Good points JAFOx. I do also favor reviews where the number of variables are minimized. Yet, a comparison of the MBL with the ARC Ref 610 may have been a more valid one than the current with the Ref 210. They both represent a statement of the current maximum capabilities and technical prowers of these two companies. I am not terribly concerned about the almost 2X price difference. The assigned list price of the MBL gear is at least partially indicative of Euro vs US greenback exchange realities and may be highly influenced by deliberate marketing decisions to facilitating certain product perceptions, rather than purely being driven by the reality of R&D and production costs. |
I applaud Jonathan Valin for taking a systems approach to listening and comparing with other "systems" but the end result is just that: one system vs. the other. Unfortunately, this makes it tough if not impossible to quantify how one line stage sounds vs. the other (and the same for the amps) as each model of the respective line may "compliment" its sibbling .... or are they each "neutral". Of course mixing and matching could result in the worst of both worlds. But a lot of people like the tube preamp and ss amp and it would have been nice to read about this pairing.
For someone who already has a great match of their amplifier to their speakers, and is seeking information as to the specifics of line stages for auditioning, this review brings on little value. Hopefully Mr. Valin, one of my favorite audio reviewers by the way, will further analyze and report on these products in a standalone manner as well.
As for the issue of comparing apples and oranges, even if the ARC 610 amps were used in comparison, the price difference would still be huge. And with the design and implementations so massively different here, it still comes down to the strengths of ss (ultimate resolution/detail and frequency extreme coverage) and tubes (spatial/ambience) which are very clear from Mr. Valin's conclusions. In the big picture, no surprises here about which product line excells in each of the key sonic attributes. So this too comes down to apples/oranges.
John |
The Feb 2006 issue of TAS features a review of the ARC Ref 3 linestage and ARC Ref 210 mono blocks. The devices are compared to the much more expensive $19,000 MBL 6010 D pre- amp and $73,500 9011 monoblock amps. According to the reviewer, the MBL gear excels in detail, decay on 'sostenuto' and ultimate transient response. while the ARC products excell in size/solidity of stage, ambient realism and decay, tonal color and accuracy, tonal balance, neutral background. Remarkably good (massive authority) in bass control and transient response for tube gear.
"The MBL gear reproduces the transient slap of the duo's voices as it bounces back toward the listener off the rear wall more distinctly than the ARC does—more distinctly than anything else I've tried. But the ARC combo reproduces the way their voices trail away toward the rear wall with the same magical continuousness that it shows when reproducing the decays of notes. Both presentations are kind of amazing. And which products you will prefer will depend, to some extent, on whether you value astonishing clarity and transients or astonishing durations and tone colors.
effect is awe-inspiring. . ."
I have not heard the MBL gear so I can't comment directly on it, but I concur with Jonathan Valin assessment on the Arc Ref 3 behavior in tonal color, stage, imaging and decay. As for bass authority and transient speed, for my particular taste, the Ref 3 is just correct, and any more of these would be excessive and unwelcome.
Finally, Jonathan Valin is somewhat guilty of comparing apples and oranges: he should have used the ARC Ref 610 current flagships to compare against his MBL benchmark, not the 210. |
No problem---but with all due respects I will hang on to my Valhalla |
Sounds good OneObgin. Please let us all know if you get an opportunity to listen to the new Helix series. Likewise I will post any further findings on Valhalla. |
It was the original Anacondas. |
Oneobgin, system synergy and personal preferences always play a major role. I am wandering if perhaps you have auditioned the original Anacondas, rather than the new Helix Anacondas. The new ones sound significantly different than the old one, and I very much prefer them. Unless you have tested the Helixes in the last 45 or 60 days, I suspect you likely heard the old series. Mind you, you may still like your Valhallas better, yet Helix are worth a careful examination.
My personal findings are in the URL listed in my previous post. |
No need as I owned them before my Valhalla PC's
Bear in mind that a "system" is a synergy of all of its parts and in my system and for my ears Valhalla PC's were enchanting |
Thank you Oneobgin. . . On Ref 3 I did not need much convincing. . . I simply let my ears do the walking. I have in fact auditioned the Valhalla PC on X-01 and on the VAC Ren II. I found it to be wonderfully extended at both ends, without displeasing bloom nor undue harshness. Unfortunately, with the equipmented Babybear and I tested it, it also sounded slightly attenuated in the midrange, or in other words excessively 'slender.' Yet, as it also does display some of the 'sonic polarization' that I enjoy on the Helix family, it may be worth another listen on the ARC Ref 3, if I so have the opportunity. On the other hand, if I may be so bold to turn your suggestion around, why don't you give the Shunyata Anaconda Alpha and VX a try? I'd be interested in your own comparative findings against the mighty Valhallas. |
well Guido
Thankfully I have convinced you about the ARC Ref 3.
Now let's get on and do some other schooling on power cords. I would like you to audition the Nordost Valhalla against your Shunyata PC's and then come on back for further discussion. I have used all of the one's you have described and would not have thought there could be anything better until I tried Valhalla. The rest is history. |
Fplanner, unfortunately listening to the mighty Phi 2.0 was not in the cards this time around. Yet, several years down the road -- if I upgrade linestage once again -- I will give VAC's production once more a fair chance.
In the meantime, have you already read my Helix vs Electraglide findings? I have several posts on Shunyata Helix starting at:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1126432063&openfrom&31&4#31
This far my favorite PC for the X-01 is the Helix Anaconda Alpha. Yet Babybear has reason to believe that its VX sibling may still outperform it for this particular application. I will post my findings as soon as I have an opportunity of comparing the two versions on either his or my own X-01.
Are you considering an X-01? Make sure it is WELL broken in before you pass final verdict on it. The 80 hrs of breakin suggested by Teac America are 'for the birds'. 800 hours are more like it for RedBook alone. Mine still seems to be subtly opening up well after that mark. |
well I am with Guido on this one and, although the other preamps mentioned are truly exceptional I will bet $$$ that Guido finds audio nirvana here |
Guido: You must have different ears than me - to me the ARC3 sounds quite sterile and uninvolving, totally opposite of my VAC Phi 2.0. Too bad you never got to hear it before making your purchase... Oh well, maybe you can upgrade to it in a few years????
Take care and enjoy your new toy.
I'm also a little curious about your Helix Shunyata experience with the Esoteric. I currently have an Epiphany going to my 3910 and may go to an X. Please e-mail me when you get the chance.
Thanks |
>>please b4 ref 4, you need to have the ref 3 series 1, 2 & 3 plusa some in between updates for the work ARC should have done in the first place.
be done with it buy a cj ACT2 and enjoy music not upgrades<<
I'm not quite clear on this. You mean that before the CJ ACT2 there was never a:
PV1 and all the ones in between until the PV12
PR1 and all the ones in between until the PR17
and the ACT1?
or, are you saying these were all ACT2's and CJ really never made any changes except the name?
or, are you saying that CJ has made a decision that no matter what they will never attempt to improve on the ACT2 and that is their final product? |
Thank you Downunder. The Act 2 does not meet my requirement for a fully balanced design. |
please b4 ref 4, you need to have the ref 3 series 1, 2 & 3 plusa some in between updates for the work ARC should have done in the first place.
be done with it buy a cj ACT2 and enjoy music not upgrades. |
Hey guys, don't bet on a Ref4 due to the marketing to cater to the superstitions of the number 4 overseas. It will probably get bumped to a 5. After all, have you ever seen an LS4, PH4 or DAC4? |
>>I think that you answered your own question. There will be upgrades to a point and then the Ref4<<
As it should be. Odd, that some people think that a company shouldn't continue to put out a better product, including switching to a whole new technology it that's what it takes.
Maybe we only needed a Gramaphone, a Ford Model A, a IVAC computer, etc. and should never have improved on any technology once the first model came out. |
"Oneobgyn - What makes you so sure there "will always be upgrades to the REF 3"? Indeed, there will be upgrades to a point. The REF 4 will come out, then perhaps the 3 will be dead-ended like the 2 was. We shall see.
I think that you answered your own question. There will be upgrades to a point and then the Ref4 |
Oneobgyn - What makes you so sure there "will always be upgrades to the REF 3"? Indeed, there will be upgrades to a point. The REF 4 will come out, then perhaps the 3 will be dead-ended like the 2 was. We shall see.
Good luck and Merry Christmas. |
And a very Merry Christmas to you too WC65Mustang! I am still enjoying my rig but . . . it is now almost as if I were trying to virtualize the new sound in my mind, through the performance limitations of my current setup. . . very bizarre indeed! Perhaps I truly have DAC (Digital Audiophilic Chorea). My friend PSCIALLI thinks it may be caused by mutated Prion particles, somehow inhaled whilst listening to the rig of already infected audiophiles. . . what a sobering thought! |
Guido,
Happy holiday to you. The owner's name, BTW, is Mick not Mitch. Enjoy your rig and music as well. Take care. You to oneobgyn. The ARC is a fine product. I was just having fun with you guys. |
Sure Mustang. . . . . and so will most other active brands eventually improve. . . . but that is neither here nor there. Enjoy your rig! |
WC65Mustang, I am sure Mitch makes fabulous devices. I will consider listening to one when the brand meets my requirements. |
>>You can be sure that there will always be upgrades to the REF3<<
Absolutely; ARC will continue its' pursuit of Supratek's SOTA performance. |
You can be sure that there will always be upgrades to the REF3 |
>>Clearly the best preamp you will ever own<<
Until you move up to a Supratek. |
JAFOX, I did perform a little due diligence before passing my order. It is being aledged that ARC is NOT in the process of announcing a new version of the Ref 3 at CES. Yet an Mk. 2 or whatever is eventually inevitable, and I am looking forward to my new baby being bested. |
My good friend Guidocorona, it is great to hear that you finally did this. Right on - what a great holiday gift to yourself. It seems like you have been chasing the holy grail of line stages for months and months. Let's hope that ARC does not soon release a major revamped Mk II or worse ..... gulp, send it to the ARC mausoleum with the intro of the next Ref model. Hopefully you can tune that out and enjoy your new purchase for many years to come. Happy Holidays to you.
John |
ObGin and Jafox, not wanting to mortgage the future, it is safe to say that the ARC Ref 3 will be the very best linestage I Have ever ownED! |
|
Clearly the best preamp you will ever own |
OK my merry gang of doubters out there, it is truly happening. . . I have finally broken down for Christmas. . . and while ranting and foaming at the mouth under the spell and spasms of a full blown ceasure of Audiophilia Newrvosa, hands like claws reaching uncontrollably for the credit card, I have ordered my very own Arc Ref 3 in stunningly elegant black livery! I expect delivery of this hefty valvular marvel sometimes during the first half of January '06. |
Fplanner, I have indeed heard an X-01 with Shunyata Anaconda VX and another with Epiphany and several other much less successful chords. . . quite amazing! My original post on X-01 describes my experience with this player and the Anaconda VX. See:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1090867688&openfrom&3&4#3
I am also interested in hearing the new Anaconda helix VX. Elrod and a few others will also be on my eventual test list. Furthermore, X-01 works best in fully balanced mode and I am still using a venrable AudioQuest Quartz RCA. But all of these fancier tests will commence only after the creature is fully broken in, or I won't be able to tell who is doing what to whom. . . and why. . . and how well.
Yes, I do follow the APL forum regularly. Alex Peychev's original plan was to modify an Esoteric UX-1, universal brother of X-01, but with half the complement of Burr Brown 1704 DACs. I am not sure about the status of this particular project. |
Guido-
You might be amazed trying a really good powercord, especially on the Esoteric. I've had great luck with Electraglide Epiphany and Elrod Signature and Statement cords. My suggestion would be to call John at The Cable Company and see if they have 1 of these to "rent" - will only cost you $30-40 or so and it could totally end up rocking your world. Seriously. I mean it.
Also, Alex Peychev's (APLhifi.com) next project I believe is a mod on the X-01. My Denon was totally gutted except for the box, transport and multi-channel bits, with all new APL goodies shoehorned in, including a Class A tube output stage. You might check out the website and the forums attached. |
I used to be able to edit my post. . . but the capability has disappeared from this thread. . . oh well!
Just wanted to add that I have been always using the LS2B with its stock captive power chord, and currently the X-01 is still powered by its own stock chord. My EAD T-1000 DSP-7000 digital combo have always been powered only by the stock PCs which were originally delivered with my JRDG 7M monoblocks. . . very non denominational PCs. |
Thank you guys for the kind words, what I was hearing last night from the X-01 into the LS2B after 35 hrs of break-in was already rather incredible.
Sounds like I have already changed also the linestage: much larger soundstage, low level info, compatibility with congested passages, emotion in the performance is finally reaching my ears, bass line in 'continuo' melody can be heard instead of only guessed at. . . . and it's starting to sound even lush. . . or was I the one getting 'lush' after half a glass of Merlot?
note that not only my old and trusted LS2B is still in the system, but it is still connected to the X-01 through an almost 20 year old AudioQuest Quartz RCA IC. Just can't wait to listen to the system again tonight approx at the 55 hrs break-in mark.
JAFOX, one of the probs with LS2B is that it takes the creature 4 full days to warm up each time it is turned on and the tube enabled. Mine has now been humming for several weeks. While I do not pretend it to rival better/newer gear, it is never the less sounding quite enjoyable.
Fplanner, I have not heard the APL 3910 so I cannot comment on it. I only had the opportunity to listen to the APL 1000 and found it to be graceful and quite charming, with an intimate presentation which reminded me of some of the best features of my EAD combo.
Yet, I may be comparing apples and oranges. . . It would be quite interesting if someone could post a detail A/B first hand analysis of X-01 vs APL 3910.
Oneobgin, I can't wait to order the Ref 3 and insert it in the system. . . just need to postpone the process a few more weeks for WAF consideration. In the meantime I will break in X-01 thoroughly and make my system ready for the Ref 3's arrival/insertion. |
Guido
Trust me when I tell you that you made the correct decision. You will love this preamp |
Congratulations on making this key decision. Wow, what a huge improvement over the LS2. You should be a happy camper for quite a long time now. |
Congrats on FINALLY making a decision. Did you get to hear the Phi? I really like my Phi in combination with my modded APL 3910 which compares favorably to the X-01, or so I've been told. Then again, I don't listen to classical chamber music, so I guess to each their own. Once again, good luck with the new gear. |
One more update on my continuing saga. Linestage decision time has come. After months of pondering I have selected the ARC Ref 3 over VAC Ren II or Phi. Given my listening preference for classical chamber music, I have reasons to believe that the Ref 3's just slightly lush sound may be slightly more of my liking than the VAC family's admittedly greater nimbleness, and broader treble extension.
For WAF considerations that may become apparent -- at least to some married audiophiles -- in the next sentence, I have postponed order of the Ref 3 by a few weeks.
I have finally replaced my venerable EAD T-1000 and DSP-7000 Mk. 3 digital combo with the long coveted Teac Esoteric X-01. I received the unit only two days ago and am currently breaking it in. Even the unbroken X-01 already appears to justify fully my falling for it last year in NYC. I expect the unadorned elegant beuty of its sound to complement nicely the relative richness of the Ref 3. |
Ethann
That is why I feel the ARC Ref 3 pairs well with the Meitner gear. |
Hi Oneobgyn, I dont know what the problem was but I was never able to resolve it. Perhaps it didn't have enough gain for my system. I didn't notice a hissing issue with your system but I think your dac has more gain than my phono/cartridge combo. |
Hi Ethann
You heard my Ref 3 and it is dead quiet. I am not sure what the issue is with respect to the Ref3 which you auditioned.
I had no hiss even before I had the 4 bypass caps added |
Interesting, I'll have to troubleshoot what is causing this. |
The problem with a hiss on early Ref 3 linestages has been noted by some others. No hiss was detectable on the unit I auditioned. I suggest you get in touch with Leonard at ARC. It is quite possible that the new bypass caps may get rid of the hiss. |
"Does anyone notice a hiss in their system with the Ref 3? I noticed this with some of their earlier preamps. In my system, I can hear over the surface noise of LPs."
Absolutly not! Dead quiet. |
Does anyone notice a hiss in their system with the Ref 3? I noticed this with some of their earlier preamps. In my system, I can hear over the surface noise of LPs. Do other tube preamps have this issue? |
Got my Phi back from Kevin and have greater low level volume control than before. I really like this preamp, and even though currently working through a few system difficulties apparently created by the Equalizer for my Whisper speakers, it still sounds great. Imaging, extension, detail, layering and musicality - its all there in spades. The sound is ever-so-slightly warmed by the 8 tubes, but in a really nice, very real sort of way. Close your eyes and you would swear the musicians and/or singers are in the room with you, and you can point them out with ease.
The music just naturally flows. I haven't heard the Ref3, so can't comment on it. Guido - send me an e-mail if you have specific questions. |
Just a small update on my auditioning plans. I am currently waiting with bated breath for the Austin weather to become more reasonable so that I will be able to keep the system turned on without the danger of poaching. Probably another three weeks or so. Then, in early October I hope to borrow a Ref 3 for several days, compare it directly with a VAC Ren II as an example of current VAC house sound, draw conclusions and finally reach closure. I may not be able to audition Phi directly, so I may need to make some guesstimates about Phi based on Ren II vs Ref 3. |
