Tubes?

 I'm more of a mid range and low end guy myself

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I am about to make a  topic on just this subject, ss amps voicing the 3 main frequency ranges vs tubes performance in the 3 frequenct phases.
Should get alot of discussion going on.
I'm busy putting final touches on my upgrades in my entire system,, let me complete, and then I'll start a discussion.
Just saying mids are like 90% of the music we listen to.
I never make a  final judgement on  a  speaker/amp performance  by highs/lows, 
'Always mid frequencies is my concern. 

As was mentioned several times earlier get a tube preamp with octal tubes like the 6sn7, also a tube rectifier. I put a tube preamp in front of my krell amp and it sounds great, it sounded horrible with the solid state preamps
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
My guess is most high power ss fans , go with this ideal tube pre amp.
However a  great tube pre ain't cheap.  = has to be clean, no coloring,,I just sold off a  LS9 chinese Jadis clone 12AT7 3 stage,, clean, pure sonics, , no added color to circuit,,,, with Mundorf caps , $750. = steal, but its goneeee

its numbers then SS. If its music then tubes. It really is that simple.

^^^^^^^^^^^^
well Richard Gray just insalled my new Millennium tweets and new silver wires from navships,,
He suggests the Thrors at 87db are not ideal match for the Jadis Defy7,,
He highly recommends i either swap speakers ot swap amp to ss amplification.
Told him can'yt part with either..
I think what richard is getting at is, the Thros Excel drivers really prefer ss amplification to work their best...
So I may get more dynamics in  the upper midrange frenquencies , but lose some of the tubes musical magic,, always a trade off somewhere.
ss amplification will never ever work for me. 
btw Richard is refering to hi fi solid state,, HA,, ya gonna pay for that. 
Seas, Scan speak offers high sen speakers, but i am a  fan of the Excel line.

I am elated you have found a truely pistonic set of drivers from 20-33k. Another lap around the Mulberry....at least it is with somebody i deeply respect

perhaps it’s definitional, but i think of breakup as signal going one way, cone or parts of cone going the other way...$600 bucks and a run across the German laser scanner is a truth machine...

@tomic601

We’re on the same page with this... and I knew what you were saying when you asked ’at what cost’ but since the speaker I referred to does not seem to have a downside other than size, it actually came down to its actual cost, so my comment was a bit of a double-entendre :)

Ralph at what cost was a reference to trading one sonic virtue for another. I am elated you have found a truely pistonic set of drivers from 20-33k. Another lap around the Mulberry....at least it is with somebody i deeply respect

perhaps it’s definitional, but i think of breakup as signal going one way, cone or parts of cone going the other way...$600 bucks and a run across the German laser scanner is a truth machine...

best

Jim

@tomic601 

much wisdom in your posts about transformers and lost detail earlier in the chain

we shd all remember that when we obsess over gear

- sure you can get higher output but at what cost ?

$33,000? The first breakup in my system occurs at 35Khz. The speakers are 98dB and 16 ohms, go flat to 20Hz. Classic Audio Loudspeakers Project T-3.3

And it does crack me up when phase accuracy of the amplifier gets mentioned with speakers that start out the impulse test 180 out or with midrange wired out of phase...

it’s a system people :-) 

Having said that, I have heard low efficiency speakers driven by several of Ralph’s smaller amplifiers and they sound sublime :-) but certainly not at the SPL you seek.

I think Ralph and I have been round the mulberry bush on trading speaker efficiency for distortion - sure you can get higher output but at what cost ? Lightweight cones have breakup modes in the passband, horns ( I own them ) are mechanical multipliers, large baffles same... the astute audiophile just knows which distortion they savor

The sound of most but not all tube amps is dominated by the output transformer... yes tube rolling will matter but mostly it’s output which essentially same guys designed your 601 autoformers.... iF you really do like the speakers and the way the sound in your room, work the preamp hard. Definition lost there is gone forever.

@tobor007  Something you might want to keep in mind is that making an amplifier work hard for a living will result in harsher less involving sound. This is simply because the amp will make more distortion.

Tube amplifier power is expensive relative to solid state (which is why the industry went in that direction decades ago) but tubes still offer something that is almost impossible to do with transistors. Smoothness- greater detail and depth... but the problem you are up against is that in most rooms your speakers are near criminally inefficient. What I mean by that is you can count the number of amps that actually sound like music on one hand that also have the power you'll be needing to accurately portray musical peaks. Especially in the case of tube amplifiers, getting bandwidth at the same time as getting the power you need is almost impossible due to the constraints of the output transformer. The more power an output transformer can handle, the less bandwidth it has. Most tube amps of 200 watts struggle to do 20Hz to even 15KHz!


To avoid phase shift which affects the soundstage and tonality, you need that bandwidth (or else way more feedback than can be applied to a tube amplifier)! We make an output transformerless tube amp that makes over 500 watts, but its not practical for a speaker like this, I'm thinking mostly out of budget constraints as it costs about $147,000 for a set. But it makes the bandwidth no worries.


So if you are wanting the musical aspects that primarily are offered by tubes, you might want to think about getting a set of speakers that are easier to drive! There is absolutely no reason why a more efficient speaker would have any less resolution and you'll certainly experience greater dynamic punch as higher efficiency speakers have less thermal compression; I really can't think of a good reason to have a speaker with such low efficiency. So if you really want to get the most out of your amplifier dollar investment, you'll be doing yourself a huge favor to get something that's a bit easier to drive.

To illustrate how important this is, imagine instead of 85dB that the speaker is instead 95dB. The amplifier you would need to make the same undistorted sound pressure would be 1/10th the power! Instead of 500 watt you would only need 50, and there are many 50 watt tubes amps that would suit. The dollar investment goes down- you flush less dollars down the loo and get greater satisfaction out of the system.

My comments are not theory nor intended to be a blanket statement for all SS & tube amps. This is how things have played out for me over the past decade.

I had a Parasound HCA2200ii that is 250x2 or 750x1. I listened to one for several years and then picked up a 2nd to try them as monoblocks. While having both, I took a leap of faith and bought a pair of Audio Research Classic 120s. These are 110 watts each. I did A-B testing against a single Parasound and both. The ARC amps had more volume and an overall sweeter sound in both comparisons. I later bought the Parasound HCA 3500 as I always admired that beast and had the same result....those 110 tube watts still out performed the SS amps. My old preamp is B&K so I later picked up a B&K 200.2 s2 amp that is 250x2. This is my backup amp in case my tube amps have any trouble. I recently had some tubes fail that are way past their expected life. Long story, but I feared there was other issues and took the ARC amps out of the system to consider a trip to the shop. I hooked up my B&K and I just sighed with disappointment. The music simply doesn’t have the realism I get from the tubes. Now I did something weird but it was a cool experiment. The more I thought about the ARC amps, maybe it was simply a bad tube so I should have at least tried swapping tubes before lugging them to a shop. I replaced the bank of 4 where I had some red-plating. I hooked that amp back up for the R channel while the B&K was still running the L channel. I didn’t get the SPL meter out but the R speaker was significantly louder where the soundstage was shifted where the voices were almost centered on the R speaker. I would use the balance and go back and forth and it was remarkable even with just one speaker how much better the tubes sound. I realize I am not in the best class of SS amps here but Parasound and B&K are both well reviewed and respected amplifiers.

NOW....the cool factor here, my Platinum Audio Quattro floor standers have an efficiency rating of 86db!! This shouldn’t work, right?!?! What’s going on here. Don’t get obsessed with high wattage ratings. I haven’t heard one, but a friend of mine that has decades of tube amp experience recently got an ARC REF 75. These amps are said to be magical at only 75wpc. He was blown away at the dynamics he gets from his Wilson Audio Sophias. This would most likely be all the power any of us would ever need.

If you like your speakers, take the leap of faith and choose a tube amp. You may need to change speakers later, but once you sit back and spend an evening with the music they create, you will never go back! I tried to like SS better as there is no maintenance or worry of tube failure. There is no on-going expense of replacing tubes. All that doesn’t matter as the tubes are simply superior in the music they create....IN MY SYSTEM.

Good luck!

Conrad Johnson ART 300 mono's? 

drbarney
"But if you want more, a GM-100 triode run at 4000 to 5000 volts can give you more if you don't mind the finned anode cap offering instant death to anyone who touches it." 
I remember back in the day, people running big Krell's on power hungry speakers. Then modifying their AC to cool their music room down. Probably with the suits/litigation now, systems like these would require caution signs and a burn kit to stay legal. 
I do appreciate all of the input. I picked up a McIntosh c2700 yesterday. I'll see how it works out and report back. Dave

You will probably like tube amps; those with 6550C’s on the outputs are quite nice. Tube amps distort more softly if driven into clipping. Try amps with tubes first, the preamp having tubes is less of a concern as it will rarely be clipped. Certain of the Russian tubes were very good.

Big VTLs can do justice to your speakers.  I've heard them with Wilsons and some other speakers requiring mucho wattage and tough impedances.  Only Class A/B tube amps are possible.  Otherwise, I would stick with SS.  I wouldn't want a low impedance speaker with low efficiency.  Even my Acoustats and M.L.s ran great on medium power Class A/B amps without the big dynamics or low bass.  I would advise a more efficient speaker or easier to drive impedance.  Harbeth's are an example of a low efficiency, high impedance speaker almost anything can drive well.  Or, choose a speaker with a built-in amp or assist amp for the bass.  They usually can be driven by moderate powered tube amps.

If anybody has the balls to do it, an 833-A SET with its grid driven by a tube headphone amp with a transformer output about 600 Ohms and the 1000 Volt B+ to the 833A's through Hammond 1642SE transformer will give you more than enough power. It is not too difficult to build and I will email schematics of how I perfected this. The Hammond transformers are good for 300 ma before the cores saturate and the 833A run at zero grid bias draws about 115 ma. I use this and it is more than enough for my speakers rated at about 85 db.
But if you want more, a GM-100 triode run at 4000 to 5000 volts can give you more if you don't mind the finned anode cap offering instant death to anyone who touches it. It was designed in Bulgaria (the same country which sells glow-in-the-dark cloth from which you can sew together a suit to wear when walking from outside sunlight into a dark movie theater to watch a movie about radiation disasters) by some knuckleheads who wanted to call the 833A a wimpy choice of vacuum tube.

Dave, 

A simple try might be to relieve your McIntosh 601s from doing deep bass duty to the Revels, letting your new subs do the heavy lifting from say 80hZ down from your preamplifier.  I use a Focusrite Clarett 4Pre USB Audio Interface DAC to divide the signal at 80hZ, allowing my 35W per side Music Reference to easily drive my hungry pair of Salk monitors to stadium rock and full orchestral levels.  Pin

If what you want is a tube amp with some muscle, a solid low end, that are well within your price range, take a look at the Bob Latino M125 monoblock amps from VTA. Available in kit form at $2233/pair or fully assembled & tested at $2955/pair. Totally killer.

As was mentioned several times earlier get a tube preamp with octal tubes like the 6sn7, also a tube rectifier. I put a tube preamp in front of my krell amp and it sounds great, it sounded horrible with the solid state preamps I had. I know you can spend big money and get a really good sounding solid state preamp, but in my price range a tube preamp was better than the solid state preamps in the same price range.

tuberollin
"Yeah, beside tinnitus you are doing irreparable damage to your ears if you listen for very long at 90 dB."

I think I'm past that. It may have been the 2nd Black Sabbath concert or the Who, could it have been Pink Floyd? Not sure. But I bet the tweeters in my Salons sound really good. I'm more of a mid range and low end guy myself.

Hi Dave,

In recent years I've had the good fortune of sampling some great amps in large systems, smaller systems in homes plus brick and mortar.  Makes include three modern Nelson Pass amps (great,) 300B amps including a tricked out pair of Deja Vu monoblocks, amps designed by the late Roger Modjeski. (I own the RM-10 MKII) and just last week the terrific, obscure, Tom Evans amplifier.  Despite these wonderful experiences, my favorite amp remains the post anniversary McIntosh MC275.  The only reason I don't own it is because it is beyond my means.  To my ears it represents the best of the merging of great tube and solid state sound, as do some of the Pass amps.  Happy hunting!  More Peace, Pin

Thanks guys. So my JL subs came in yesterday. Tricky, (2) f112v2's in a room that is 17x19x9 high with the Salon 2's. I have the subs low pass set at about 50hz. Very square room, but the 2 subs are very hard to locate. This setup gives the Salons the extra low end dynamics (I want). The flexibility of being able to move the subs in this room to smooth out the bass is helpful. I am picking up a McIntosh c2700 tomorrow, replacing my c47. Please, not too much criticism about me going down this rabbit hole.I know I did. More efficient speakers, smaller power amps, perhaps no subs and less money. But the setup sounds good and I want responsible and not leave too much money for the kids. When I get the 2700 in I will give an update on the sound.

Yeah, beside tinnitus you are doing irreparable damage to your ears if you listen for very long at 90 dB. The "normal" listening level is 78 dB. I like it loud too, but I keep it below 85 dB. You may want to re-evaluate your listening and system requirements before you buy anything else

Rollin.

I would say: Jadis, Ear, Wavac, Metronome technologies,..tubes 35w-100w.(p.channel) . I don’tunderstand, why do you prefer over 120w. in tubes? You want to play in “Pure”class A?  A (good) tube-amp. gives a very good “low”. Do you have a big room, how is the accoustic in that room? A lot of questions you have to ask. It’s my opinion. Enjoy your music! And don’t let tinitis destroy your life.

Chuck Miller will tell you what to buy but he never gives a good or technical reason. He pushes his favorites without regard to anyone else’s budget, hearing, room layout or other technical factors. But he knows all about nothing.

I'm with Ozzy Carver Crimson 350s.  350/w/ch into 8ohms and 400w/ch into 4ohms
Mark

I used to think that SETs had a magical quality with the right speakers. 8 hour listening sessions over a few days comparing SETs (300B single and parallel single ended), KT88 push pull and OTLs was a real learning experience. Speakers used were the DeVore O/96s and all I will say is that the SETs, while having a great midrange, came in dead last. The push pull amps sounded a bit fuzzy but were more linear and powerful. The only amp that had no drawbacks and won in every category were the OTLs. Because I cant find a high efficiency speaker that I like, lower powered tube amps are not an option. I am also having trouble finding a high impedance speaker that I like so OTLs are not yet an option. 

here's a hybrid, MC901

mono: 300 wpc tubes for mids and highs, 300 wpc ss for woofers

https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/amplifiers/MC901

People is what they is for the most part, not likely to change.

"Never Wrestle with a Pig. You Both Get Dirty and the Pig Likes It"

oldhvymec

Appreciate the warning. I'm quite familiar with the narcissistic personality type.

A few thoughts.

1. +3 or +4 on a nice tube preamp with a quality high power SS amp. Those speakers are almost certainly designed to be driven by a SS amp. Arguing with a designer and using equipment out of its intended use case is a tough road... 

2. You don't state what is wrong with your current system. If you do feel like something is missing, a report of what that is *might* improve the quality of the comments.

3. If you do want to change amps, have you contacted the speaker manufacturer to give them your budget and ask for a recommendation? No one knows more about what will work well than them. Maybe once you get a few options from them you can bring those back and try to get some additional feedback from other users.

4. I also love SET amplification and high efficiency speaker designs, but was able to find happiness with a SS amp and 6sn7 based pre when I discovered that my current speakers were not as efficient as advertised (Coincident PREs). There are many paths to beautiful music reproduction.

@oldhyvmec

’life is short, make sure spend as much time as possible arguing with strangers on the internet’

just trying to reward good behavior here, discourage bad

but do i really care? no, not really - just would be nice to have folks be nice while helping other nice folks

with covid, fires, horrible state of the nation, we hang out here more than we should, so it’d be nice if we could have a nice place here

+1 MC, wrong loudspeakers. As I went up the efficiency ladder,  I went from clipping high powered SS amps on Mirage M1’s to barely cracking 5 watts on OB’s at 96 dB, 1watt, savoring the colors and hues over the wind blowing in my face. 

It all comes down to what sounds best to the listener (buyer). I had a Constellation amp/preamp and switched to tubes after hearing a setup at RMAF in 2016. I ended up buying the Voxativ 9.87 speakers and their integrated 211 tube amp, rated at 24 watts. The speaker drivers are very efficient, I believe 98db, and play at very loud levels. They also have 2 dedicated woofers that each have 250 watt A/B amplifiers. I get plenty of tight bass and the magic of a single driver with no crossovers. I know somebody said don’t trust anyone that mentions a specific brand but I have no affiliation. I just listened to everything I could find at RMAF for 3 days and nothing sounded better in my opinion. Point of my comment is to suggest a somewhat unique solution that has satisfied all my needs. I like listening to all types of music from Madeline Peyroux to Tool and find my setup very satisfying.

I'm in complete agreement with @charles1dad.  With the OP's speakers the tube pre and SS amp makes the most sense and is the path of least resistance to a nice sound.  

And all things equal I have no idea why folks who love tube amps wouldn't want to create a system based around SET tube amp of reasonable power (~22 watts and higher ) paired with easy to drive speakers.  I fear that all the fist pounding exerted by @millercarbon to bully people into buying some KT88 Raven amp are going to distract some from missing the magic of a large bottle SET circuit with carefully selected speakers.  The experience just can't be replicated from some push-pull design IMO and is worthy of experiencing.  

daj9 posts08-24-2020 9:18pm@jjss49 

The heavy handed advice does hit on the conflict in terms of the concern expressed in the post and the speaker OP owns, though it's easy to see how this might be overlooked due to the rather obnoxious style in which said advice is habitually delivered.


My oh my... aren't we in a bit of a tiff. You ain't seen nothin' yet.. Hang around.. If this is bothering you, you're not gonna make it. Mr. Obnoxious really hasn't visited this form yet.. HE's been on vacation, for a while.. 
Now you've stirred the pot and I bet he shows up. IT'S on you...

That's a freebie, the rest I'll let you learn on your own..
Wait to when the REAL pricks show up, and I'm being nice, and serious too. They pile on, all at once, like DOGS.. Give me and daj a break, OK.

It's being a little obnoxious callin' folks obnoxious, isn't it?

Sick um!!

Regards

Today, basically SAYING (or posting) that something is TRUE simply makes it true.  We don't need no SCIENCE or measurements or "experts" with 50 years' experience.  Popping off at the top of your lungs and continuing to scream whatever it is makes something "TRUE" today.

Conspiracy theories, politics, diseases, tubes vs SS, speaker materials, wires--it DOES NOT MATTER.

If someone THINKS something someone else has said is true, IT IS.  Back when I was coming up (there you go), people had a saying:  CONSIDER THE SOURCE.

That is, who benefits from believing whatever is being shouted?

So, go to your REPUTABLE dealer and take home and try as many items as you need to find the sound YOU are happy with. And, remember, and this IS true: Your room is the most important variable in any sound system. If you don’t believe that one, move your stuff to another room and see for yourself.

Cheers!

Exactly Dave. Keep the amps and get a tube preamp or phono stage.
Tube amps just do not have the same speaker control as a good SS amp.
They do not delineate kick drum or tympani as well. You can get the same warmth out of a tube preamp without sacrificing bass control. I do it with a tube phono stage.  

If you are going to try tube power, I would be looking for a VTL amp if you are trying to drive the Salons and get any SPL out of them.

VTL MB-450 monoblocks do 450 watts RMS per channel, or go for the VTL Siegfrieds if you want 650 RMS watts per channel. They will drive just about anything.

The 4th order xover on the salons, is in some ways like the cross over on the Snell A3s; they both suck up tons of power and need 300+ watts per channel to really come to life.

No way antigrunge.
SETs will be crippled trying to run these Revels.
I smell smoke.
Don't go there.

I recall Audio Research has built tube amps with 600w.  I see them used at £7,000-£8,000.  Lots of valves though.

Dull to see millercarbon still peddling the same old stuff.

Real tube magic happens in SETs, no comparison. Have a look at the Wavac 833

@jjss49
That’s a pretty good synopsis of the advice received. Can’t help noticing the heavy emphasis the OP places on high SPL with no mention of SQ though. Why consider tubes in the first place? Presumably which watts are louder and hitting high SPLs is not the only concern, so info on what is desired is incomplete.

The heavy handed advice does hit on the conflict in terms of the concern expressed in the post and the speaker OP owns, though it's easy to see how this might be overlooked due to the rather obnoxious style in which said advice is habitually delivered.

@ tobor007, Keep the revel's, buy the mc-2301 amps.  You will love the sound..

hopefully the op can sort through another typical a-gon thread, lots of pretty good advice, some heavy handedness in how it is delivered, some getting caught up with semantics and missing the point

i suggest op take away the following:

1 - you have definitely chosen pretty inefficient, relatively hard to drive speakers - if you like them and will run with them, you will need to match your amplifier carefully, most likely a beefy solid state unit to deliver alot of power/current to do the job well esp. if you like to play pretty loud

2 - most tube amps will struggle with driving your speakers, in absolute volume and in bass control -- tube amps just can’t match ss equivalents in bass control and slam, you need to go to megabuck tube amps to get very good bass with your speakers

3 - tube pre feeding ss power amp likely the best solution if you want some tube dimensionality and sweetness to the sound, that is IF you value that

4 - tube watts vs ss watts and the semantics associated with that line of discussion is pretty much irrelevant

I don’t know how ridiculous or stupid it is. But a WATT is WATT.
I guess the topic would be are all WATTs created equal?

I don’t know, are they? I (ME) think they are...

A Watt is a Watt! I Recon...

Crap, I confused myself, It's not fair. I'm still under the mind control of my buddy Sam.
That dog gone embedded message he keep sending, keeps me coming back for more
crazy talk. Maybe outer space WATTS are different... Just sayin'  :-)

Regards

Glass watts versus sand watts?
About as different in weight as a ton of feathers and a ton of iron.