Maybe it's just coincidence, but I have experienced an increasing number of buyers lately whose only question is "what's your best price?" in response to an "OBO" listing. Should such moronic inquiries simply be ignored -- or is there an appropriate/productive response?
i agree with tvad that asking for "the best price" is highly correlated with not buying an item.
tvad, even though you and i have had our differences in the past, i respect you as a reasonable man and one of great intellect. your wisdom is evident in many of your posts.
if you are interested in the item, you might ask some questions, but the stronger your interest, the higher the probability that you will "bid" on the item, even if your price is less than the seller is willing to accept.
i would use, as a rule of thumb, a principle, i learned in my first economic course in college:
the value in use= the value in exchange., if i were to buy a used item.
i admit to having sold on audiogon, but i have never been a buyer.
Soon after reading this post I received an email (just yesterday) from a potential buyer with that god awful question "What is the absolute bottom dollar you would accept". Well I thought for a few moments as to how I should answer this, a smart a-- response or be nice. I took the nice route thinking I do want to sell these speakers and hey, you never know. Today I got the "thanks but I found something cheaper and closer. Most responses to this post agree that this question rarely ends in a sale and now I am a believer too, I'm going for the smart a-- response next time.
I have to add that on Head-Fi (and on other hobbyist sites) they do not have an eBay-like system that AudioGon has. So there is no way to "bid" on those items.
I take exception to suggestiong only the buyer gets to dictate pricing. I have not only asked a buyer what their best price is but have also been asked that question on an item I had for sale. In several instances, on both sides of the transaction, it has resulted in a completed transaction. I have an excellent reputation and have many references. I have 40+ transaction on Head-Fi and 100's of other on other hobbyist sited through the years. Many of which are high dolllar items. I'm hardly a newbie.
Ignoring anyone who asks for a best price only reduces the potential for sale. I prefer to expand all my potential options. It doesn't take that much time or effort to send an email or response. I've had people who never even discussed price, had me send many pics, ask many questions, commit to purchases only to flake out. There are many things in business transactions that are frustrating. That's just business. If I'm selling something, anyone is free to ask me any legit question they want. I promise I won't whine about it later. At least not publicly. LoL :)
Baka1969, you are right, up to a point. It IS just business.
Tvad, I think this may be that if MSRP was $1200 and it is listed at $800 and you get it for $500 that is a much better deal than it being listed at $500 and paying "full price" for it. $500 is not always $500.
Tvad, The Buyer knows what is "true" for him/her, and likewise the Seller. I think what baka1969 and a few others are saying is that whatever it takes to make the deal go through is what it takes, and the "truth" which gets both sides there is what it is. I should keep that in mind myself.
But circumstances change.There are a lot of Americans who would gladly sell their house today for 20% less than a number they would have laughed at 4 years ago.
Asking a seller "what's your best price" as your first communication -- without expressing any independent interest or making a counter offer to the seller's asking price -- is ALWAYS an a-hole move. Period. It should be ignored or responded to in-kind. The question is an insult to the seller b/c it suggests that you think the seller stupid enough to negotiate against himself. The fact that the seller might be willing to take less than the asking price is no defense to this strategy and doesn't relieve the buyer from making a counter-offer to find that out.
it suggests that you think the seller stupid enough to negotiate against himself. The fact that the seller might be willing to take less than the asking price is no defense to this strategy and doesn't relieve the buyer from making a counter-offer to find that out.
That says it all, Jeffrey. Never negotiate against yourself. If your ad says OBO, then its up to the buyer to make an offer.
After making 3 purchases here on Audiogon, and perpetually being a potential buyer, here are a few thoughts from a buyer's perspective FWTW: 1. When a seller lists an item for sale, especially with the "OBO" stipulation, I, and I believe most buyers, consider the asking price to be similar to a MRSP (manufacturer's suggested retail price) for new products. We could, if we were complete dorks, call it the SSP (seller's suggested price). 2. The seller's asking/listed price is his optimal or highest expected price. But the buyer may accrpt a lower price. 3. When a buyer asks for the seller's best price, I agree with sogood51 that he is basically saying: "I know your optimal price but let's cut to the chase, what will you sell it to me for?" Understandably, this is irratating to sellers since they are now required,in effect, to make the opening bid in the expected price and terms negotiations. The seller, rather than just denying or counter offering the buyers' bids in the expected negotiations, has lost the initiative to the buyer and must instead decide what price is actually acceptable to both parties.I think sellers should determine this price prior to negotiating with potential buyers. 4. If the seller uses the "Firm" designation, confusion is eliminated since the buyer knows the asking price must be met in order to obtain the item. 5. I take offense at the suggestion that asking What's your best price? is moronic. I am a noted and very obvious moron of the highest order and I never asked for a best price but I might have, I'm not sure. After all, I am a moron.
"OBO" means just that. Make an offer--A specific price with a clear statement of what it covers or does not cover (shipping, PayPal, etc.).
OBO is NOT a request for a buyer to respond with "what is your best price". The seller has already made an opening offer and it is incumbent upon a potential buyer to make a specific bid.
Classified buying and selling (especially OBO sales) is very similar to an auction, just not as formal and the price frequently goes in the opposite direction from an auction. In an OBO classified the seller asks for the best price they think they can get and then, if there are multiple potential buyers, they secretly bid against each other with specific offers.
Many Audiogon auctions don't start out at the sellers best price because there is a hidden reserve. If a buyer wants to buy they are forced to make a specific offer.
So buyers, if you are serious make an offer already otherwise don't waste the sellers time.
I believe most here, including myself, who won't acknowledge a "what is your best price" buyer (particularly as an opening statement) do so from prior experience. I am sure there are just a small hand full that might actually be buyers, but most are not. I think they are in hopes that the seller might be desperate and perhaps the buyer thinking he might get this "deal of a lifetime". I say this from experience of selling a fair amount of audio here on Agon. I get this occasionally in my business as well (not audio related). Never, ever had a buyer.
I realize that my position here, which I am restating, is in the minority, but I've bought more than a fair amount of equipment here. More often than not, I've requested the seller's best price. And, more often than that, I would say the seller, thinking I would use that as the beginning of the price negotiation (instead of his initial asking price, which I actually do) probably got a lot more out of the deal than he expected. I think the statement which has been suggested, "I know your optimal price but let's cut to the chase, what will you sell it to me for?" sums up my intent perfectly.
In no way do I suggest someone is not justified for feeling the way they do, but taking things the absolute wrong way or ignoring my e-mails would have been to most probably leave money on the table by losing a good sale.
I am not sure if you were referring to my post or not. I am not intentionally trying to turn "OBO" into an auction. I was merely pointing out that it has some similarities to an auction if there are multiple bidders. Best offer wins.
Even fixed-price ads get offers for less than the asking price and can take on some aspects of an auction. My point is that anytime there are multiple buyers competing there are elements of an auction in play.
Try standing up at a real auction and bidding "what's your best price?". Auctioneer's don't have gavels just to bang on the podium.
"Has anyone reading this thread decided to alter his/her approach to negotiating as a result of the comments? 12-08-10: Tvad"
I have been tempted to change up how I negotiate how I purchase items here as some buyers of gear I sold low-balled me pretty badly but I have not. I still ask a lot of questions about an item if the details aren't there but I still won't ask what is your best price. On one item I'm thinking about asking what is their best price but I know I won't start off with that question and I'll be giving a full explanation as to why I'm making such a request.
I'm also not in retail sales nor am I an audio dealer or professional seller of audio gear.
No, not directed at any one post. I think we have many different types of sellers and buyers here at A-gon.
So this coin has more than two sides, And I understand that because I have been a seller and a buyer. My obo listings are always higher than my bottom dollar, and for a reason (some people will pay more without asking any questions). That said....If I get an email asking me what my bottom dollar price is?....I send them the answer, and it doesn't bother me at all. (I already know what I'll take when I list?).
Selling,
I sell to the first person that meets that $$$ figure (and you didn't meet it, until you send the cash.....I like paypal, and don't charge a fee), and it's that simple.
Buying,
As soon as we know the $$$ figure (bottom dollar)....I send you the money paypal direct transfer (very fast).
I don't like auctions, and I won't wait around long...... I have a need for speed (-:
This all works for me, although I'm sure many buyers and sellers like to dicker over price, and thats fine for them.
Jmcmorgan, You're right, this thread was initiated in 2006. HA! I can't speak for the other posters but I, being a moron, spent the last 4 years gathering my thoughts. Uh-oh, gotta go, I'm 4 years late for work! Just one more thought: I once asked a hooker "what's your best price?" She said "for $100 I'll do anything you'd like". I told her "OK, deal. I'd like you to paint my house". Sorry about the above, too much time on my hands lately.
Has no one here on AgoN heard of, or used, PayPal's personal money transfer function? No fee involved! You don't get Buyer Protection on private sales anyway -- why pay for it?
Nsgarch, In my country, the personal money transfer function has been turned off by PayPal to abide by the laws on transferring monies. I am told there are many countries where it is not allowed.
Lowballer's typically use that phrase as a water tester. "obo" encourages them and they smell blood in the water.
As a result I rarely even use "obo" any longer. 13 years ago AG once had a certain decorum and dignity among buyers and sellers. That's long gone, and some of this new breed are downright rude.
My last "obo" ad resulted in an offer to buy for 20% less than my asking price, which was already listed at 30% of retail. Of course I rejected the offer and sent the member a brief note that 70% off isn't good enough for you? That received a reply stating: "Dude, you listed it obo." I replied you're absolutely correct, and I've now fixed that, referring to the fact I removed the "obo" to the listing.
Seems like a greater percentage of buyers are looking for the "steal of a deal" than ever before. One has to be patient to locate a legitimate buyer. The rest, it's better to simply ignore them for they're not worth gettin' your blood pressure up.
Coltrane1, I end up not caring whether I put OBO or not. Most of the things I put out for sale have no reasonable 'blue book' value, and I generally put them out at lower prices than ebay or any other seller value I can find. I ignore lowballers. I have mentioned this elsewhere but I once had a tonearm which I got super cheap and so offered it super cheap (about 70% off the recent Audiogon used price), and I included shipping. And then some guy comes along and asks for a further 25% off. I later sent him an email saying he was exactly a day early and a dollar short (I told him I sold it for a dollar more to a guy who responded a day later). I am waiting for him to offer 75%+$1 on another thing...
With regard to best price you never know what is in a seller's mind or their situation regarding a piece of equipment.
As a buyer you ask if the price can be lower than the asking price and the buyer decides. If the answer is "no" then neither buyer nor seller is in any worse position than when they started.
To many people take a negotiation personally and see it as win/lose or become offended at offers or questions because they have an emotional relationship with thier audio gear.
Others become offended by "time wasters" that is buyers with questions. If you don't want to field questions and offers then make that clear in our ad but at your risk because you never know where an offer will lead.
I'd add to the "What's Your Best Price?" query these: "Is it still available", & "Why are you selling".
This may be highly non-PC here, but at least on fee-bay, items usually either sell, or they don't. People may ask legitimate questions, but you generally avoid the endless tire-kicker questions.
Also, I tend not to respond to one-sentence e-mails with no name attached.... just my 2 cents....
the reason an item is sold , in mnay cases, is the owner doesn't like the component any more. obviously, it would be poor advretising to say that "i am selling the xyz amp because i don't like it". thus asking why an item is being sold is usually redundant, and the naswer receieved may or may not be truthful.
however, how many are curious as to the reason an item is being sold ?
Generally I only care if an item is available to buy for a price I am willing to pay. But why someone is selling can sometimes be used as leverage to make a better deal if you are mercenary in your buying.
I had a friend who infuriated me as every single time he bought something, he'd ask: "Is that the best you can do?" It didn't matter if it was a high end store, or if he was at at a swap meet. The only place he wouldn't embarrass me was at a restaurant. It was always done with direct eye contact followed by a heavy sigh. Kind of a pantomime. He would fit right in here with this discussion.
As a buyer you ask if the price can be lower than the asking price and the buyer decides. If the answer is "no" then neither buyer nor seller is in any worse position than when they started.
If the buyer's first question is something like "I don't think I can get to your asking price, would you be open to a somewhat lower offer," I imagine that most sellers would not take offense. I know I wouldn't.
The offensive opener, IMO, is asking a seller "what's your best/lowest price." That is insulting to the seller's intelligence because it presumes that the only issue that matters to the buyer is price, and it presumes that the seller is stupid enough to negotiate against himself under those circumstances. In fact, because this is such an insulting approach, it probably works very infrequently -- so the buyer is worse off b/c he likely has missed a chance to have a successful negotation.
as a seller, consider this hypothetical situation:
a buyer offers a bid on the item than is less than you are willing to accept at the time.
a) will you counter with a price lower than your asking price
b) will you say the buyer's price is unacceptable?
c) not respond to the buyer.
now add another "what if":
the item is not sold within the first 30 days.
would you contact a buyer whose offer to you wad initially unaccepyable.
the point here , is the distinction between commerce and personal considerations.
so long as the buyer doesn't insult you , it seems that if the buyers offers a price that is low, there should be no problem for the seller. he can choose to ignore the bid or response that is in his best marketing interest.
some people respond personally to alleged insults , when the insult occurs because the seller chooses to be insulted.
a seller can decide not be insulted and ignore what he/she considers not in his interest to respond to without personal considerations.
Jb2K - Based on your logic the seller is also worse off because they missed a chance to have a successful negotiation because his feelings got in the way.
The approach is insulting only if you take it so. If you assume that the person has no skill at negotiation to use such an insulting approach and put your feelings aside it puts you in a position to convince them your price is fair.
Convincing people that your offer or asking price is acceptable despite any etiquette or personality defects they may have how to get the price you want on either side of the equation. Do you care if you sell to a jerk if he pays your price?
I've only been around A'gon in recent years. When the economy was good years ago did all this haggling and occasional low-balling occur? Part of me thinks audiophiles here are pushing harder for deals because of the economy and also to see what they can get away with.
I know for myself when I list something I try to keep it within market value. I'll do some pricing research here and on other sites to see what an item sold for or was listed at as well as condition and price accordingly. To my surprise even if I was around what seemed like fair market value to me I still got 30% or 50% offers below my list price. I still have not gotten the "what's your best price" bit at least not yet.
I must say though if a buyer worded the what's your best price question like how Jeffreybowman2k said it in his post earlier I wouldn't be so put off. Some buyers are very rude with their low-ball offers. No explanation or anything. I've learned to just play the game and counter or blow them off.
To those who have argued that sellers shouldn't let their feelings get in the way of a deal, consider this: the way the buyer negotiates (especially his choice of words) may indicate that the sale could run into trouble in other respects than agreeing on price. Someone who is overly aggressive on price may also be more likely to change his mind and not send a payment or quibble about the condition of the equipment he receives. Of course, buyers who do not ask "what is your best price" can do the same thing, but when doing business with strangers, impressions are important.
Personally, a low-ball price is easy to deal with. Just say "no". However, "what's your best price" is insulting, as many have stated, because it assumes you're stupid enough to bid against yourself. The low ball offer may be low, but at least it's an offer.
There's a special circle in Hell for people who ask that question. I can't imagine the amount of self-loathing and insecurity a person must have in order to ask that question. They must be petty pathetic people not living, but only existing if they ask that question. That question is something a terrorist would ask when buying explosive to shove up his anus. And yes, I would support waterboarding people who ask that question. It's an affront to common sense and the social order that people who ask that question have the right to vote and own guns! There ought to be a law banning that question, a constitutional amendment even. It would pass with unanimous bi-partisan support.
When you post an ad, you provide a price. If you also indicate "OBO" you are stating that you will accept less. We would all like to believe that we are immersed in a gentleman's pastime and therefore are above smarmy, crass concerns such as money - or, at the very least, put those financial matters in their proper place, well behind our sanctimonious pursuit of the absolute sound. So, the objections here seem to be mostly procedural.
What turns me off most is the impression that some jerk is just sending out 300 emails per day fishing for someone dumb or desperate enough to sell him product well below its current street value so that he can turn around and sell it at a profit. What nerve!!
I've stopped trying to sell my stuff. I have lots of spares and it looks like I will eventually die owning them. In a way, it has been good in that it makes me think twice about acquiring more.
Many of you are getting way to huffy about this topic. If schmucko has nothing better to do than send out mindless solicitations, have fun with him. There are many ways to do this. Let's turn this thread toward creative suggestions for wasting the time of these guys. Engage them, tempt them, mislead them and ultimately give them a taste of their own medicine. Drop tem on their pointy little heads.
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