a French design with somewhat different characteristics, far higher parts count and circuit complexity. (Reviewers and many users like the MkII better.)
Enter another twist of vintage gear - upgrading. There are folks who upgrade select vintage amps for better performance than was possible when that piece was new. One such upgrader is Jim Williams of Audio Upgrades in California, who concentrates on pro gear - rebuilding recording consoles, etc. Great work at very reasonable prices. JW offers an upgrade to Nelson’s original GFA555 which he considers a superior design to the MkII. I suggest that an original GFA555 might be found for very short money and my experience says that a JW AUDIO UPGRADE for it will produce stellar amplification for your Thiels. (Note: I’d love to trade my MkII for an original NP so I could do what I am suggesting.)
Note that Nelson and Jim were peers and each used the other’s products from the 1970s onward.
Thank you for the kind words. Like the other Panel members, I am a fan and owner of this particular Loudspeaker brand. An avid Music lover as well. Even though you sold your CS 3.7 speakers, you are still a valued member of the Panel. Besides, you and I are Sony ES fans to boot!
Reading this thread, you will find your way back to a Thiel model in the future.
Thank you for the update. Vitus Audio is a Top tier brand to be sure. You are the 1st Panel member to represent this company. Perhaps this company will pick up here in the U.S.A in the future. I am interested because these guys build a killer CD/SACD player to match its Integrated Amp. Keep me posted as you massage this amp into your room and system.
Thank you for your experience and wisdom here. Good to read that Jim and Nelson traveled the same circle. Nelson’s gear is a Sonic match for our beloved loudspeakers. Adcom, First Watt and Pass Labs offer goodness from yesterday and today. I will keep a watch for an original Adcom
GFA 555 amp. I see one quite often around the net.
Coda amps are also a good sonic match for Thiels. And I’m sure it’s no coincidence that this may have something to do with the fact that the folks behind Coda Technologies, Doug Dale and Eric Lauchi, worked with Nelson Pass when all three were together at Threshold. And very much like Pass designed amps, Coda amps do much of their heavy lifting in Class A along with the type of high current that make Thiel speakers sing.
JAFANT - In my 20 years, we never had any Adcom in our factory. We were, however, familiar with it since many of our dealers carried it. Jim took the somewhat eccentric stance that it was other peoples' job to deliver 'proper' amplification. His job stopped at the input terminals. My assessment, at that time and continuing to the present, is that Thiel would have benefited from a more inclusive systems requirements approach. A $2000 pair of speakers is out of place, in my opinion, requiring a $10K amp to supply its peculiar needs. Jim felt that his highly resistive / non-reactive load characteristics made up for the very low impedances. But, the amp stable was severely reduced. In my opinion, many of the long-standing and ubiquitous criticisms of Thiel speakers as 'bright, in your face, aggressive', etc. are due to amplifier distress.
Anyhow, the first Adcom amp I personally heard / evaluated is the one I bought a couple of years ago with a pair of Thiel CS3.5s supplied from a member of this forum. I think the speaker needs 'better' to reach its potential, but it's better than most.
"In my opinion, many of the long-standing and ubiquitous criticisms of Thiel speakers as 'bright, in your face, aggressive', etc. are due to amplifier distress."
I couldn't agree more. I've owned 2.3s, 7.2s and now 3.7s. In addition, when a friend worked at a high end shop, for about a 6 year period, I did virtually every install and set-up with him, including Thiels (and other brands). Thiel models included, 1.6s, 1.7s, 2.3s, 2.4s, 6s and 7.2s which I was involved with multiple times.
On my first trip to the store, I was temporarily renting (had relocated to the area) waiting for a house to be built and I ended up buying a Rega Planet CD player for my temporary set-up in the rented townhouse. They had a pair of 3.6s in the showroom but I never got to hear them. Between work, work travel and staying on top of the contstuction by the time I got back to the showroom the 3.6s were gone. I didn't start going out on installs/set-ups until after I closed on the house several months later and got settled in.
I've heard good and bad set-ups with Thiels. Mostly good as when people came in to buy a whole system, they generally played something appropriate for the speakers. There were those who just bought speakers and sometimes what they had didn't sound very good to me.
Thank You for the Cardas follow up. I have a good feeling that this whole Covid-19 situation will make Audio companies re-think business dealings with china.
I'm having a 555 sent here to compare to the 555 II. Then the 555 goes to JW for upgrade. When it comes home I'll re-compare to the 555 II and let you guys know.
I have a pretty good idea how the mkII drives various Thiel models, so I'll develop an opinion (valid enough for myself) how the mkI compares to the mkII.
Hi everyone, I just broke a binding post on my CS6 because of over tightening the speaker cable. Is there a way to get replacement parts for these speakers?
Recommend contacting Rob Gillum, former long time Thiel employee, at https://www.coherentsourceservice.com/. He specializes in the servicing, maintenance and repair of Thiel speakers.
Thanks for the Adcom 555 recommendations. I’ll definitely check them out. Harry, you mentioned to me to go ahead and hook up my gear to the Thiels? Are you sure it won’t damage my Sansui? Obviously keeping the volume low would be prudent.
Maybe some Thiels are bright but a big chunk of that is about something else. Maybe personal or political or oven some sort of ethnic thing. They're mostly not bright and mostly not that hard to drive. My 2 2s were slightly warm hooked up to a <1k HT receiver. What 2k pair of speakers required a 10k amp? When was this? I'm not trying to be combative I'm having a hard time believing it.
jon - hyperbolic figure of speech. But, Thiels do require care in setup. A consistent source of the brightness disparagement came from show-goers making judgements from standing in the doorway. Thiels baked-in design constraint requires sitting down for proper driver integration. Another aspect of driver integration is the 8' minimum listening distance requirement, which when subverted causes sonic problems.
Whether it was cable or amps, Jim chose to use very good ones, beyond a $-balanced norm.
Prof - the little critter has become a different animal. I began experimenting with the CS2.2 and 3.6 but migrated toward smaller models for practical reasons. I collected a few pairs of 02s to further simplify my learning experiments. I soon learned that I didn't want to live with the 2nd order XO due to higher reactivity and difficulty time-aligning the wavefronts. Jim had always (in every product from the start) kept onset transients arriving in same polarity. (Whereas most 2-ways flip polarity for one or the other driver.) Your stock tweeter signal arrives a full cycle before the woofer (which sounds 'normal' due to its ubiquity.) That's very non-Thiel to my ear and sensibilities, so I ended up using CS.5 drivers and a first order crossover, moving the woofer forward on a standoff and the tweeter backwards behind a waveguide for . . . Phase Coherence.
Now, of course, diffraction and so forth become much more audible (you know my hypothesis) - not just to me, but to collaborators as well. So the cabinet edges are eased in an elliptical cross-section to meet the new (forward) super-baffle plane. Rear edge easing is also in the mix. Internal bracing (not visible) beefs up the panels. The diffraction-causing grille is gone, replaced by (most probably) a CS2.4 / 1.6 type arrangement, except I have no magnetic metals in my enclosure systems.
The crossover of the stock 02 is built on the rear input panel, right behind the woofer magnet, with audible and measurable distortion. In a portable speaker an outboard XO cabinet is a bit much, so I've mounted the XO on the exterior bottom of the cabinet in a plinth with ventilation holes. A chimney is under consideration to take heat through the cabinet and out a flared outlet in the top.
A big area of experimentation has been laminar wave-launch technology. It's not particularly visible, but no front or edge surfaces will be smooth or hard. Similarly the port looks like a 2" port, but it now contains patented and proprietary technologies that impart an uncanny realism. The increase in clarity, dimensionality and musicality are hard to describe and harder to explain, so let's not for now.
So, what's left of the 02 is the cabinet, the driver sizes and port, but everything is subtly to radically upgraded. I won't have a 'fix kit' for a normal 02. I know you love yours, but it is an ordinary if well-done second order 6.5" ported two way. My mission is to develop ways and means to improve performance beyond stock Thiel levels. The 02 emerged as my baseline platform due to its simplicity, flexibility and accessibility. My vision is for the Renaissance 02 to be a uniquely high-performance stand mount speaker with discrete drivers. It is fiction-ware in that no such product actually existed. I envision a limited edition inaugural run and that all this learning and solutions will be applied next to the CS3/3.5 which has gotten the bulk of my attention of late. Stay tuned, sorry to be so slow . . .
Pictures aren't appropriate. They change constantly and aren't yet very pretty.
Here are some photos of my Thiel 2.7 speakers set up in my listening/AV room.
The room used to be a single use 2 channel listening room. However in 2009 I got bit by the Home Theater bug and renovated the room in to dual duty: my 2 channel speakers now share the room with a projection based home theater, a large screen that has automated 4-way masking so it can change shape and size for the movie as required. The home theater surround speaker system is separate: Hales Transcendence speakers for L/C/R flanking the screen,Monitor Audio speakers for surrounds and rears.
The room was re-done with the input of an acoustician and my architect friend.
The ceiling is a drop down build that is actually stretched fabric (but looks solid) of brown felt. This is useful both for absorbing ceiling reflections from the screen so the image doesn't wash out. But also because all sorts of acoustic treatment/traps are hidden in there, and hidden elsewhere. It's a gorgeous sounding room and it's funny, even guests often remark when we are just sitting in the room talking "it sounds so good in here!"
I built out a bit of black velvet-covered "stage" area below the screen, and covered all the HT speakers in very dark black velvet. The result is that, unless the room is very bright as in the photo, you often can't even see those speakers against the velvet backdrop behind them, so you just see the Thiels, making for a less cluttered look. Best I could do given how much I was trying to fit in to the room! But it worked quite well.
All source and amps are down the hall in a separate room. I prefer a neat, tidy look that way. (In fact, the shag rug actually helps hide even the speaker cables to the Thiels. Horrors for those who use cable risers!)
If anyone remembers my long-ago posts on looking to replace the bigger Thiel 3.7s in this photo you can see my problem. The 2 channel speakers have to be pulled well out from the back wall. That's good for sonics, but also puts the right speaker out in to the entranceway path in to the room. The 3.7s were just a bit too deep making it a bit awkward walking in and out of the room. The 2.7s were just smaller enough so that they can go in the same spot, but they don't impede walking in and out of the room at all.
My Joseph Audio Perspectives are even smaller and less deep, so they work great too.
Pictures:
From the hallway just outside the listening/HT room :
Oh, I should mention you don't see the projector because it's actually hidden down behind the listening sofa. It's on a telescoping automated lift, so when you turn the home theater "on" the projector lifts up to over 6' high to project the image.
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