So great to hear about Rob's business!
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,614 responses Add your response
I was always on A’gon years ago, but brought back now with the final death of Thiel, Rob Gillum’s phoenix rising, and XO questions. I replaced the caps in my CS2.4 in 2011 and can clearly answer the questions asked so far. Only way in is by removing the passive radiator with their unusually-sized allen driver. Two separate circuit boards, for the low-frequencies on the base and the HFs on the back (above the binding posts). Unless you don’t solder, little to be concerned with because everything is so BIG and the circuit boards (in at least my earlier units) are made of wood. Best access is with speakers on their back. But even then, expect some contortions to all your work through a 7x10" opening. Thiel sent me a schematic of the crossover, and I believed Thiel's hours of assessments that the ClarityCaps SA gave the best sound. But I one-upped the 2.4SE with the next-higher model, the ClarityCap ESA. I replaced only these caps as they’re the only ones in-line with the coax actually passing signal, the others are paralleled for impedance matching and frequency contouring. I researched the caps as needed here, and there are probably newer better caps since 2011, though for a price. http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html and I bought them from PartsConneXion (a 27uF direct replacement and a 10uF || 3uF = 13uF). PCX will also match each pair of caps, a big plus for speaker consistency and imaging even with +-3% rated caps. I also bypassed them with the then-recommended Vishay MKP1837. Take a picture of the stock crossover before you start pulling it apart. I cut the Axons out but kept 1" of their leads to attach the new caps to, and then had to smoosh the larger caps in their place, snuggling them up around surrounding components. I used ShoeGoo to hold them in place to the base and/or adjacent caps to buffer them from vibrations. Once everything is laid out to your satisfaction only then fire up the soldering iron and complete the job. Just be VERY careful how you place your soldering iron as it’s very near a giant woofer magnet and a hot soldering iron being pulled through your woofer cone could make for a very bad day. After you’ve done one speaker, take a break for awhile. When you’re fresh, you’ll do the second speaker in half the time. It’ll take a long time for these caps to break in to the point where they sound better than what you took out, so put the FM white noise or CD player on repeat 24/7. Having become so familiar with my 2.4s stock, I can confidently say these new caps give a greater purity to the coax, greater air, delicacy and inner detail. Also, better imaging due to tighter cap tolerances around the crossover frequency. Not hugely night and day, but making a good speaker that much better for very little money and time. I’d post pictures if I could... |
While I'm posting for the first time in years, I can vouch for Rob Gillum's excellent solo work. I had a CS2.4 coax go silent on me a couple years ago, long after Thiel-proper was gone. To assure consistency, Rob had me send him both my coax drivers, which he rebuilt from the ground up using the latest adhesives and various tweaks developed since their 2004 inception, and their later (relatively) mass-produced manufacture. The sound of my 'old' coaxes was so firmly embedded in my ears that once the rebuilt ones broke in, there was no question I was hearing a purer, faster, more delicate sound, with better left-right matching too. Again, not night and day, but another notable step up to this long-term 2.4 listener. And the hope that these drivers will last 'forever.' |
@sdecker Wow, that is *super* helpful information. Thanks! Would it be easier to remove the entire boards and replace the caps with the crossovers out of the cabinets? Your post got me thinking that a "real" modder would probably mount the crossovers in an external box (ala Avalon Ascent) to completely isolate it from cabinet vibrations. LOL - that's not me :) (a 27uF direct replacement and a 10uF || 3uF = 13uF)From Tom Thiel, Dave Garretson and the image I linked elsewhere in this thread, the CS2.4SE coax values are 28 and 14 uF. Are the 27 and 13 numbers for the original CS2.4 or did you decide to alter the values? |
sdecker et al, it is important to keep the cap values consistent with the original design. Judging by your description, the 1uF bypass caps were left in place and the main caps replaced with SAs, thus keeping the total paralleled capacitance correct. Regarding outboard crossovers, tread lightly. The crossover network works in an environment of the woofer magnetic field and the close proximity between various crossover inductors as well as vibration. When finalizing a model, some values were sometimes slightly tweeked to adjust for that in-cabinet environment compared to the open-air development environment. Sharing our experiences will help in learning this subtle landscape without the resources of a full development lab. I am hot-rodding my PowerPoint 1.2s for studio monitors and must outboard the crossovers due to insufficient interior cabinet volume for the larger upgrade parts. I expect performance improvements from the combination of outboard mounting, greater proximity isolation (increased footprint), lack of woofer EM field and vibrations, point to point wiring, six nines hookup and choke wire . . . in addition to the higher-performance caps. Note, my PowerPoints are late-date manufacture from China. Although care was taken to spec first-rate parts, I can't know if the Chinese manufacturer used parts as sophisticated as Thiel in-house manufacture did. I am upgrading with all original-Thiel parts and techniques. I will journal my results by comparing an unmodified pair with the modified pair in the same system. |
I researched the caps as needed here, and there are probably newer better caps since 2011, though for a price.I gave a short look at this link. How does this guy have time and money to compare all of these, especially given the burn-in time? That top of the line Duelund looks interesting. Some of those sell for north of $800. Even if the OEM price is one-half of that, that would probably add $10,000 retail to put those in a pair of speakers! The writer quite liked the Clarity CMR and some of the Mundorfs. A DIYer with money could get carried away . . . |
Note, my PowerPoints are late-date manufacture from China.Tom, did *all* the manufacturing move to China? I recall reading years ago that the round cap on the CS3.7 had to be made in China because of quality issues. I didn't realize until recently that the drivers were also sourced from China. And, now, you're saying that the PowerPoint drivers were made in China. What happened in Lexington? Is all of this on the new owners? |
I am not expert on what manufacturing moved to China and when; I have not been involved with the company since the mid 1990s. At that time the only off-shore components were some European electronic components. My general impression is that the hi-fi music products were always assembled in Lexington, although some parts, including drivers, were made partly or wholly in China. Home theater products were made at increasing levels in China, more so after Jim's death in 2009. Testing and QC remained in Lexington throughout. These are my opinions developed from various conversations, but are subject to correction. I know from other involvements that it has become increasingly difficult to impossible to source many sophisticated components from North America / Europe due to changing market conditions. |
Tom, You wrote "Regarding outboard crossovers, tread lightly. The crossover network works in an environment of the woofer magnetic field and the close proximity between various crossover inductors as well as vibration." In my conversations with Rob on this, he said that size was indeed an issue for internal placement (this was re the 3.7), and that if one really wanted the best caps this would have be be an outboard mounting. Are you saying to forget about an outboard mod? |
Beetlemania, I looked at this link http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html too. Right -- how does this guy have the time, etc to review all these!? But it was interesting to read the various descriptions. I was a little wary of the "warm" sound described for the Clarity ESA and others. I don't want or like added warmth. I'm a classical musician, around live acoustic all the time in vastly differing venues. What I love about the Thiels is the clarity and ability to accurately reproduce timbre and transients. I don't want any of that rolled off. I realize that some (many) people actually like a warmer sound. Not me. |
@tmsrdg I can't even find the name of the person who compared all of those. What is their experience? What is their system? What are their biases and preferences? IOW, how credible are they and how do we translate those words in ways that help us know which caps should be on our short list? We get to "know" the hi-fi reviewers by reading their words and comparing that to what we experience when listening to the same product. Not much help for that in the case of these caps. One piece of credible info is that Jim Thiel and his team chose the Clarity SA for the CS2.4SE. Too bad we don't know what they compared it to. Also, Tom Thiel is steering us towards Clarity and Mundorf. One other brand that piques my interest is Cornell Dubilier but not sure if they make caps with the correct values for this purpose. In the end, I might just go with what Rob Gillum recommends. I'm hoping he'll have a kit with all the parts, schematic, and DIY instructions. |
By my A’gon membership count I’ve had 5 amp and preamp combos since joining the site, and that doesn’t account for purchases off the site. I think it makes 9 or 10 total. Could be more. I’ve had three - count ‘em three - pairs of CS 3.5’s, one pair of CS 3.6’s, and I forget my first three pairs of pre 3.5 Thiels. I am truly an audiot. I still have the guts of my last pair of 3.5’s, drivers, crossovers, nameplates, which I offered to someone here free if they can be picked up, but I forget to whom I made that offer. Consecutive serial numbers, but the midranges on either do not work. Hello Rob Gullom? VERY much worth having them repaired. As I’ve said before, one does not simply purchase Thiel, one invests in Thiel. Discovering Thiel on the used market has allowed me to experience what high fidelity is all about at a fraction of the original cost. |
It seems the site ate my detailed response. In summary, just be careful because you don't know what you don't know. Thiel (Lexington) parts selection was rigorous and knowledge-based. Don't assume you can get a whole-system improvement by throwing more money at it. Compare notes among ourselves. I will share what I find out in my upgrade efforts. Jim chose ClarityCaps SAs at that time, all things considered. CC replaced those with ESAs and now CSA's. I'll look closely at them. Mundorf recommendation came from Madisound based on wide comparative evaluation and user feedback. Dave Garretson is known among you as a trusted source of good information. Use him. Be very careful of unknown recommenders. Rob Gillum will make knowledge-based decisions. I will share the results of my PowerPoint 1.2 upgrade as it develops. Can photos be posted on this forum? |
There is this wonderful website with a long list of capacitors and their subjective "flavors". Excellent source to choose a "seasoning" to experiment. http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html |
Thiel has worked with Madisound since the 1970s, so they know that we want unflavored, technically accurate caps and resistors. I went to them for advice for my PP rebuild and they recommended Mundorf as the "winner" in their customer experience. Mundorf has a deep range of solutions and I have not yet chosen mine along their continuum. Thiel routinely bypassed good Solen PolyPropylenes with a smaller value of Styrenes. Styrenes are very expensive due to manufacturing losses; they have been replaced by higher-performance PPs. We coveted, but never used in my time, Teflon bypasses which are extremely clean, neutral and stable over a wide current range. If I were hotrodding an upper end Thiel, I would consider a Teflon bypass in the tweeter feed. My "lost" post included a note about hookup wire. I have seen people "upgrade" Thiel hookup wire. I don't buy it. Thiel (lexington) hookup wire is 99.9999%, long crystal, teflon jacket, 3 twists per inch. I've never heard or measured better from any boutique / branded wire. The only thing I am considering, because I must increase my lengths for my outboard crossovers, is Paul Spelz's AntiCable 3.1 for hookup wire. It is high-grade copper with only enamel insulation, similar to our six nines coil wire. Dielectric absorption is the problem. Teflon is great. Less coating is even better. |
Thanks for the added info, Tom. I will wait to see what Rob Gillum offers. I don't have time to pursue this now, anyhow. Just toying with the idea. If Mr. Gillum doesn't offer a DIY kit, I will probably start with the woofer feed given that my 2.4SEs already have Clarity Caps on the coax. I have seen people "upgrade" Thiel hookup wire. I don't buy it. Thiel (lexington) hookup wire is 99.9999%, long crystal, teflon jacket, 3 twists per inch. I've never heard or measured better from any boutique / branded wire.I trust your experience but I think I would at least try Cardas if I had the time and money. |
Cardas makes great cables. My hope is to supply subtle information that may not be obvious to all. Crossover networks can be very easily scrambled via changes with unintended consequences. Speaker cables are designed for unknown load characteristics and environments. These hookup wires operate in very specific conditions, and this particular wire configuration has been optimized via meticulous design. |
My hope is to supply subtle information that may not be obvious to all. Crossover networks can be very easily scrambled via changes with unintended consequences.I suspect I speak on behalf of this community in saying how grateful we are to have you here! I am very much interested in tweaking the last drop of performance out of my CS2.4s. But I have not the expertise, time, or money to try a multitude of mods. Your advice (and, hopefully, that of Rob Gillum) is *greatly* appreciated! I'm hoping you might write more about: If I were hotrodding an upper end Thiel, I would consider a Teflon bypass in the tweeter feed. |
Beetle, I am glad to be here. My hi-fi life has been fairly well buried until recently. Nice to find you guys. Regarding capacitor bypasses, we discovered in the 1970s what has now become fairly commonplace knowledge, that small value high-grade capacitor(s) in parallel with the workhorse will keep the upper frequency leading-edge waveforms, etc. intact at a higher performance level per cost than a single type cap. My brand knowledge is a couple decades old and lots of progress has been made, so I will be finding my solutions just like you guys. We don't have Jim's lab and expertise. Nonetheless, Thiel's development MO was to experiment with cap configurations via blind listening to rank sound quality among the combinations. Then the highest performance / cost solution was identified and subjected to rigorous analysis regarding waveform integrity, ringing and so forth. The winner was always a bypass pair or triplet. The rank of (affordable) cap types (at that time) from best downward was: Teflon, Styrene, Propylene (foil or metalized depending on current requirements), Polyester (Mylar) and electrolytic, with some variants such as Tantalum, oiled, etc. Mylar was a bargain because propylene was very expensive due to production losses, which is now cured. Notice that older Thiels contained multiples-in-series propylenes or mylars to make the value in order to reduce costs. (Eventually a wound film cap will fail in testing due to a thin spot in the film carrier, so cost rises geometrically with cap value.) Another thing that has changed is that Styrene caps (our favorite bypass) has been obsoleted in the marketplace. Teflon over propylene and/ or electrolytic has a high likelihood of success on those large value caps. Rule of thumb is to bypass at 1% to 10% total requirement, more or less. More for high current requirement. Example: 100uF EE + 10uF PP + 1uF Tef > 111uF value at much lower cost than eliminating EE. This whole upgrade enterprise runs contrary to the rigor we applied at Thiel Audio. But I am fairly comfortable flying blind since I do not have access or time to test with instruments. I am also fairly confident of my approach due to serious personal experience. I also will employ a few twenty-somethings including two young women with extraordinary hearing to supply observations beyond my present hearing acuity (I am 69 and ears suffer with age.) That's all for now. I'm expecting 4 XO kits for my PPs this week from Rob. I'll open my cap investigation and layout next week. |
This is easily one of the best, most informative and civil forums I've had the pleasure to come across on this site since joining, oh, about five years ago. There had been a rather lengthy stray from the "hi-fi" scene in my life, perhaps a 25 year long span, during which I listened - and rarely - through a series of vintage receivers from the 1970's; those Pioneer, Sansui, Marantz receivers still have a hold on me to this day. I believe I stumbled upon this site whilst actually looking for yet another relic from my mis-spent youth, in the process becoming beguiled by a tube amplifier someone had put up for sale. It's been all downhill since... In a good way, if that's possible. As I've said before, I don't know a mosfet from a misfit, but I know what I like. I may not be able to contribute anything substantive to the current and quite technological discussion currently being followed, but I read, as I have read in the past, with a keen interest in learning what it is about Thiel that captured me in the first place. A few years back with my first pair of Thiel 3.5's I opted, as a result of one of the midranges going in and out, to remove it to see what was causing it. In the process I slipped with the screwdriver and poked a small, but worrisome hole in the midrange's surround - not the driver itself. It was through this forum that I discovered Rob Gullom was still repairing drivers for the model, and so sent the pair off for repair. I gifted that pair to my nephew. So much of our possessions are disposable. So much of what we purchase IS disposable, designed for the short term with nary a forethought as to how much we consume and ultimately discard. The purchase of Thiel legacy models is an investment, not merely a purchase in and of itself. Fixing/repairing any model is indeed an investment, not a patch. There have been too many times here, in too short a span of time, that I've said "I'm done" upon finding a great system recently. (As if it's possible to reach that point.) I ain't done, and I never will be. Forums like this, with contributors who don't get snarky or preachy, are the reason why I keep reading, keep trading, keep interested. Thiel is special stuff, and the community of fellow fans continues to be a learning experience for me. |
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Circling back around to you -unsound it was a CJ MF 2300 and PV 10 pre-amp. I do not know much about CJ that old. Sounded pretty good as I wanted to attempt to dial-in my room. This week I have an opportunity to audition the newest Anthem STR integrated. I will post a report over the weekend for you guys. Stay tuned. Happy Listening! |
