Try a used pair of 5's or 5a....Randy normally has a pair or two of those...mine came out of his house.
Seriously give Richard a call.he takes phone calls....spoke w him yesterday.. |
There you have it. If you high pass the Treos, they will not be running full range. Which is what I said in the first place. This can be done with any speaker.
Which is exactly my point. This isn't a discussion of the Treos specifically, but this could apply to any full range speaker that you choose to NOT run full range.
Shakey |
Shaky, you are out of your league on this one. Either way, why would it matter to you? IF OP loved the Treo sound and wanted the subs to get all of what he is looking for, shouldn't you be supportive? Nearly everyone who is active in this hobby will tweek their systems to achieve greater response. Some tweeks cost much more than a sub or two. Do you know what the high pass filter does or how it works in the Vandy's? As Johnny was kind enough to explain to you, it doesn't work the same as your sub. Your dislike for anything Vandersteen (just look at your post history) is obvious to most of us who post. I've had more than a couple of folks email or PM me asking if I know who you are and why you jump into any Vandy discussion and dismiss them. Many times it's the same things that you bring up and they've already been explained to you, but you are a persistant poster, I'll give you credit there.
So I guess the only question for OP is the budget. Does he want Treo's with subs and get all that he's wanting or does he continue his quest. I just thank OP for letting us follow his journey. Sounds like his bike rides to listen to audio are also a fun part of his journey. W, please keep us informed as you have. You've taught me a lot about answering audio questions and how NOT to start answers and I thank you for that. You earn stars as a poster in my book. Thanks |
Ct. Do I get any stars for switching to Vandersteen and living in Wisconsin? lol |
A two hour motorcycle ride can unbalance your hearing. I wouldn't do any serious listening after a ride. |
I am out of my league? I have probably owned more high end speakers in one year than you have in your life...... different story, different day.
The OP describes the bass as "thud, thud". He DOES mention quality, not only quantity.
I don't have a sub. Don't really need one.
I am not bashing the Treos, nor any other Vandersteen speaker. My commment could be applied to ANY high end speaker.
If anyone on this site is "wondering" about me, they shouldn't waste their time contacting you about it. I am available for such questions.
Wluke, I hope you find a speaker you like. If you have a better audition of the Treos and they are the one, I am happy. If that happens to be another model, still happy.
Good luck.
Shakey |
"07-19-15: Onhwy61
A two hour motorcycle ride can unbalance your hearing. I wouldn't do any serious listening after a ride."
Shouldn't be a problem if he has an audiophile helmet. |
Mr, M. wife is from Wisc...Have we talked about that yet? Maybe, Too funny. thanks for the laugh
Shakey, I'll just go by your posts IRT your feelings on Vandy speakers. Just at I love them as do so many others (there's a reason they are so popular and have been for soooooo long).
Shakey, it's not always about how MANY you own, it's about picking the right ones from the get go. I am able to listen and go through the process and chose the ones I love and stay with them happily. Been doing that since the 60's (ouch, did I just say that? wow). I've never had a problem selling my older gear either, so I assume that my ear isn't that much different than most folks.
Shakey, the bass questions have been answered by both me, other posters as well as the most respected Vandy dealer. Richard himself could answer and you'd find a reason to question him based on your history of posts IRT Vandy speakers, lol....That's fine though as that's the reason we have the boards. Your comments are IRT VAndy's and not other high end speakers. Are 'other high end speakers' identical to the Treo's?? The Treo's are the only speakers we are discussing and the Vandy sub's are the only subs we are speaking of. They are totally different that most other speaker sub set ups and if the subs play99% of the music and the TReo's play 1%, but the systems sounds like a 50k set of speakers and gives a listener all they want, does it matter HOW it's done?
The fact remains that the OP (and most of us) do have a budget and that's why we all go through what we do as we can't afford to purchase a speaker that BETTER do everything. The bottom line is that if he wants all the great stuff the Treo does AND he is willing to pick up the subs for that integrate with them, then he'll most probably be blown away by the sound and be happy.
More importantly, Z needs to share the site for those audiophile helmets. Do they use various mikes to eliminate the rubble? |
The fact remains that if the bass quality of any speaker is in question, you will not change that characteristic by adding a subwoofer unless you filter out the frequencies that are the problem from the main speakers. Just because the connectivity of the 2Wq is different than other subs, does not negate that fact.
That is all I am saying. I am not being negative about the Treos. I just maintain that if you correct the issue the OP describes, you will NOT be running the Treo full range.
That said, if you are completely happy with the bass your main speakers have and just want to add more extension, that's easier. This is NOT the case presented by Wlutke. So high passing the Treo is necessary.
Again, for the last time, I am not disparaging the Treo or it's performance. I am just pointing out that the sub won't make the bass performance of the Treo better, it will just replace it's bass with that of the sub, eliminating the need for the Treo to produce low bass. This may sound great, and I am not saying it won't. But you haven't suddenly made the bass QUALITY of the Treo any better.
Shakey |
Yeah when the 5a comes down in price used I will part with my Sig 3a / Velodyne combo. The 5a is an amazing speaker,I mean it's the same analogy when I was shopping for a tonearm. People I talked to said the Phantom 2 is amazing they told me,found a used Phantom 2 Supreme used and bought it.I love the sound of Vandersteen speakers and they were right about the tonearm |
As far as rumbling motorcycles go, and audiophile helmets, for that matter, here is my set up. I have a Honda 1.3 liter, liquid cooled V-4 sport touring bike with stock Honda pipes. You can't hear the exhaust until you hit 80 mph. I sit behind an electrically adjustable barn door of a windshield and wear 32 dB expand-to-fit foam earplugs. My Arai Signet-Q helmet has blue tooth speakers. My Zumo GPS has mp3 and blue tooth, giving me turn by turn voice priority over the music. I do crank up the volume to get past the earplugs. I did not use the mp3 for the trip though. The speakers also connect my wife and I via blue tooth intercom. The foam covered boom mikes are vox with a threshold high enough to overcome any wind noise - which isn't an issue even in use. Think conversation in a Honda Accord with a back window cracked. Maybe not audiophile but hi-tech fun! |
That's freaking awesome Wlutke. Too funny as I'm not a biker (son wants to be though) and that's a fun read! |
I'm a biker too. Lots of fun, but as an audiophile you have to use some common sense for protection of your hearing. The expandable 32 db. foam earplugs he talks about are about 95% of his hearing protection. I wear these things for almost eight hours a day at my job. Without them, I wouldn't be a audiophile! |
I used to ride an HD Streetglide. I had a custom stereo in the batwing fairing.
Alpine CDP with USB input
JL Audio Coaxial speakers
JL Audio 5 channel amp and subwoofer in the right saddlebag
Sounded damn good sitting still. Very good at slow speeds, and loud enough to discern @ 80 mph.
Shakey |
My point about riding motorcycles and critical listening relates to the fact that at highway speeds the rider can experience SPLs in the 100-105dB level. I don't think it would be wise to do a component evaluation after two hours at that very loud level. |
Onhwy61
Agreed. People with super loud bikes, half helmets, no earplugs and no wind screen should not take extended rides on the freeway to do critical listening. |
Agree also. Your hearing takes a toll when riding without ear protection. No way around it.
Shakey |
C'mon guys, this thread is way to much fun to let die. Somebody, any body have something good to say? |
You could start by pissing off Shakey. His posts are really fun to read when he's mad. |
Yeah. But he seems like a pretty good guy. Just likes to voice his opinion a little more than others. |
Shakey doesn't get mad zd, he just tells it like it is, at least the way I see it as it is, which is, it IS what it is, right Shakey? If you have to define what is is, you'll likely never get it. |
He's a good guy I'm sure. Honestly, the OP is a great poster and I loved the way he dealt with things. Taught me a lesson or two. I personally hope he gets to hear the Treo's with the subs that are set up properly. That's basically like 98% of the Quatro's. He obviously gets the sound from 100 hz and up. For the money it's really hard to beat the Treo's and when you augment the bass correctly, it's devastating. Spoke with a guy the other day who runs his with two Vandy subs and he loves it. He moved the TReo's out 3' from the wall and they disappeared.
How's that for keeping to the OP's post? |
I admit I can be very "passionate" sometimes. But let's not forget that we all share a common interest after all is said and done.
Shakey |
Other observations:
The Treo central image (vocal) was very natural, a bit laid back behind the speakers, smaller than life size. The perspective was as if from a box seat above the stage, maybe five feet above the vocalist. Even though the actual image appeared only a couple of feet behind the speakers, the smaller size gave an impression of a greater distance and larger soundstage - Fleetwood Mac Rumours, "Oh, Daddy" track. I liked it. Diana Krall at the piano had a similar presentation. The 3A Sigs are more life size on the Fleetwood Mac. Laid back, smaller stage but more "face to face". |
OK will play FMac O Daddy on the 5 a and see what they do with it... |
Thx for blast from past....one of my fondest memories are of Mac 240 tubes glowing blue w plasma playing Roumers thru dads big Bozaks....OMG we cranked that up.
Image wide out beyond Speakers w shaker, guitars acoustic and harmonics. Apparent depth of background vocals is way far back, reverb and Echo on Nicks voice has her a bit varied in height but you are right not a tall image. Classic multi track made up thing..the snare in particular is in front of much of the image. Looking at RTA not all that much going on for a subwoofer to work with...might want to use bass line in Chain at about 3:30 in to judge definition and tone...just my thoughts.... |
I like the perspective in my room, however I do want the Quatro's. I think they are the sweet spot in Richard's line. That's why the Treo's with two of his subs would get that larger size you eluded to. That's the speaker I'm saving up for and will buy as soon as I get a fair offer on my new Treo's, lol. |
" I'm saving up for and will buy as soon as I get a fair offer on my new Treo's,"
Don't you have to actually list them for sale before you can get an offer?
Shakey |
After reading your comments on the type of sound you're getting, I can't help but think that you may like the 3's better with a 2nd V-5, instead of a speaker upgrade. |
Shakey, stay on topic dude. I already have a few who are interested. I'm not in a hurry though ;)....anything else that I may answer for you about my life? Maybe we should all stay on topic, lol. Feel free to PM me with your questions though. |
Little touchy are we?
You make a statement in the thread and I ask a question. Don't be so regimented, after all, this is just an audio forum. It's not life or death.
Shakey |
Shakey, I promise you that you can't make me touchy. May come off that way, but I was laughing when I hit send ;). I really messed up my post as it was supposed to be taken in the totally opposite vein. Sorry bout that. |
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Wlutke
Sorry to reply so late on this been trying to read thru it all but been rather busy.
There was a gentleman on AudioCircle that actually had a pair of the Treo's 2Wq's combo. He posted his impressions for awhile then wound up selling the Treo's and went back to his original pair of 2Ce Signatures. I will look for the post and post his impressions here, might be the weekend before I can get to it though.
His thoughts made me start thinking I would need to listen to Vandersteen's newer offerings before letting my 3A Sig go.
Anyway just thought I add to the confusion (lol). |
I'm currently in Japan for a few weeks but I saw this thread still going so I thought I'd share.
Vandersteen will tell you that set up correctly the Treos with the pair subs will get you very very close to the Quatros and allow you to put the Treos in the proper place,met for your room. Very flexible system. That's from the company. Your dealer can help you set it up and dial it in correctly. It's pretty easy
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Here we go found it this morning while reading.
"The Treo works fine with a pair of Vandersteen subs. I used them that way for almost a year until I sold the Treos the first of the month. With all five of the amps I tried it with it needed to be run with one value lower than the input impedance of the amp.
To GreenGrass if you really like the sound profile of the older Vandersteens you really need to listen to the Treo before just plunking down now almost $7000 for them. They to me are much different than the "classic" Vandersteen sound of the 1,2, and 3's. I kept my 2CE Sigs boxed up the whole time I had the Treo and in the end prefered them. I have owned three different Vandersteens over the course of the last 15 years. If you like the "classic" Vandersteen sound you might want to look at the Odyssey Lorelei or the Nola Contender and pocket the significant difference. Or buy a used pair of 2CE or 3A Sigs. There are always ones on either A'gon or USaudiomart. Just my opinion and others may differ."
I thought I post the whole reply.
I guess this just goes to show speakers are like coffee, do you prefer dark or light roast, single origin or blend, store bought or home roasted so many chooses and we haven't even gotten to the point of whether you take something in your coffee.
Speaking of which I need to go get me a cup, it should be done brewing by now. |
Interesting thread.I have a 12 year old pair of 3A Sigs. I have done a lot to squeeze out the best possible performance out of them over the years within my means. Recently I thought about selling them and getting the new Maggie 1.7i. I love Maggies and have a pair of 1.6's in another system. I consider that my reference system in many ways. Lately I've been re-thinking my thoughts on selling the Vandy's though. They seem to surprise me every time I change something in just the slightest way, like toe in, repositioning them, tilt back, cable changes, adding a line conditioner, changing seat height, other tweaks for ground control, lowering the noise floor, etc.Today before I stumbled upon this thread I was comparing the two systems with the same tracks, in different rooms of course and they both had a lot to offer. The Maggie's with a Vandy sub just don't have the same kind of bass fullness of the 3A Sigs.However it's all there and articulate! The Vandy's bass is pretty spectacular and also very accurate and detailed when fed the right upstream components and the synergy is there. The Maggies are a special breed and are breathtaking in what they have to offer as well. Two different flavors and both delicious. Barolo and Rioja: take your pick. It felt great to hear them both deliver the goods in all areas. The Maggies just move air in a different manner and when I listen to them I do not "pine" for the bass of the Vandy's. It's there but rolls out in a different way. The Vandy's are remarkable in the way they do bass and detail together. It's all there really with both speakers. Just different delivery.
As far as the 3's vs The Treo's I think they are quite different in the same way and each have their strong suits. I've heard the Treo's many times at John Rutan's Audio Connection and they are SOTA speakers for sure. I would say they are more "fleet" in their delivery, but the newest versions of the 3A Sigs are incredible in their own way to my ears. I have an older version and like I said, they surprise me every time I think I may want to change them. Vandersteen has a wonderful line of loudspeakers to fit all budgets. They can really deliver the goods especially when there is synergy with your components and you set them up properly. I've heard the entire line many times and they are a terrific value. Same can be said about the Magnepans IMHO of course. If you can hear the 3A Sigs and Treos side by side with the same components, that would really be the determining factor as to what you prefer. |
I was doing a search on Treo's as I have finally put them up for sale (now will have the money to get Quatro's). I reread the whole thread and it is very interesting.
The OP wanted to know what the Treo's sound like. I've now lived with them for well over a year and I LOVE them. If they don't sell, I'll be ok with that. I often have to listen at low levels on Sat and Sun mornings. I am in shock at how great they sound at any level. Even at the low levels they are dynamic as heck. They are like listening to a point source driver only at mostly full range. There was concern over the QUALITY of the bass. Folks, if you want quality, it's there in spades. The quantity isn't what the Quatro is, but again, augmenting with the high pass filter and Vandy Q subs you do get that quantity and the quality will tighten up a spec too. I wouldn't ever use anyone else's sub with it though. That won't work. I listen to a ton of vinyl still as well as high rez, well recorded digital on a very high end DAC. No it's not cheap, but this is about how good the Treo's can sound. The sound was described as a bit behind the speakers. Yes, if you want something in your face go listen to some others. The new B&W's are speakers that are in your lap. Not my cup of tea, but many love that. These speakers must be set up really well (thanks Johnny) because they open up even and give me a very large and realistic soundstage. The stage goes well past the edge of the speakers too. My room is decent. It needs a bit of help on first reflection, but I have MS and am unable to put the quilts I purchased up on the wall where they need to be.
These are chameleon's in that they rock, play large scale orchestral, give me the guitar plucks from Joe Bonamassa's fingers and the emotion of his blues, allow me to love Bill Evan's piano on Kind of Blue and even on Cowboy Junkies, the female vocal can be hauntingly good.
They are just clean. No distortion at all on mine. That allows them to be 'ruthlessly revealing without fatigue' as I posted earlier in this thread. Not only do I stand by that, they have gotten better. I don't think I even had them fully broken in when I originally posted. I also have upgrade a few parts of the system. Not sure if I had the Ayre AX-5 Twenty upgrade at the time. I assume I was using the Empirical Audio OSDE/SE (with every upgrade Steve offers for it).
I thought it was cool that the CT version made the front over of The Absolute Sound last month I think it was. It's a GREAT review and a fun read if you Google it.
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I liked the 3A/Sig much better than the Treo or Quattro.
The caveat is with the 3a it is much easier to set up than the others.
Pretty much plug-and-play. |
To my ears the Treos are a step forward in the mids and a step backward in the bass (from the 3A sig). I really wanted to like the Treos but the bass is unacceptable. Since the cure is sub woofers (or Quatros at twice the price) I’ll keep my 3A Sigs. I suspect much of the improvement in the Treo mids is due to the ease of driving the small Treo woofer, unloading the amplifier, or in the case of the Quatro, no woofer to drive at all (self powered). That would explain why Vandersteen has not married the bass drivers and cabinet of the 3A Sig to the tweeter and mid cabinet of the Treo - potentially a real winner without the $7k increase - giving the people what they want instead of a magic show - look at this hand (mids) and ignore what the other hand is doing (bass). |
What you are hearing is more bass with lesser quality through the 3's. Those are a great choice in the lower price range however the Treo,s do everything else much better. Just ask Richard and he'll tell you the same thing. The Treo's sound great on material that has true low information. I heard great low information yesterday playing some orchestral tracks in 192. The quality was outstanding. Do I want more? Yes and that's why I want the Quatro. Bass is the most expensive part of audio. At these price ranges there have to be compromises. I do disagree about set up. The Treo's were really easy to set up. We just put them 8' apart and put them about 4' into the room. Roughly what every speaker in this room has been. Then we uses string and placed it to my ear and made sure my ears were equi distant from each tweeter. Then we put on the spikes and used a lazier pen to align each tweeter on the back wall. After that we took about 15 minutes to set the tilt. That part was easy. Afterwards we rechecked the tweeters on the back wall to makes sure they were properly aligned after tilt. It took two of us about 30 minutes. Maybe I could dial them in better but they wound as good as I've ever heard them in various places. The CT version is better by a fair amount but at a premium. Personally I take quality bass over quantity. These still go down into the low 30's and with the quality They give you most are highly satisfied. That takes nothing away from the 3's which are also an amazing value. We are talking about two great values. If we were talking about the Quatro vs the 5 we'd have a similar conversation but all have to agree that we love our Vandersteens and feel we have a great speaker value. |
What I am hearing is better quality bass in the 3A Sig for rock music. What I hear from the Treo is better mids but a small ported driver that fails miserably on rock music. Not because it lacks low end. It doesn't. It thuds quite loudly. Believe me, if the Treos had better quality bass than the Sig *on rock* I would own them. They just don't keep the rock beat rollin'. If the Treo lights your fire on orchestral, by all means enjoy.
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Thanks! for sharing- wlutke.
I feel that I was the only person here whom does discount the Treo and Quattro. Keep in mind the difference(s) in sound and presentation goes into that 1st order crossover. |
Interesting. I honestly don't do much orchestral, but it does have very low bass. I listen to much more rock and heavy metal and have found the bass to be satisfying overall, but i do want the Quatro to get better and more bass. I heard the Quatro and 7 mk2's yesterday at Audio Connection as Richard was there visiting. The 3's do go lower, but the Treo has better quality according the to designer of the speakers. If you feel you are getting better quality and more bass in your 3A's, then you are as it's your ears. jafant, that's fair that you discount both speakers, but there are so many folks who love them as I heard folks talking about switching to them yesterday. That's why other's can sell their wares also.
The one thing I will say is that Vandersteen is about to come to market with a new sub that will only be sold in pairs and will ROCK. As long as you have a speaker that goes down to the high 30's you can use it without losing coherency as the bass needs to overlap a full octave to achieve that. That's why it's so difficult for anyone to properly mate a sub with a non full range type of speaker. it is pretty interesting stuff how he mates the sub's amp with whatever amp you are using to keep the same sound signature. Just thought I'd share and this thread is a good one to throw it out in. |
I just came upon this excellent thread today. Love the passion for the hobby that I've been reading here. I am 10 days into owning my new Treo CTs. I have played music and the Purist Audio Design System Enhancer disc to break in the drivers and crossover components continuously. Out of the box revealed the promise of fine sound...they just needed time to get there. Well, they are pretty much there. I am using mine with a pair of 2wq subwoofers. The Treo CTs mate beautifully with the subs.(expected) I have had to turn down the gain on the subs. from where they were set for use with my 3A Sigs. Look... set up and system being equal, the Treo CTs are much more detailed but at the same time smoother....more refined than the 3s that I owned for 22 years!! I would never go back, but I also have countless fond memories of enjoyable 3A Sig. listening sessions. Richard knows who he is what his design concept is about and he has simply?? refined that concept over time applying ever more sophisticated driver and crossover components into his designs. The laudable comments about Johnny R at Audio Connection are spot on. Just met him 10 days ago and enjoyed the couple hours we spent in his shop. He knows electronics and speaker design concepts and "gets" Vandersteens.
One thing we all need to remember, Vandys will never be for everyone with passion for this hobby. If they were, there wouldn't be gazillions of speaker designers out in stereo land! I understand Richard's design goals and the meticulous nature in which he has met success throughout his career as a premier designer. Appreciating the amazing attention to driver, cabinet and crossover details, the Treo CTs are to me yet another amazing offering of extreme value from Vandersteen Audio. |
So glad you were able to pull that trigger. I know some keep thinking the 3's are better than the Treo's, but I just don't get that at all. I like the 3's and for the cost, they are like the others...a great value, but the Treo is not the same speaker. It takes everything to a new level and that includes the bass. Deep isn't the most important thing in this price range, it's about the quality and the Treo goes darn deep with plenty of punch in most rooms IF it's on the recording.
Yes, I send everyone to Johnny only because I totally trust him. For those who aren't into Vandy's, he realizes that right away and will show them Proac's or something they will love. He's about system building and that's a lost art, although it's refreshing to see some of the dealer posters on here who do get it. |
I hadn't realized this thread had popped up again. Love reading everyone's post, hifiman5 glad to hear those Treo's are working out for you. I'm not saying there better or worse, I just need to find time to get a good listening session with them. The CT version would be the ones I'm interested in, either the Quatro or Treo, like the idea of the adjustable bass.
Anyway what struck me as funny is this thread reminds me of the old commercials from the 80's to 90's. Which way do you prefer your caramel colored sweetened soda water? Coke or Pepsi?
I'll have RC Cola and a Moon Pie........made with real sugar please.
Ah the good old days, not everything gets better in time.
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@ig316b I just looked up your system. Very nice gear. I see we share an appreciation for upgraded McCormack components! I truly hope you get the chance to hear Treo CTs. I have had Vandersteen 2C, then Model 3 upgraded to 3A, upgraded to Signature status. After reading about the Treo CT and talking with John Rutan at Audio Connection in Verona, NJ, I ordered a pair of Treo CT unseen and unheard. I know what Richard Vandersteen is after having owned his speakers for over 30 years. I have had the Treo CT for about 7 weeks now. They are everything you would expect of Vandersteens at their price point, incorporating Richard's latest thinking in speaker design. Again, the 3A Sigs. are fine speakers and unbeatable at their price point. If you can pull together the cash, the Treo CT or Quatro CT would be a significant upgrade in your listening experience. Having two 2wq subs. I chose the Treos and couldn't be happier.
Hey, if moving up is not in the offing, you can continue to enjoy music through the excellent 3A Signatures. All the best! |
Well put Hifiman. @ig316b, where do you live again? The thing about the Treo's is that they are SOOOO good as the price. Bass is the most expensive thing to do correctly. that's where most of the manufacturer's seem to make the most compromises as so many folks aren't used to hearing top quality bass in a room. This is why the mini monitor is so popular I think. I like that the Treo goes very low and is very tuneful. I've had some top components in my system and the Treo just keeps up with them. They don't have the slam factor that I like on some songs, but honestly, when I hit the volume a bit, the bass in my room is just outstanding.
That said, I do want the Quatro's if and when I move the Treo's. I do like the adjustable bass and for me it's worth it. I feel strongly that the Quatro is the sweet spot in the line. If you can't get the Quatro's, the Treo or the CT version will make you happy and you can then get subs later on if you feel you really need them as Hifiman said.
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I listened to the Quatros and the Treo's with just ONE Vandy sub with the premium filters. Was really surprised at how the Treo/Sub combo sounded better than the Quatro. To my ears anyway. |
