Scaena1, thanks for cutting to the chase. I will be there for your demonstration. |
Tbg - Given your impressive system, I look forward to meeting you and getting your impressions.I have found the Accustic Arts offers quality CD playback. |
Has anyone else heard these players recently? Bob |
Scaena1: Were you intending to mention that Scaena Loudspeakers and Nova Physics, maker of the Memory Player, are basically the same people, i.e., Bishoff and Porzilli? I've read your contributions to this thread several times and for whatever reason, that detail does not come through.
I heard your Memory Player in the Laufer Teknics room at the Stereophile show and the sound was superb. You should really take credit for this first-rate product. |
Raquel-Thanks for your kind comments. Mark Porzilli's and George Bischoff's involvement with both the Nova Physics Group and Scaena loudspeakers is well known. However, Scaena and Nova Physics are two completely independent companies with different ownerships. Neither I or Scaena Loudspeakers - the company - have any financial or other interest in Nova Physics and therefore can take no credit for the sound produced by the MP, except, of course, when exhibited with Scaena loudspeakers. |
Sceana1: Thank you for the response, but knowing a bit about the hi-fi industry, I'm still betting that the left side of Messrs. Porzilli and Bischoffs' garage is Memory Player and the right side of the garage is Sceana. "Scaena and Nova Physics are two completely independent companies"?? -- I would be very surprised if these two names have even been registered as d/b/a's.
The common involvement of these gentlemen with "Nova Physics" and "Sceana" should always be disclosed where the two products are shown together or are discussed publicly together as you have done here -- the use of one manufacturer's product at a show by another manufacturer, or one manufacturer's discussion of that fact in a public forum such as Audiogon, is a strong endorsement of that product, and any commonality of ownership, management and/or design team in such instances needs to be known by potential buyers.
The above said, I again reiterate that the Memory Player sounded great to me, and someone whose opinion I greatly respect has told me that the Sceana speakers are likewise superb. |
Bigamp - If there is a bonfide shootout scheduled at RMAF, I will be there with my gear. I will ask Al Stiefel if we can do a shootout, or if anything is/can be planned.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I hope you will be there regardless, Steve, showing your wares. |
Drubin - I've been to the show before. I have to have my own room and system if I do the show, and that means 3 days driving each way pulling a trailer, plus the three show days. I just cannot afford the time. I'm backlogged 15 weeks right now. If you were a customer waiting this long, would you want to wait another 1.5 weeks?
I'm willing to fly out for a one-day demo, but that's all I have time for.
Steve N. |
Understandable, but too bad. |
And maybe you need to add staff to handle all the demand. |
Drubin - I do have a cable builder, but for the mods and product assembly, there is noone capable in this location. I plan to outsource the assembly of my circuit boards soon and transition out of the modding business. This should solve it.
Steve N. |
Raquel- Again, the relationship of Mark Porzilli and George Bischoff to both Nova Physics and Scaena Loudspeakers is well known and was specifically mentioned in this thread prior to my post by AudioOracle-hence it did not appear necessary to repeat it. It has been mentioned in almost every show report that has appeared about our shared rooms at CES and NY HE 2007 and contrary to not disclosing a shared heritage - we are proud of it, and attendees at shows are so informed. And no-Scaena Loudspeakers are not conceived, manufactured or assembled in Mark or George's garage, left or right side, or any other garage - unless that garage can accommodate: a million dollar CNC machine the size of a school bus that is used to fabricate the aluminum parts, the truck size water jet used to fabricate the base, or the equipment needed to form and make the ceramic composite parts. And finally, Scaena is a Florida Corporation since 2005 in which two(Mark and George)of the four Scaena shareholders also participate in Nova Physics. |
Sceana1: Your first three posts to this thread (on 7/17, 7/18 and 7/24) very much give the impression that the Memory Player is completely unrelated to the Sceana speakers, but you now confirm that they share some of the same principals. If AudioOracle mentioned the relationship earlier in this very, very long thread, I apologize, but I trust you will appreciate that there has been a great deal of shilling in a variety of forms occurring on this site of late, and I again note that your posts very much imply that there is no relationship between the two companies.
In addition, Messrs. Porzilli and Bischoff are simply not household names to audiophiles as you state -- I happen to know of Melos and Pipedreams, but a large portion of the people reading this thread do not.
PS - I would not have suggested that these gentlemens' endeavors are a garage operation if they had actually managed to bring the Memory Player to market as a real product. Only a handful have been made, but the thing has supposedly been in existence for well over a year -- this is very typical of a two-channel garage operation. My comment was unnecessary, but I perceived a failure to disclose an affiliation between related parties deserving of ridicule. |
Raquel, I think your points are well taken. Here is how I would comment on the whole garage based thinking.
I would say that that almost all of the smaller companies are one to 10 person operations, and almost all of the larger more established companies are not.
Examples of large companies; CJ, ARC, Krell, Levinsion,etc.
Examples of small compamies: CAT, Resolution Audio, Lamm, etc.
Some of the best sounding gear comes from some of these smaller companies.
I remember many years ago when a dedicated recording engineer hand made out of corrian an ultra high performance two way recording monitor to master his own recordings on.
That man was David Wilson. Fast forward and look at the company now, they are not in a garage now. This is the story with many of the now giants of this and many other operations.
Apple computer was started in a garage.
What matters is your comfort level in the product, technology, and the people behind the product.
Part of the charm is that most of the products we covet are rare hand made devices. |
Audiooracle, I agree with your view. It's usually the small companies that push the envelope and come up with groundbreaking ideas. If that works out well and they can also manage business dynamics they may grow into larger outfits. So yes, buying product from smaller companies is more risky for the consumer but usually has the better sounding products in return because they are run by extreme enthusiasts. Larger companies have the more stable service and lower reliability issues, and unfortunately loose some edge over time. Their world is then run by metrics of ROI (Return On Investment) and sales growth etc.
How does this rationale work for the people behind the Memory Player? Well, if they can't bring a product to market within a year by building a steady customer base, then they haven't mastered the fundamentals of creating a solid business. Or the product just doesn't really fall into the "breakthrough" category as perceived by the market.
I personally would very much like to see this company succeed, I love the apparent new thinking, technology lead ideas. But it seems like the value proposition of the Memory Player is not catching on...and that's disappointing! |
"Well, if they can't bring a product to market within a year by building a steady customer base, then they haven't mastered the fundamentals of creating a solid business. Or the product just doesn't really fall into the "breakthrough" category as perceived by the market."
Mtkhl567- Excellent point. It's been well over a year since
the ST's first report about the MP, and the only dealer NP has is Audiooracle....
Maybe they were waiting for the 32bit DAC chips before increasing production or maybe they've missed their window of opportunity.
PSAudio has already announced a new transport that will rip/playback from a solid state memory and have a PC storage interface, along with an updated version the Digital Lens.
If RUR is NP's "ace in the hole," maybe they should be in the software business. |
If RUR is NP's "ace in the hole," maybe they should be in the software business. Not trying to sound like a broken record, but still waiting to hear how RUR is any different than bit-perfect ripping, which is already done by EAC and JRiver. Bit-perfect ripping reads and re-reads until all the bits are right; sounds familiar... |
Value proposition? I believe there are much easier and cheaper ways of doing the same thing, and even better. Why duplicate a PC when you can just buy one? Why limit the customer to one DAC when there are so many to choose from? How does the MP support networked music streaming like the Squeezebox? |
I've posted here more than once saying that Nova ought to be a software house, assuming RUR and (more importantly) the Reed-Solomon extraction methods are high value proprietary code. The rest of this solution is, frankly, hardware commodity stuff (no offense to anyone) that could be designed and built by any number of technically proficient enterprises. And therein lies the rub; the fact that the revolutionary software is installed in reportedly substandard medium-quality hardware, supported by a skeleton crew of developers and distributor(s), marketed through a poorly designed clearly-rushed website...all for the low price of $10,000+......that's a problem.
I would LOVE for Nova to succeed. It would push the envelope. |
the fact that the revolutionary software is installed in reportedly substandard medium-quality hardware Still waiting to hear what's revolutionary. They state on their web site that re-reading is not new. We also know it's not new since EAC and JRiver have been doing it for years. If they do things like adjust the laser during re-reads, who cares? In the end, you still get a bit-perfect copy with EAC or JRiver. Is memory playback new? I don't believe so--you can play a song from a RAM disk. In my opinion, they would have more credibility if they changed their marketing approach from what appears to be "this is rocket science" to "hey, if you're not PC savvy and want to get the benefits of PC-based audio, like memory playback and bit-perfect ripping, our box does it all for $10K. Sure you can do it yourself for under $2K, but you're not PC savvy." |
This is the wrong time for anyone to be marketing standalone players, even pc clones. The market is moving rapidly to more flexible servers and networked systems, both for audio and video. The prooduct is a retro design, though probably wasn't envisaged as such by it's designers a few years ago, and that recognition may be the real reason it is stalled. |
I used the term "revolutionary" to give the benefit of the doubt. Supposedly their RUR, aside from the EAC-like " rip to it hurts" error rereading, strips bad-sounding Reed Solomon EC data off the disc, but nowhere is there proof that this is unique, beneficial or even part of the signal path. No a/b has been done, nothing.
I'm still not giving up that the Clement Perrys of the world weren't duped, and actually heard something "revolutionary" here. Why else would they report this (he says rhetorically)? |
I have two friends whom I trust who have heard the MP and were shocked at how good it sounded. I know full well that many believe a computer hard drive and a dac or sound board can equal it as bits are bits. I know this is not the case, however, given personal experience. I have not heard the MP except in the Behold suite, so I am anxious to hear it in an analog system at the RMAF. I hope there will be an opportunity to compare it with some known cd player or other hard-drive system, such as the VRS. |
"I know full well that many believe a computer hard drive and a dac or sound board can equal it as bits are bits. I know this is not the case, however, given personal experience. I have not heard the MP except in the Behold suite, so I am anxious to hear it in an analog system at the RMAF."
Norm- if you haven't heard the MP in your system against other PC based playback systems, how can you say they don't equal or surpass the the MP? |
Tedmbrady - Reviewers, like many audiophiles that have not reached audio nirvana can be awed when there is a big improvement in their systems. It is all relative. I have learned not to trust reviewers and be very wary of their system quality. I dont just send my stuff to ANY reviewer anymore. Most of their systems are not up to the standards of my own I believe. |
Tbg - I heard a Behold system at CES and was not impressed. I even brought my own music track for them to rip. Maybe it was the setup because I have heard that it can sound very good. I examined the technology and made some observations:
1) the Clock used for the digital transmission to the Behold was the high-frequency CPU clock according to the exhibitors, a simple oscillator, not a separate low-jitter master clock
2) The digital 50 ohm lines to the Behold system were very long, about 20 feet, and were only two coax cables for two channels, rather than a clock and data separated for each channel and running "source-synchronous". Likely to introduce jitter IMO.
3) The DAC's in the Behold amps were integrated, but no reclocker etc..
4) I thought the build quality was exceptional, but I have read lots of feedback saying just the opposite.... |
Kana813, I never said that other hard-drive systems could not equal or surpass the MP. I said that hard-drive systems do not all sound alike. I have heard some that I would not own, including my Mac G4 playing cds even in 44.1. Also the early VRS systems were quite poor.
Audioengr, I agree that the MP in the Behold suite at CES was not impressive, but the same system with the exception of the speakers at the RMAF was quite good.
Of course neither used the MP with its 32 bit dac. |
Tbg, in what ways were the VRS system poor, in it's implementation or sound quality, as U are the first to have said something like this. I like feedback |
Vinlorjazz, this was the first prototype at the last VSAC in Washington. It sounded like a cheap cd player. I heard a newer version at the RMAF two years ago. Although I did not know any of the equipment being used, I thought the sound was good. I thought I would hear it at CES that January, but VRS was a no show. |
Unfortunately, I had taken very ill. We will be a RMAF and CES. Is this Norm by chance? |
Yes it is. May I assume this is Vince? I very much look forward to hearing both your unit as well as the MP with its 32 bit dac.
Please don't take my comments about the earlier version as anything more than an example that all hard-drive based units don't sound alike. |
Yes, it is I. Looking forward to seeing U again and it's also nice to know that U are still interested in hard drive based systems. |
Is there any final resolution as to whether those at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest will get to hear the Memory Player and its 32 bit dac compared with the VRS unit? |
I see that both Nova Physics & VRS Audio are on the line-up at RMAF. If anyone had a chance to hear either of these, or compare them, please chime in.
Thanks |
I heard the Nova Physics in the Scaena speaker room at RMAF. Although I was not able to hear my own music (they ripped it for me but couldn't find it in the system the next day) the memory Player/ASR/Scaena system sounded quite good. I cannot compare it to anything else I heard becuase everything (room, treatment, equipment, music, etc.) were different. Unfair to compare. I also did not hear the VRS. I heard other great digital players, including the EAR Acute, the Modwright Transporter, the AMR and the Linn Klimx, and all sounded very nice in their own setups. Impossible to say that the Memory Player was better or worse. |
I agree with Tembrady about the Scaena room sound. At least I can say that the MP 32 bit unit exists. I heard the present VRS also, but both it and the MP were on systems that I did not know. Both sounded good, but both paled after I heard the Feastrex speakers on Sunday.
I also heard the new Accustic Arts Tube dac, the AMR, the Exemplar/Shanling CD-3000, and the Einstein prototype player. The MP alone whetted my appetite given what I heard. Maybe, however, it was a result of my prior expectations. |
TBG, Feastrex where? In the Lamm room (Lotus)? Yeah, they sounded good, but I spent only a few min in there. I was due downstairs to meet a buddy. |
Tedmbrady, yes in the Lotus room, but the electronics was not broken in until Sunday. It is a shame that none of the demonstrators can ever use equipment that is broken in. I just don't understand how anyone can be impressed with anything on the first or second days. Just when the shows are about to close, everything is beginning to sound right. |
I take it the shootout never happened at RMAF... |
If the shootout happened, it was not widely publicized. |
