You can get a far better speaker than the WP 7 for the same money.
I have posted here before this same information, but it bears repeating, there are many smaller audio companies which are producing world class products that can outperform many of the brand name products for less.
I am an Usher dealer and they make a $16,400.00 speaker which is a direct competitor to Kharma, Avalon, Wilson etc.
A Be 20 is a true reference grade speaker and it is affordable this is especially true, when you consider that the speaker uses a pure Beryillium tweeter and midrange, as well as two 11 inch Eton woofers. Combine that in a cabinet which is 300lbs of solid birch,mdf, and damping materials you have a speaker which can compete with any $30,000.00 plus monster! I have heard them, I have installed them and yes they are that good!
Before you venture into a used WP consider the Usher's you might be very, very surprised!
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The WP7 is an exceptional speaker. Don't be fooled by Audiooracle with his self serving posts. |
Like everything else, speaker choices are subjective. I've heard both of these speakers at Hi-End shows. Can't say much about the WP7 as Wilson never allowed show attendees to play their personal CDs.
I have been impressed by USHER speakers. And as I am currently shopping for my next pair of speakers, the USHERs BE10, BE20 are on my short list next to Verity Parsifal and Hyperion 968. Of all the manufcturers at T.H.E. 2006 in L.A. last summer, these stood out the most in my budget range. (For those manufacturers that were MIA, you snooze, you loose)
As for the combo of WP7 and X250.5. I think the combination would be a good match. Many have described the Wilson speakers as somewhat lean, analytical, and cold sounding. I think the Pass will give it some warmth while not sacrificing the details, extension, and bass slam.
I currently uses the X350.5 to drive a pair of Thiel 3.6
FrankC |
Thanks for the input guys. Since my topic was about WP 7's and Pass amplification, I shall refrain from saying anything other than I have the opportunity to get a pair of beautiful WP 7's with low hours on it for $4k less than other speakers mentioned above. I've never heard the Watt Puppy's before, but I'm guessing they will be a good bit more detailed than the Jr's. I like the warmth of the Jr's. I'm hoping that the 7's will be more dynamic with my 250.5 |
I have had Sophias and WP7's, and IMO they both work better with big solid-state amps, although tube amps have their charms in the soundstaging and warmth departments. I have some big Essence amps driving my WP7's and the bass and dynamics are terrific. And yes, Audiooracle, we are getting tired of your hijacking posts to tout your crap Chinese speakers. Funny how these telemarketer types always claim their cheesy speakers beat Wilsons. What a joke. |
Hey Rlawry,
Did you find your 7's to be too analytical or lean sounding? I want to hear body in my music, not a flat neutral response. I've never heard Watt Puppy's before but I get the sense that a lot of people think they're not musical. I thought the 7's fixed that problem. I'll be using a tube CD player as well as vinyl in my system. My room is relatively small though at 15 x 12. My Pass amp works in class A for the first 35 watts, so I'm thinking that might help matters a bit. Anyone else have any opinions? Feel free to chime in. |
i use WP6s in a room 15*11 and find them very musical.
w/ wilsons, its all in the setup, which is challenging i must admit.
(hint: put them on the long wall, treat the room, and avoid silver-sounding cables and you're on your way) |
Wake up and smell the coffe, spencerco I do not sell out of my territory and I don't even know where you live, and I am assuming you are not in my area!
The reason for mentioning this speaker is call your attention to a superior product and maybe save you some money, it is doubtful I would profit from your sale because again, I don't sell out of my territory.
I have sold WP for many years and they are indeed an excellent product, with that being said, there are waves of people who are making buying decisions with fresh eyes, these are people who value content.
Usher by the way is a larger company than Wilson and their speakers are hand made just like Wilsons.
Usher makes their own beryillium tweeters and midrange.
Usher uses the same woofers as Avalon, and Kharma.
Usher uses Jospeh D'appolito to design their crossovers.
Usher is famous for remarkable construction quality and is hardly considered Chinese crap, they are from Tiawan.
We delivered a pair of these speakers to a physician and his friend had a pair of $32,000.00 Avalon Eidilon Diamonds guess which one was the winner!
Close minded people will never discover anything new, and will fall into a trap which has blinded many people in this industry: they buy by name rather than content and in doing so miss out on really fantastic new products.
Yes support a company that changes a tweeter in a model and jacks up the price by 30%, as Dave Wilson drives his Ferrari to the bank, or support an import, yes true, but one whose company believes in making dreams affordable. It is your choice choose wisely. |
Watt Puppies are NOT lean if they are setup right. Do you have enough space for them, and have good room acoustics? If so - You will love them - and they will be SO much better than your VR4JR - DEF. a step up in Bass |
Oracle,
Wake up, smell the coffee, and think Dale Carnegie.
Thank you. |
Spenceroo, I don't think my WP7's are too lean with Essence amps and CAT Ultimate preamp, although I don't think they will ever be confused with a rich, warm sound. I was surprised at how transparent and big-sounding they are. If you want more warmth I would go with tubes, although you will give up some of the cavernous bass they are famous for. I haven't heard Pass electronics but one of my Essence amps is biased heavily into Class A and they do produce a warmer, fuller, more 3-dimensional sound than my other Essence amp that runs more in Class AB. If you are looking for a huge soundstage, the WP7's have the best I have heard. Audiooracle, notwithstanding how your Taiwanese (Taiwan is off the coast of China, no?) speakers sound, what irritates me most is your rudely forcing yourself into threads and trying to make a buck. The original poster was asking how WP7's would sound with Pass amps. I don't think he nor anyone else was asking for a put-down of Wilson speakers, who are an easy target because of their prime market position, something Usher never will have. Obviously this is too high a concept for you to understand. BTW, ever notice how many speakers have copied the WP design? You are trying to horn in on a market advanced by Wilson and other top high-end companies whose innovations built the business. |
Don't you just hate pissin' matches like these! Nobody wins. All I will say on the issue is, Audioracle, the opening line of your first post was simply not needed and will almost always open up issues such as we here, no matter what the product.
Anyway, to the original poster, I don't know how much value my comments will be, as I don't own a Pass amp, but rather Mac. I own the 7's and I certainly do not find them lean nor unmusical, quite the contrary. For me, the 7's are a speaker I feel I could change my electronics to many different brands and continue to enjoy the speakers. (I'd love to hear them with a X250.5 or X350.5, amongst many other amps I'd love to try.) I was using B&W 802D's prior to the 7's and find the 7's light years better with my system. |
Brianmgrarcom,
You need to read the offendor's prior posts and you'll understand that any product not sold by him is unworthy of consideration. The history is there for all to see.
It's that simple and very bad selling.
Thank you. |
I actually have to agree with Audiooracle. I think you can do quite a bit better and save some cash looking elsewhere. I have a ton of experience with the Watt Puppy 7, and with the right setup, they sound great. But for the money.... ugh. |
I was a dealer for many years and am not at this time. I would have to agree with the statement that there are other speakers that will do everything the Watts will and be easier to work with as well. The Ushers audiooracle was taking about are actually on a par with Wilson Audio Grand Slamms that cost three or four times as much as the WP7's, they were designed by Paul DiAppolito who works for Usher. It is an amazing speaker for the money and could be compared component and build to the Von Schweikert speakers that cost $150k.
There is nothing more appropriate that catching someone who is stating that they are looking at buying something specific and offering an alternative that can give better performance at a lower price. That should be the kind of advice given by any who have the actual experience with the products. I invested in taking trade-ins like WP7's, B&W 801 signatures, Pass Labs, Levinson, Jeff Roland, etc. so that I had the benchmarks on hand to give direct demontrations of better speakers, and to be able to show how to make them sound good.
The dealer who recommends a product probably isn't as self serving as it might seem because he will probably not be the dealer who would be used for checking out the product he recommends. Any business picked up from a chat forum will undoubtedly be discounted heavily as well so the advice is well served by the person looking for information on specific products.
The best purchases I've ever made are when I thought I had made up my mind on something only to have someone tell me about a better product, at that point it warrants checking it out and making up your own mind.
Ushers do warrant a listen, and it's not the AC-20 that goes head to head with WP7's, it's one of the smaller ones yet. They had best sound of show several years running as well as many best rooms. |
Aintitgr8, if we take your response for what it is, I cannot disagree more with your statement that Audiooracle is acting as a benevolent member that only has the original poster's best interest in mind when he disrespects one product to tout another, that, get this, he sells. This is unadulterated BS and you and Audiooracle know it. He had one thing in mind--his pocketbook. If this type of thread hijacking is allowed to proliferate there will be no more discussions and only sales pitches. I cannot believe the moderators allow this self-serving thread hijacking to go on here. I don't take it personally that someone puts down a product that I and others have voted for with their pocketbooks (and speakers' sounds are all subjective, aren't they, although I have yet to hear Wilson products that don't completely blow me away with their sonics), but that someone is desperate enough to put down another product to sell their own. Fortunately there are many fine dealers on Audiogon who don' t resort to these low-down and mean tactics. And don't forget that Wilson is an Audiogon sponsor. |
I've heard Wilsons and own an X250.5 amplifier.
I think you will have an excellent combination of warmth, dynamic drive, detail and musicality along with natural rendition of instruments. Wilson speakers are extremely resolving and I think Pass will mate very well with them. |
Boy you guys are really tough! Anyone who offers you a bit of advice to check out a product is seen as hawking his wares.
I have recommended countless times products that I don't sell!
I have said BAT makes very good products, as well as Ayre, and I have never said a Watt Puppy isn't a good speaker, it is but there are alternatives like the Usher which is on par or just plain outperforms it and for less money! How do I know this I used to sell a boat load of Wilson's and I have set them up dozens of times, they are a very fine speaker but at the price points just plain over priced at $28k
The line I am lining my pockets is ridiculous, I do not sell out of territory and Usher does a good job of protecting their dealers, so it is very unlikly one of you fine chaps is going to come and see me anyway!
The fact of the matter is that if I was shopping for a product I would gladly solicit the guidance of my peers.
This is a "forum" is it not? When anyone takes out a page of advertiment in a magazine and proclaims X is great or consider Y it is to gain peoples attention, it is for the person to decide for themselves.
Whether of not you believe X is better than Y it is to your best interests to gain the perspective of someone who may just know more than you do.
I have been doing this professionally for twenty years, I am known in this industry by most of the companies out there, and I have sold and setup over the years hundreds of speakers, and I have taken apart and fixed most of them.
I know what is good, and for several of my customers who have taken the plunge and bought these wonderful speakers they have smiles from ear to ear.
I have very little to gain by calling your attention to these speakers unless you are in NJ or NY or some state close by and then please be my guest and stop by for a listen. A local Usher dealer might gain if someone reads the post and actually checked out these speakers, maybe someday one of you posters might actually take a listen and say "gee that guy was right and he saved me alot of dough."
If you guys want to play the name game and pay two to three times more than you have to please consider doing it your way.
How does this profit me? The answer is not one iota.
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Used W/P 7s are an excellent value and will perform very well with a Pass 250.5. I am presuming that you do not have easy access to hearing the speakers or you would have done so already. If you have to go on brand reputation you cannot go wrong with Wilson. That said I think it is highly probable that you will like the combination, especially if you follow Wilson's setup procedures listed in the manual. And if you don't you can resell them easily because demand is high. |
Thanks to those of you who are sticking to the subject matter. To clear up any "price vs performance" issues, I can get a pair of WP 7's with about 1 year of use on them for around $12,500. I believe the "other" speakers recommended in this posting cost more. If I were spending $25,000 on new speakers, I would probably take the time to seek out speakers in that price range and listen to them, but I live in West Virginia with sick parents and I can't do this. I believe the WP 7's will make me happy at the selling price I'm getting them. |
Please enjoy them at that price point they are a good deal, the "other" speakers costs $14,400 and $16,400 for their larger version. If you ever in your travels run across a pair I would love to hear your impression.
The whole idea of my post was to offer you an alternative that is reasonably priced which performs incredibly well which you may have enjoyed more.
You will be hearing a lot about this brand in the coming year, I guarantee you will see numerous reviewers hailing this product line as well as the AMR CD 77 I talk about as a new shift in the market, namely products which perform extraordinarily well and are affordable, it is a shame that for so many people who dream of Wilson would never be able to afford them unless they are used in the first place.
I love to buy and sell American whenever possible but I am also committed to finding mind blowing products that are affordable.
I am sorry is I "hijacked your thread."
As per Rwlary who must defend the Wilson's that he loves against all criticisim, know this I have sold and owned more WP than you can imagine! They do make an excellent product, have great service and believe in what they do, they have been a model for the industry as what is possible in engineering, but Wilson, Kharma, Avalon all charge an awful lot of money for their superb products, and in the end many people have fallen for the marketing of many of these companies in proclaiming that corian, methacrylite, carbon fiber is better than wood, mdf, lead and expoxies.
Performance shouldn't have to come down to how much it costs but how good it sounds. |
Audiooracle, I do not have a beef with those who don't like Wilson products. There is no arguing in matters of taste. You have as usual completely missed my point. What I get tired of is sellers who bash the competition in an attempt to sell their products, especially those who offer "advice" unsolicited. I am sure you want to play with the big boys. I have been in techical sales for more than 20 years and never have resorted to downgrading my competition, but I can tell you that you only look ignorant when you claim that Wilson changes a tweeter and overcharges so that he can buy a Ferrari. Obviously you don't understand the costs of R&D. So far as I am aware, Usher nor most other companies have advanced the state of the art such as Wilson, Vandersteen, Audio Research, Linn, and others have done. There is a reason Wilson sells thousands of very expensive speakers a year. Spenceroo, I regret that your innocuous thread has been transformed into something you didn't want. Good luck and enjoy the WP7's or whatever you decide. |
Audiooracle,
I understand your intentions, and your apology is accepted. Thanks to everyone who gave me some insight about the WP's. I think I'm going to give them a try. |
Audiooracle, I truly understand your intentions.
In that regard, it is unethical to sell in the threads. Please stop.
Thank you. |
Audiooracle, I saw recently that Joe D'Appolito, knowingly called "Paul DiAppolito" by that other unbiased sage of Usher speaker technology Aintitgr8, changed the tweeter and midrange of his speakers to beryllium and has been driving his Ferrari reconfigured from carbon fiber, aluminum and titanium to wood, mdf, lead and epoxy, all the way to the last century.
As with you, just trying to be informative.
No axe to grind here, obviously. |
Khrys, dude, thanks for the dose of morning entertainment. This was a good one! |
Hey Khrys I did find that amusing!
As I said guys it is your money, the people who have heard and bought the BE series of Ushers know just how good they are.
I wish Usher had better ads, and made smaller speakers but look at the two reviews for them in the reviews section, and both guys thought the Usher's were in the same league as much more expenisve speakers that cost double to triple the price.
I know that in the next few years Usher will emerge to the reviews and limelight they deserve, Paul DiAppolito not included. |
I think it may depend on what kind of music you listen to. Based my my experience with WP 6s I owned for a year or so, the soundstage is very engaging. The low end is spectacular and very satisfying: detailed and not boomy, clear and not opaque; the bass attaches itself the the instrument producing it; it's not just an amorphous bass cloud. (In fact the Puppy bass is about state of the art to my ears.) But if you listen to a lot of vocals, especially popular music, make sure you audition first.
The vocals (REM, Beatles, Karen Carpenter) were mechanical and grating in my system (Pass X350 amp and Accuphase DP75V). This was not the case with former Aerial 10Ts in the same system.
(Von Schweikert vocals and mids/highs in general are also smooth and excellent in tonality, and a switch to Wilson might be a shock if you are coming from th VSR sound.)
Classical music was very good though, with a little buzziness on a piano notes on just a few CDs. |
Try Mbl 9011, the best power amplifier money can buy! |
