@audition__audio +1
It is ridiculously stupid to suggest that tube watts are greater than SS watts. Tube amps sound "better" however to me and it's excatly about the even order harmonics, soft clipping, and the fact tubes have more linear transfer functions than transistors, so tube amplifiers usually need and use much less negative feedback.
Who makes this stuff up about tube watts being greater than SS watts??? lol Maybe it's how we define greater.....in euphonics. |
Tube watts are not greater than S.S. watts to say so is simply stupid. If you think you hear more volume with a tube amp it is simply distortion or clipping.
S.S. and tube amp designs each have a series of advantages. Much of which amp will be appropriate is determined by the specifications of your speaker. Efficiency is only 1 pertinent specification.
Regarding Roger Sanders and his opinions about anything audio related will be completely skewed by his devotion to ESPs.
I agree with leftears, some of the posters on this forum give the worst advice and seem to take every opportunity to complicate what should be relatively simple issues.
My advice is to avoid those posters who tell you to sell a product that you like and then give you a specific manufacturer whose product you should buy.
I see no disadvantages to gear that uses small signal tubes like DACs, preamps, etc. There are numerous reasons why S.S. amps deserve serious consideration in certain circumstances. |
I love, love love the information guys. My JL's are on the way and starting today I'm going to start checking out tube preamps. When I get the system together I will post a couple of pics and comment on the sound. Dave |
tobor007
Sounds like you like your speakers, are adding subs and like your amp. I'm with a couple of other posters and suggest trying a tube preamp to see if it gets you what you are seeking. I also agree with twoleftears, a 6SN7 tube preamp , but there are other choices.
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+2 twoleftears,
Lower sensitivity speakers just have to be matched.
Second HIGH sensitivity can lead to a high floor noise if your not careful, just depends on what your willing to listen to, and put up with.
A valve preamp, with those 601s will surprise you. There are a LOT of great sounding SS amps. A LOT. There are a lot of great sounding valve amps, too. Dollar for dollar. GREAT amps on either side can cost a few bucks..
A pure class a SS 30-60 watt amp will match, any 30-60 watt class a valve amp. WATT for WATT. The difference is when we turn it UP, I mean all the way up...
There is a big difference in distortion, I had Pass, Mark Livingston, Summo, and First Watt. They all preformed quite well with any valve amp I put them against. On the other hand, that was not the case when I reversed it. The valve amps, could not do the job when it came to bass performance. The distortion was through the roof...10-30% at the driver.
I've messed with 450-1200 watt of valve power, VTLs Wotons and SigII 450-750, both. They did a good job. with a 40,000.00 price tag. AND still couldn't outperform a GOOD SS in the bass region, or above 18-19Khz.
Dollar for dollar, no way 1/4 the cost 1/10 the distortion.
Now that's something to consider. From 100 hz to 19-20 khz. I'm a valve Guy all the way, But again in the summer months, just like now. Class Ds all the way...2 months or cool night, out comes the Mac and Carys, again.
Regards
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looking at the damping factor on the tube amps your bass will suffer. |
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This is just so typical of some posters here on the 'gon. The OP comes on looking for some reasonable advice about power amp or possibly preamp, and immediately he's told he make a big mistake and needs to get rid of his speakers. My recommendation is to sift carefully through the information you've been given so far. You can definitely go the beefy tube power amp route, but a lot of people find happiness with the tube preamp + SS power amp combo. There are some sweet tube preamps out there, particularly the ones with the 6SN7 tube. Check out some of the recent threads on the topic. |
Yes and for much less than $5995 you could have a Raven Osprey with even more tubey magic and being integrated save even more. But for the range the OP is in it would be a shame not to go for the Reflection. Check out willgolf who has owned one and compared with much of the world's finest and see what he has to say.
Mozart is right, there is no comparison, the choice is which do you value most. If its numbers then SS. If its music then tubes. It really is that simple.
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Hi tobor007
I think the most important decision you need to make is between quality or quantity.
“Tube watts were louder than solid state watts”, general statements like that scare me and can be misleading. There are too many other factors and variables that also need to be taken into consideration before making a blanket statement like that.
Like everything else, there are positive and negative aspects for everything in audio that have to be considered. Some of the negative attributes that tubes have is warmup time. From the time you turn on the piece, it will take anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours or maybe more until that piece sounds it’s best. You also don’t want to leave a tube product on 24/7 like you can with a solid state piece. Then you are going to probably want to change the factory tubes to some vintage nos (new old stock) tubes from the 1950’s or 60’s as these can transform a piece of gear tremendously. The nos tubes that are the really good ones like the Telefunkens, Mullard, Amperex, Siemens, Tungsol ect are very expensive and getting harder and harder to find. As the supply diminishes, the cost will continue to rise. The benefits of tubes, to mention just a few, would be accuracy of timbre and tonal beauty, more air and three dimensionallity around the instruments and better soundstage (sometimes).
Your comment on the amps never running out of power tells me you may want to try a good tube preamp and keep your solid state amps. You may find that this gives you the best of both worlds. That’s what I do and I love it. If you decide to give that a try I would need to know your budget and whether you prefer brand new or used before I could make any recommendations (assuming you would want me to).
Your speakers are are very power hungry as a friend of mine has a high end stereo store and used to sell that speaker so I’ve heard them many times and I’m very familiar with them. I used to have a Mac C52 solid state preamp which was good (not great) and when I replaced it with a PS Audio BHK Signature preamp, which sold for $1000.00 less and put some nos Telefunkens from the early 60’s in it’s place was so much more musical it wasn’t even funny. The tonality was gorgeous and the accuracy of timbre was much better. For a retail price of $5995.00 it’s a pretty good value compared to the prices of some of this other stuff out there. Those nos tubes made all the difference in the world. Best of luck.
Scot
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You could probably find someone to buy the Salons off you for more than enough to get a pair of Ulfberhts, or even Moabs with all Be tweeters, either of which would be at least a match for the Salons in tone and detail, and walk all over them when cranked up good and loud. Especially since they will allow you to run a high quality tube integrated that will walk all over your current Mac amps. Together you will have far better sound, able to play even higher volume, and with money left over in your pocket. Heck the money you are talking about spending on more McIntosh would get you into a new Raven Reflection that will cost less, sound better, and look way, way, way better. https://www.ravenaudio.com/product/reflection-mk2/ Being tube watts it would probably be better than your other choices even if you keep the unsuitably inefficient Revels. Just sayin. |
Thanks guys. Great stuff to consider. My last speakers were jbl 250ti's. Accurate? no. Powerful? Oh good grief. The Salons have a beautiful tone and good detail. Not best for powerful rock music, although with clean power they never seem to strain. Perhaps not the best choice but still great speakers overall. Down the rabbit hole for me? Probably. I have 2 JL Audio Fathom 112's on the way. Dave |
take any 70 watt ss amp vs my Jadis Defy 70 watter,, HA!, shootout at OK Coral,, ss pants shot down before he even had a chance to make his draw. |
recommend 95dB or higher. This alone will solve all your problems as going from 85dB to 95dB drops your power requirement by TEN TIMES! You can go from using all 300 watts and wishing you had more to being happy as a clam with a 30 watt tube amp.
You ideas are pretty much in line with my mine above
Exactly, he will need at least 35 watts to push a 85db speaker. Trans will have to be high performers =< Beefy>
Keep the 95 ravels', and find a 6550/kt88 which delivers 35+ <clean pure true > watts.
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I think its good ss fans are finally waking up to the superior musicality of a tube amperage.
Its suble, but its * The Real Deal*
ss wattage would fatigue my ears in 1 hour of less.
My tech guy was working on my Defy and lent me his ss Yamaha, not sure which modle,, old unit,,,lol,, wowo, aftera few seconds , i put it up,, and suffered w/o music a few more days.
<There is not a ss amp in the world which could meet my musiacl preference /acceptance standards.>
~~could n't resist, I am the #1 basher of ss labs.~~
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Do not be so concerned with wattage, a good hefty 50 lb tube amp will drive mosr mid sized low eff(89db/lower) speakers,
@ 50 lbs, (push pull, not SET), you'll have good trans to push the Revels.So you will need a tube amp that delivers at least 35+ watts. <<True> 35 watts. Not <hyped> watts.
Look for the 6550/KT88 tube as my prefered musical tube.
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Before you spend money, I encourage you to read Roger Sanders white paper on tubes vs. Solid state. Available on the Sanders sound systems website. Very helpful. |
Tube watts are greater than SS watts, and no it has nothing to do with distortion or any of the other excuses SS people in love with measurements like to make. Your problem is nothing to do with the type of amp. You simply have chosen absolutely the wrong speaker for your taste in music- loud. The absolute minimum you should consider is 90dB and if you really do like it loud then I would strongly recommend 95dB or higher. This alone will solve all your problems as going from 85dB to 95dB drops your power requirement by TEN TIMES! You can go from using all 300 watts and wishing you had more to being happy as a clam with a 30 watt tube amp.
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tube watts can sound louder than ss watts due to the overload distortion characteristics of tubes being more rounded and ear-friendly than transistors' hard clipping which sounds more ragged
either way you really don't want any amp, tube or ss, to regularly go into clipping if you want consistently good SQ |
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2301 doesn’t seem to double power into more demanding loads. For 85dB speakers, 300w would max out at 103dB. 600w would give you 106dB at around 10 feet from stereo pair. |
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What tube amps are rated at 300 watts? I've never seen one! |
