What is Your Opinion of Atmos Music?

@brianlucey , I was on your website, very nice list of accomplishments, congrats. If you have time can you post a pic of your atmos setup? If you are too busy that’s OK, thanks.

@tablejockey i was with you until I really dug in. Atmos on any headphone gives Joe average phantom center image and a "great room" experience previously reserved for you and me in stereo. Headphone stereo is pretty bad compared to a room. Headphone atmos done well is miraculous. It’s early days. Mixing is all over the board. Mastering is nearly non existent. Analog mastering as I do here is just me. Stay curious. Apple is committed and musically it’s superior. If done well. Almost never. We don’t know the musical ceiling here. Stereo we do. Both are here to stay. 

brianlucey,

If one is listening thru headphones, I would imagine this new technology may be something to be interested in.

Since you're in the business of "creating the illusion" I "get" the ongoing push to expand the boundaries and possibilities. Your early guitar experience w/ Robert Fripp and being an actual working musician certainly gave your qualified ears.

Sitting on the sofa in an aesthetic and sonic appropriated room with the "best" gear possible is immersive enough for me. 

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@tablejockey , I have a similar situation, my room is well setup for atmos but it took effort. I totally discounted atmos in headphones, putting it in the category of upfiring speakers and atmos soundbars. Now that @brianlucey shared its a game its a game changer I am smiling. A really good stereo/headphone rig is $$$. I’ll bet I can get a good atmos headphone rig with a nice set of cans and one of those THX headphone amps for a lot less. What gets me REALLY excited if the idea of a SOA Atmos headphone rig. Did you ever hear of Jim Fosgate? Black Ice audio has partnered with him on their designs. They have a tube based headphone amp and are bringing out a SOA headphone amp (The Aries) that Jim designed to replicate his own SOA audio system. I am getting the idea of an tube based, SOA headphone/atmos system that wouldn’t be affordable or practical for my room.

Black Ice demoed the new Aries headphone amp at Cedia 2022 and it should be out soon, this video is from the prototype:

Jim Fosgate breaks down the design strategy for the Aries headphone amp, it should be out soon. This interview is early stages:

'Did you ever hear of Jim Fosgate? Black Ice audio has partnered with him on their designs. They have a tube based headphone amp and are bringing out a SOA headphone amp (The Aries) that Jim designed to replicate his own SOA audio system. 

kota1-

No doubt when the Foz introduces something unique, it's worth a listen.

I remember the "Punch" car audio days of the 80's and use his tubed signature phono amp introduced 10 years ago.

I guess my tinnitus/frequency deficient ridden ears just aren't interested in anything except a real cure for both of these afflictions.

While I'm not a home theater enthusiast, this is interesting- outdated perhaps based on whatever the latest iteration is, but perhaps the tube magic makes it worthwhile.

FOSGATE AUDIONICS FAP V1 NEW OLD STOCK #3... For Sale | Audiogon

I saw that Fosgate piece yesterday and of course immediately wanted it. Then I read the Stereophile review by Kal and realized it wasn't for me. If it needs service you gonna call?

@brianlucey can you recommend a pair of headphones for atmos music? I noticed the headphones have to be enabled for atmos. Just pulled the trigger on a new headphone amp, Thanks.

@kota1 yeah so that's incorrect. For listening to Atmos, you have two general categories of options, Apple Music and Amazon/tidal.  The latter uses the Dolby Binaural, which has the 3d data included in the streaming file which means it can play on any headphones. Apple has their own proprietary spatial DSP happening when you use the high-end Apple products, which is the Apple Max or the AirPod Pro. If you don't listen with those products than Apple uses something similar to the Dolby binaural.  So where do you intend to listen? What is the DA converter and headphone amp that you intend to use? How much do you have to spend on headphones?

ima cool with checking it out... compared to the money spent on unsavory adventures that ruin one's life, this is money in da bank

@brianlucey , I have been streaming Atmos music either using Tidal through a firestick (it is not very good) OR through using the Atmos renderer in the X-Box which converts everything to Atmos once you select it as your audio output.

Either one sounds better than Dolby Surround upmixer on my processor.

I intend to listen in my main listening system (in my profile). The DAC/pre I bought is the Sony Signature TA-ZH1ES. I can use it as a DAC with my HT processor, as a 2 CH preamp connected directly with my active speakers (they have both XLR and RCA inputs with a toggle switch), and as a headphone amp. My transport/streamer is my Sony Universal/Blue-Ray player, my Onkyo DAP (android OS), or my Bluesound Node. I am thinking about Sony’s matching headphones, the Signature MDR-Z1R and have a budget of around $2K. I can get an Apple product if necessary. Thanks for any advice.

@kota1

I intend to listen in my main listening system (in my profile). The DAC/pre I bought is the Sony Signature TA-ZH1ES. I can use it as a DAC with my HT processor, as a 2 CH preamp connected directly with my active speakers (they have both XLR and RCA inputs with a toggle switch), and as a headphone amp. My transport/streamer is my Sony Universal/Blue-Ray player, my Onkyo DAP (android OS), or my Bluesound Node. I am thinking about Sony’s matching headphones, the Signature MDR-Z1R and have a budget of around $2K. I can get an Apple product if necessary. Thanks for any advice.

I have three headphones: Senny HD650, Sony Z1R and Apple AirPods Max (in order of acquisition). I reckon if you already have the Sony signature player you’d be mad not to get the matching headphones. They are beautifully constructed and detailed, light and most comfortable to wear despite the large-ish size, and of course sound very good. Bass is extended and well rendered. Detail retrieval is very nice. Voicing of the treble is exciting but can overcook things at times on modern productions with processed vocals. I usually use them at my home office desk powered by a Chord Mojo, so they aren’t getting any help. I have the recurring fantasy of running them from Woo Audio Fireflies, which I should try. But I’m not a headphone freak so it’s a ways down my listening/shopping list. My usual source is Apple Music: the spatial audio tracks play as expected but the head-tracking doesn’t, of course.

What about AirPods Max? I use them a lot: noise cancelling is effective (which also means you can enjoy listening at lower levels) and the spatial effect is better. Head-tracking is fun (when running on devices that support it, Apple Silicon Mac, iPhone or iPad in my case) and nails the illusion of audio coming from the image source (I’ve done the LiDAR thing on my ears). Despite the smaller drivers (40 mm on Apple vs 70 mm on Sony) the bass isn’t lacking in quality or quantity—I think Sony actually made the Apple drivers judging by published images. The somewhat smoother/darker/mellower high-end is preferable on certain tracks. Distortion is low and detail is excellent. They are at least as well made. And of course, wireless is very handy. But that means 24/48 tops as Apple hasn’t gone any further.

I’d get both of course (easy to say when I already did). But you’d want an Apple source device also—otherwise you are wasting usability and spatial potential—that’s a bigger decision. I gave up on Tidal/MQA for example, so my source lineup and yours don’t correlate at all. If you want to dip your toe in at less expense, most reports suggest the new series AirPods Pro are quite good.

@kota1 I forgot to mention: the cheapest Apple source (if you did want to try AirPods Pro or Max) is of course an AppleTV box. You probably get a free trial period of Apple Music with that. And you get to try all the spatial things.

@axo1989 , thanks for the tips. I have been less than thrilled with the Firestick, but it integrates well with Tidal and Atmos music. I agree it is time to take the leap into the apple ecosystem and the new ATV4K seems easy enough. It is nice to have so many choices of headphones and have never gotten into them much before. I was looking at getting a separate preamp for 2 CH in my main HT system and this checked that box. I was looking at DAC’s like the Chord Qutest and this checked that box too, the Qutest was about $300 less but lacked all of the other features this unit has. Finally I have never gone down the headphone rabbit hole because I prefer speakers. The fact that this unit had the other features I wanted the headphone amp was what pushed me over the edge to pull the trigger. I use a Sony universal player for CD’s. SACD’s, streaming via DLNA, and bluerays. I like the sound signature and we’ll see how it works as a transport for this unit. Just wanted to get some advice before jumping in with headphones that will do both 2 CH and atmos.

Apple "Spatial Audio" mix might be different than the Dolby Atmos mix created in the studio if you are using headphones. Apple has its own "spatial audio" renderer for headphones that takes the original atmos mix and puts it through its own renderer UNLESS you are using ATV4K via HDMI to a receiver. If you want the original mix on headphones use Tidal. Check out this diagram and the follow up article:

@kota1 The article is out of date in some respects, Apple added spatial audio monitoring to Logic Pro at version 10.7.3 (current version is 10.7.5). Both Apple and Dolby user guidance describe this (on the production side, which the writer was addressing).

To be terminologically precise, you would be listening to the same mix, but a different rendering. I can’t offer an opinion on whether the spatial audio renderer is better/worse, I haven’t used Atmos via the other services. From your position, you are still faced with different playback scenarios to (potentially) try out one way or another.

@axo1989 , it isn't necessarily good or bad, but different. Dolby makes a big deal about artist intent, they should use the same renderer if possible IMO.

That solves your problem, no need to get an Apple thing, stick with Sony. The Z1R are extra-nice headphones.

@axo1989 👍

@donavabdear ​​​​@brianlucey 

You might like:

Upcoming Events for Engineers and Professionals who want to learn more about Atmos Music:

Producing in Atmos workshop:

https://register.gotowebinar.com/register/1146420520915394135

Dolby Atmos Music at NAMM 2022

A tour of the Atmos studio at Sweetwater. FWIW I got my Black Lion power conditioner and Auralex Sustain diffusors at Sweetwater and got great deals and support. In the video they are using 9 bed channels and IMO the wide channels are very important and use a 9.2.7 setup personally:

@kota1 I have been trying to set up my atmos system for a movie in a few months and have been getting frustrated because it is still a moving target. No standard really but at the same time maybe that will release a lot of creativity. So far I've really been unimpressed with atmos music mixes with a few exceptions, seems like when they sound like good stereo they are better. I know the future is atmos it doesn't matter if we have 2 ears our brains interpret sound constantly, emotion is really the final goal walking down a path with headphones that make you shiver because you felt something come at you from behind is the emotional content that will be the future. Stereo people often talk about soundstage and depth with reverence, well atmos is a format that lives there, my hope is that the format isn't perverted so much that it becomes cheesy, I do feel like it's getting a bad start like @brianlucey said so far the quality has been pretty bad in music, movies have taken to atmos very well, but like when stereo came in it was used poorly, I hope creative adults in the room (maybe AES or SEMPTE) will set some good guidelines about mixing atmos.

@donavabdear , Atmos has competition from Sony 360, THX has an immersive codec, Sennheiser has Ambeo, and Xperia has DTS-X. I don’t think AES can be brand specific without causing a controversy. All you need is to go visit some studios and get a feel for it. The Dubstage is local, I think @brianlucey has extended an invitation in the other thread. There are online classes sponsored by Dolby and I am sure local stuff in LA. If I were in LA I would make a beeline to the Dubstage but you likely already have friends in the "mix" so to speak. You learn by doing and it looks like a blast from the videos I watch. What do you think?

@kota1 You've made a good point but Atmos seems to be what the stadios are falling over themselves putting in. I say the first display of Atmos many years ago touting object based mixing, I didn't take it seriously but if you think about it that's the answer because it can translate to only a few speakers and that's how your brain works anyway. Pan pots between 2 sources really don't make sense describing something in nature. Seems you are the expert at sound codecs, I don't know of any others that are in the race for me. What are some of the strengths of the other formats over Atmos?

@donavabdear

As for the strengths of the other formats I would say DST-X/ Imax Enhanced is more dynamic in movies but there is no music I am aware of in that format. Auro-3D is not being produced right now but they never really got traction. Sony is gaining traction in Sony 360 music on Tidal and as a Codec available on Sound United products. I think it is targetd more for headphones. Sennheiser Ambeo is mixed more for commercial venues. THX Spatial Audio is available as an upmixer in certain computers and phones. The elephant in the room is Dolby and when Atmos became available on Apple Music the demand for atmos mixes went through the roof. I would learn Atmos before learning any of the others. I’ll bet if you start going through Apple Music spatial audio mixes you will quickly learn the mixes you like. Find out who the engineers are that mixed those tracks and that would be a good starting point. Your community has been very approachable in my experience and I’ll bet an e-mail with a compliment about the mixes you liked followed up by a "If you were me how would you get started" will get you in the fast lane so I can start listening to YOUR mixes.

Atmos Music in a Benz:

I have the last Kenny Wayne Shepard Atmos Blueray, here is the process of mixing the next one: