Vandersteen 2CE Signature II: Is it worth the price of $2700? Why are so many for sale?
I have seen several ads on both AG and Ebay for a "variety" of Vandersteen 2CE's
Question: Is:the "latest version:"of the model worth its $2700 price tag considering the evolution of this design over the last 10 to 12 years
Vandersteen's website shares a few paragraphs about the upgrades made; but, has their really been notable or marked improvements in sound quality and overall performance?.
The amount of 2CE's for sale regardless of what version seems unusual,and even cautionary for buyers looking at a used pair ( taking into consideration age and condition)
Lastly, does this model compete with the performance of other speakers in its price range??
Actually you can’t. I asked Richard about my 2Cis and his response was they don’t keep a record of the serial numbers and dates. He did however give me a rough approximate timeframe for mine. Maybe he does now for the newer models.
Regarding serial numbers: Vandersteen doesn't keep records of serial numbers, and Mr. V. will most likely not be able to give specifics. The 'Ask Richard' page isn't well organized and you can spend a day reading through the posts. If you want a rough idea, google the model's release date and try to interpolate. You could also try to call John Rutan and get his idea of how old something is. If you are on the East Coast, he may well have sold them originally.
My take, buy the most current model you can(-so 2 ce sig2's). Get the serial number and call Johnny to see what the current serials are running. I bought a pair of Treo's that Johnny sold to another Agon member who upgraded to Quatro CT's. Though mine are not CT, they are still fairly recent and they sound wonderful. So, even if you don't get something cutting edge, they should sound very good- just not what is currently offered, but then, you would be paying twice as much for that performance... B
The woofer is an 8" Vifa molded cone with a 2" dustcap and a
double-wound voice-coil. Its free-air resonant
frequency is
28Hz, and while the sealed woofer
enclosure
can be expected to raise that number
some-
what, the effect is tempered by the
presence of
an additional bass driver in the
same enclosure:
an actively driven, rear-firing
10" cone whose
effect on the speaker’s bass system
is similar to
that of a passive radiator.
It's similar to a
passive radiator. It may not be a actual
passive radiator but it is similar to one. That is why I called it a PR. This 10" er has also been called an
active
acoustic coupler & a fiber-cone “supplemental” woofer, but has never been called a real woofer like the real 8" woofer that is above it and around the front. I used to owned these speakers and never liked them as I thought the bass was to slow and a little sluggish, I also did not care for the over all sound of the whole speaker.
You have to understand, this is just my opinion and all I'm doing is saying I don't like them,don't I have a right to state my view? I just don't care for Vandersteen speakers. If it was my money at $2700.00 I would buy the Eminent Technology LFT-8b speakers for $2500.00 that is what the owners of VPI turntables use at their factory.
I’m on my second set of Vandersteen - a pair of Treos from Johnny Ruttan at audioconnection. They replaced a beloved pair of 2 CE Sigs. The Treos are outstanding IMO and have a very detailed, up front presentation, even at very low listening levels. In some ways, though, the 2’s more than hold their own. There is a holographic sense of instruments hanging in space that the 2’s do better than the other Vandersteens. It’s a more laid back sound, but so musical and non-fatiguing. At some point if I have a second system, I’d probably buy another pair of them. I remember the first time I heard the 2’s. Johnny played me some music and IMO thinking, “Well this is great and all but I’m not buying a set of $10,000 speakers.” When I found out that they were $1650 ( at the time) I was floored. On a budget, they are a no brainer.
Exron Fyi its all good Vifa drivers were well over 20 years ago not one part is the same with latest 2 speakers now w 5 as woven cone mid drivers and tweeter I get they didn't work for you in your crib but in most rooms they sing . The concept of time correct and stealth enclosure still works. Try a give a listen to latest efforts with AQ wired system and not too many pads on the wall that kill needed overtones then pop back here. best JohnnyR
It’s a more laid back sound, but so musical and non-fatiguing.
Very interesting. I only heard a demo of the Treo's (non CT) once. Driven by SimAudio integrated. They sounded very forward to me. Not forward in the sense of bright, but forward inasmuch as the soundstage started on a plane well in front of the plane of the speakers, and only extended back a little ways behind the plane of the speakers. Whereas the others (Dynaudio) I heard, same room, same setup, started around the plane of the speakers and extended well behind. Not saying the Dynaudio's had a deeper soundstage in absolute terms, just that the soundstage that there was, was positioned differently w.r.t. the plane of the speakers. Was this experience an anomaly??
are we helping at all ? God i hope so, this is after all supposed to be fun
re Emminent, not my first comment to this effect, magic in right room with 5’ ish behind the....heard a pair at appointment only place in Chicago.....
aint it great to have choices...
as for an imaging anomoly with Vandersteens....yes that sounds odd...they are known for a deep deep soundstage - why great pains are taken to preserve time, phase and a unified wave launch....
@twoleftears Very unusual description of Vandy soundstaging. Not doubting you, but something may have been less than optimal there regarding set-up or system synergy.
The 2C/Es are one of the best, if not The Best selling, high end speaker of all time. Thats why so many used units are for sale.
In fact, we should thank Vandersteen for this design recipe. Think how many audio listeners got into high end b/c they could afford a very competent speaker like the Vs. I mean, V hit the nail on the head 40 years ago with their design. God bless em.
I know that when I've head the Simaudio gear in a few dealers show rooms as well as at a buddy's house, they were forward. I've heard the whole Vandy line and forward isn't a description I would use as I've never heard them not have a fairly large soundstage with good imaging. My Treo's and Quatro CT's throw a realistic stage if it's fed that. I've had a lot of gear in teh house and I've heard the soundstage change with each different piece. That's just me.
As for the ET's, I"ve been hearing them since the 90's and have always heard them set up properly. As has been stated, you just need the right room. If you have that and you have very good amps with a lot of power, you will get very good sound. The only problem I've had with them is a bit of coherency issues integrating the bass with the panels. It can be done, but it can cost a bit. I like Vandy's as you can easily run them on good NAD, Rotel or Belles or many of the other nice sounding amps from 500 to whatever and keep getting better and better sound.
the quote you used from my post was about the 2CE Sigs, not the Treos. The Treo (non-CT) do indeed have a much more forward sound stage than the 2CE Sigs that I had. It may be heightened more by the SimAudio gear. I had a SimAudio integrated with my 2CE Sigs before moving to Rogue Audio tubes. The soundstage was further recessed with the Rogue tube gear.
I promise you that the Sim gear will move any stage forward. That's part of what they do and why some who love the front row seats, like the Sim gear. It's a different taste deal.
That said, I've heard Sim separates on the Treo's that I used to own and the stage still started a bit behind them. I also felt that it extended very deep, but I was using a Basis TT with a Rhea phono stage. I didn't like the Sim with anything digital in my system and I was using an Ayre QX5 that I'm now selling. It's a great DAC and matched well with the Sim.
As for the Treo vs the 2's, I haven't heard both in the same system in the same room to be able to really say.
@cbucki , If it were me, I would get a 2wq sub or two and keep the 1ci's. You'll get performance almost as good as a 3a sig. Vandy is coming out with a new sub soon, so prices for 2w's should come down even more. Once again, look for as current a serial number as possible- B
If you're ever in the Louisville, KY area I have a pair for sale locally, cheap. I loved them in the store, however, I didn't do proper research and realized when I got them home that my room was not conducive to proper placement, and, was never able to get them to perform anywhere near as close as in the store.
Kharp Call me at Audio Connection in NJ and I will help you sort it out Mentored here with RVs simple magic moves for many years made them work successfully even in a 9 x 12 room ......... Cheers, JohnnyR
Agreed, but tell that to Audio Doctor in NJ, lol...sorry, couldn’t resist. I agree though. Dealers need to disclose and also not sell. Nice of Rutan to offer to help even though he isn’t selling the guy anything.
Kharp, call Johnny and get those things set up correctly before letting them go. You will lose money if you have to resell and if you liked them in teh store, they should actually sound as good or better in your home. Did you use your own electronics in the store or something else?
@ctsooner , good one indeed. Agreed, Senor Rutan has a passion for this hobby that transcends his bottom line sales even. Very rare in this day and age. I don’t mind if other dealers contribute as long as it’s clear they’re dealers and not just popping in to sell something....like Sunny. He’s about as much of a Vandersteen dealer as I am.
How have you been? PM me when you can. Someone we know is too shy to contact you. Take care, David
@carmenc , Don't beat up Johnny. He is willing to offer free advice. I say this as someone who has benefited from his advice, yet never bought anything from him. He won't try to sell me anything I don't want nor pressure me to buy something I do. I only wish I had the funds to buy new. He would be my first choice. B
@gdnrbob, totally agree. I’ve also benefited from his advice...when I listened that is. Bought a few things from him as well. Will again. He’s one of the good guys for sure.
Enjoying your Bifrost MB you sold me. Take care, David
@cbucki , That is the beauty of the Vandersteen subs. You use the M5-HP crossover or get the fixed value crossovers. These are connected to the speaker outputs of your amp and allow the subs to work seamlessly with your speakers and relieve the amp from having to reproduce the low frequencies which are the most demanding. When in doubt, call or message audioconnection, Johnny Rutan. He can give you the best advice on everything Vandersteen. B
Oh, guys, I just realized that the OP is @sunnyjim was a Vandy dealer and lost the line. He has an AX to GRIND, so I guess he goes on sites like this and bashes them. What a tool!
Yeah that seems likely since he has not chimed in. What a shame that people will do that. Vandersteen has, what seems, a very good reputation. The only thing I had heard negative was from my local dealer in Cleveland who felt slighted in a big way, because Richard decided to sell his lower line speakers on Music Direct (online) thus really showing some disrespect to the dealer experience and customer service he had provided for many years. BTW I bought my 2ce Sig II speakers from him and he really helped me find the right speaker. I know I would not have gotten any auditioning time or great help if not for him if I bought online.
i have had a conversation w RV about Music Direct..here is my recollection....
i believe they only offer up to 3a-signature, so setup IF follow the hyper detailed manual is not difficult...and may not require deler physical visit help to get the most out of the speaker....yes this is a trade off maybe....
( although i would add hard won dealer knowlege is hard to beat )
Music Direct is a large operation that can reach many many markets totally unserved by a brick and morter dealer with financial muscle to have a return policy ( on $4.5 K pair speakers ) and stocking a wide variety of colors, finish, etc....
i think it was a prudent, well thought out deliberation on his part, by no means perfect but probably necessary in the evolutionary market for hi-fi.....
I totally agree with Tomic. There just aren't a ton of audio stores around anymore. They only sell the less expensive models. I would still drive 3 hours to a dealer if there was one around (I have one about 2hours away). I doubt that they have taken much away from a dealer to be honest.
Not knocking RV for his choice to sell on Music Direct. It seems it might be a pain for a dealer to show a pair of 3a Sigs and later have the customer buy online because he can get it a slightly lower price??!! I would add I might never listened to a tube amp if not for the dealer. My Line Magnetic amp and 2CE Sig II are a match for beautiful music and he is the one that mated them for a long listening session. I almost never buy products online, last one was a gamble that did work out. I am a fan of good honest dealers. I also would not have heard equipment from the likes of Audio Note, Devore, Leben, ARC, Well Tempered, Line Magnetic, Shindo and many other brands.
As far as I know, Music Direct sells at retail unless it’s an open box or demo. There are a couple of more dealers like MD out there. Just can’t recall their names at this moment. No offense at all to your experience in Cleveland, I’m sure it went well for you and that’s all that matters! However, based on my brief experience with the dealer, it doesn’t take much for him to feel “slighted”.
I totally agree with ctsooner. Besides, this affords a great opportunity for potential customers to get introduced to Vandersteen’s models from 3A down.
If you can find a retailer selling both Vandersteen and Eminent Technology, compare the 2C's with the ET LFT-8b ($2499/pr retail), as I did. A pair of Watt/Puppies were also included in the comparison. If you have room for a "small" planar (5' tall, 13" wide), the ET is an outrageous bargain. VPI's Harry Weisfeld recently proclaimed it to have the best midrange he has ever heard out of any loudspeaker, regardless of price. I wouldn't go that far (the original Quad is still unmatched!), but it's damn good. Unlike the Quads, the LFT-8b plays pretty loud, and likes tube amps (an 8 ohm load, the magnetic-planar panel itself 11 ohms). Ralph Karsten says he has some Atma-Sphere customers very happy pairing his M-60 amps with the ET's. One of the best kept secrets in Hi-Fi.
I've had the older ET's in the house for long periods of time and loved them. I heard them vs the original Vandersteen Quatro adn felt it wasn't even close. For the price back then, it shouldn't have been close, but the ET is a very good value. It's just a hard sell for dealers for many reasons.
Vande are a great way to go. Just don't overpay. Also, stay away, far away from the 2ci's not in the same league sound dead just muffled highs so warm they are hot! Bought a pair mint w factory stands locally for $400 unloaded them to a h/t guy who had 1c's after one month. Early 2ce's are fine.
Where do you find such a good deal on 2CEs? What would be a reasonable price for a used pair of the latest iteration?
@gdnrbob What information do you have on the new Vandy sub? My next piece of audio gear will likely be a 2wq, so if they have something better on the way I may hold up. Thanks!
@bstatmeister, I believe it has a built in equalizer so it will be much like the 5's and 7's. John Rutan would have the specifics. I also suspect it will have a higher price tag. I would wait, when it comes out, I'll bet prices come down on the 2wq. B
Vandersteen Powered Bass with Room EQ Just Got Affordable! The SUB THREE approaches ... the 2Wq is now Discontinued The venerable 2Wq, in continuous production since the 1980s and arguably the most popular high-end subwoofer of all time, is finally giving way. The 2Wq is now officially discontinued, and it's time to get ready to meet its amazing new replacement, the SUB THREE. The SUB THREE will be available to customers in June of 2018 and is available for dealer order NOW. SRP is $2,490 each. There are a LOT of 2W and 2wq owners who are going to want to hear all about this tremendous new upgrade opportunity!The SUB THREE employs Vandersteen's signature powered-bass technique, which places a passive high-pass filter at the input of the main amplifier. This method makes the SUB THREE a great addition to speaker systems of any brand, compact or floor standing, and is crucial to achieving the "unbeatable powered bass" performance fans and reviewers alike have lauded in Vandersteen's powered-bass systems for decades. "High-passing" the main amplifier is the only way to get flat frequency response at the crossover point between the main speakers and the powered subwoofer, and also improves midrange and treble performance dramatically. When the main amplifier is relieved of deep bass duty, intermodulation distortion is reduced and the midrange and treble take flight and float freely in the room. This is the most musically righteous way of integrating a subwoofer into a speaker system, period.The SUB THREE also incorporates one of Vandersteen's most innovative and enduring technologies- 11-band room EQ for perfect bass in virtually any room. This technology originated with Vandersteen's Model 5, and today is employed in the flagship Model Seven Mk II ($62k/pr.) and reference SUB NINE powered subwoofers ($18,900/pr.). Over time this crucial technology has been employed in Vandersteen's Model 5A and Model 5A Carbon ($31,300/pr.), but prior to the SUB THREE the least expensive path to Vandersteen room EQ was the Quatro Wood CT at $14,600/pr. Vandersteen's legendary powered-bass with room EQ is now more accessible than ever!
SUB THREE Specs 325-watt Bridged Power Amp with Regulated Switching Power Supply11-Band Room EQ for Perfect Bass in Virtually Any Room 3 x 8” Cast-Aluminum Basket Cellulose-Fiber Woofer Cones with Ultra Long-Throw Motor AssemblyPrice: $2490 ea.About Vandersteen AudioVandersteen Audio designs and manufactures time- and phase-correct loudspeakers and superb electronics. Every Vandersteen loudspeaker is designed to be as true and accurate to the signal received from the amplifier as possible, but with unsurpassed natural musicality and “Dimensional Purity.” All Vandersteen products are proudly designed and manufactured in the USA, in Hanford, CA. Contact:Audio Connection 615 Bloomfield AveVerona NJ 07044 973239 1799www.audioconnect.com JohnnyR
@audioconnection Thanks for the update on the new sub! Just so we are clear, the same basic drivers and design are the same as before, but the real difference is with the adjustable EQ, correct?
You mention that the 2wq is now discontinued, does that mean there will be discount on the remaining stock? or is remaining stock going to be converted to sub 3s? Just trying to gauge on how hard it will be to get a new 2wq sometime over the next 4-5 months.
@bstat, As Johnny pointed out, owners of the 2WQ are probably going to upgrade when the Sub 3 comes out, so, as I said, there will probably be a few 2wq's for sale in the near future. I would not expect Vandersteen to discount existing stock. And, if I were him, I would just sell existing stock before offering the Sub 3. @mvlopez, Good question. Though I am thinking there should not be a change. The EQ is more of a 'fine tuning' of the signal. And, the 5 and 7 speakers use the same crossover, I believe. B
((((Just so we are clear, the same basic drivers and design are the same as before, but the real difference is with the adjustable EQ, correct?)))
NO 325-watt Bridged Power Amp with Regulated Switching Power Supply Its a big difference over 2WQ
11-Band Room EQ for Perfect Bass in Virtually Any Room
3 x 8” Cast-Aluminum Basket Much improved quality and stiffer composition /rigidity then 2Wqs,
Cellulose-Fiber Woofer Cones with Ultra Long-Throw Motor Assembly (((does that mean there will be a discount on the remaining stock?))) No The 2Wq is now Discontinued as in RIP The Sub 3 SUB THREE the least expensive path to Vandersteen room EQ was the Quatro Wood CT at $14,600/pr. Vandersteen's legendary powered-bass with room EQ is now more accessible than ever! Best, JohnnyR AudioConnection
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