Ozfly you might be right. I was trying to get to the core beliefs about which people are unwilling to compromise, at least until proven wrong as Tom suggests.
All of us have to approach this hobby with certain ideals that allowed us to even purchase the first product. Elizabeth mentioned the riaa curve and the fact that she looks for products (LPs) without this abomination. Her ideals and beliefs prevent the purchase of post riaa LPs. This is what I'm trying to learn.
Many of us must have similar ideals which determine what we buy and even how we shop, listen, or interact. I would not be interested in a tube system using B&W speakers and employing CDs as the main music source, but this doesn't mean that a system with that makeup cannot sound good, or that it's owner is some kind of mutant. These are just my prejudices, ideals, or beliefs.
What are yours??? |
I have seen a lot of people who suggest that a $10,000 system can sound as good as a $30,000. I have yet to see this actually happen. Too often statements like this are made, but they are never substantiated.
What would the $10,000 system consist of, and what $30,000 system are you taking about? Does equipment go down in quality as the price goes up? Are cheaper Revel speakers better sounding than the more expensive models. Do smaller and cheaper amps sound better than the next model up in the companies product line?
I am opposed to spending money for the sake of spending money, but every time I have bought a more expensive product it sounded better than the cheaper product it replaced. If it didn't sound better I would not have made the purchase!!!
What does all this mean. |
Onhwy61, Comparable in what respects? In the same way a boom box plays pretty much the same music as a cheap stereo?
I have never heard the two systems mentioned in the TAS article, but if the $75,000 system sounded even remotely similar to the $15,000 I would eat it!
How is it possible that two people who know this industry and what is available would be incapable of getting the right componants to put together a system that would not be drastically different from each other.
I understand if a person closed their eyes and randomly picked products that there would be no continuity to the system, but this is true at any price range. How could that system sound great? I think it would sound good, but it would not be great.
What are these "some systems" that you mention? I guess this whole discussion is meaningless without particulars!
I don't beleive that one person could put together two systems with a $60,000 price difference that would sound close to one another. If a moron went out with $75,000 while a true 'audiophile' went out with 15,000 it is possible that the systems might, possibly, maybe, not exhibit a huge difference in sound quality, but otherwise this is a foolish analogy |
A fact is a provable point. The point can be proved by anyone with right equipment. Facts and opinions are not interchangable. If a $30,000 system cannot be proven to be better than a $15,000 system it is not better!
I had a $15,000 system. I now own a system that retails for a little over $30,000. I would not willingly go back to the former system, because there were too many compromises. I don't think I am much smarter now than when I bought the previous system. I have always had to live within my means. So the compromises I made then, and continue (in some respects) to make now are not due to a lack of understanding as to a lack of funds.
I know without a doubt that if I had the money I would make certain changes, all of which would be significant improvements. These improvements would/will come at a significant cost too! These changes have been planned and prioritised so I know what I will be doing as opposed to jumping at the next good deal. If I could not hear an improvement comensurate to the cost I would not spend the money.
The differeence between a $75,000 system and a $7,500 system is like the difference between the back row of a concert and the third row. It's still the same concert, with the same music and musicians, but the quality of the presentation is extremely different. |
If a $75,000 system doesn't sound better than a $15,000 system the person who bought it is stupid, as are the people who designed and manufactured it.
Using this logic does that mean that a $75,000 car is not better than a $15,000, or a $75,000 house is not better than a $15,000 house. These statements are simply unreasonable.
If a $6,000 amp did not sound better than a $2,000 it would not sell! I had a $2,000 Aragon 8008st amp which I replaced with a $6,000 Krell FPB 200. Both amps are very close on paper. In my listening room there was no comparison. The Krell is better in EVERY respect. At a $4,000 price difference it should be. Why is it that some people here are so quick to deny that differences in sound quality exist?
The Krell was not better because it cost more, it cost more because it is better. The parts which went into the Krell were better than those in the Aragon. I am not suggesting that the Aragon is a bad amp. It isn't, it a very good amp. I have suggested it to many people over the last few years. The Krell is just better.
My $15,000 system sounded good, my $30,000 system sounds A LOT better, not just different.
Where is the cut off line between better and more expensive??? Is a $2000 integrated amp better than a $500 receiver? Is a $5000 speaker better than a $1,000 speaker? Were is the line? |
I flew into Houston a couple of months ago. The reason for the flight was a wedding in Nacogdoches. Since there is a significant distance between the two cities I arranged for a rental car. I have an American made motorcycle and an American made truck, but I don't particularly care for American cars. My wife drives a 2000 VW Passat. With this in mind i rented a Volvo S60.
Upon arrival at George Bush International I pushed and shoved my way to the rental counter. Sorry Grandma! It was one of those good news/bad news deals. They had no Volvo's. They did have, and agreed to rent for the same price, a Jaguar. I jumped at the prospect since it would be a good oppertunity to compare it to the Passat. Guess what, it got me all the way to Nacogdoches and back to Houston! What more could I want?
Oh yeah, how did it ride? It was much better than my Passat. More solid, smoother riding, better amenities, everything one would expect in a luxury car. This car cost about $30,000 More than my Passat! When I bought the Passat, I traded a Pontiac Grand Prix in on it. The difference between the Grand 'Piece o' Crap' and the Passat was as BIG as the difference between the Passat and the Jaguar. Was the Jaguar worth $30,000 more? Yes! Will I be buying one? NO!!! I can't afford it. BUT is still much better, not just different. |
If I ever have to rent a car in Denver, we'll go for a ride! |
I would lose the Sony in favor of a good TT first. Then I would buy a phono section and a good pre-amp.
I couldn't comment on a Lexus since I don't drive Japanese cars (good engineering, lousy materials, styles are ripoffs of German cars) but I have owned Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, and I've driven Jaguar. It's not just a different car, it's a better car. The issue is, how much are people willing to spend, or for what will they settle? Many people cannot justify spending $50,000 on a car. That doesn't mean the car is not worth the cost.
Just because a person cannot justify a $30,000 system doesn't mean the system is not a superior system. I think the reason many people put down systems more expensive than their own is that they don't have to justify their own compromises. If they delude themselves into thinking better equipment is only more expensive they don't have to worry that they aren't getting everything from the stereo that they should be getting.
What do I know!?! |
Onhwy61 says: If the difference between a $20,000 and a $30,000 system really was "huge", then the difference between a $7,500 and a $75,000 system must be "hyper-mega-bodacious-gargantuan".
This is the point I've been trying to make all along! I don't believe (based on experience) that the differences are subtle. I don't believe that the difference between third row seats and last row seat are subtle either.
I have friends who own $100,000+ systems who cannot stand to listen to systems like mine because of all the compromises involved. They are unwilling to give up what they get from thier own systems. Since I know some people will say "They must be rich, stupid, or deaf!" I will add that I have never learned more from anyone else in this hobby as I have from these people. They know more than I can ever hope to learn, and have been very helpful in putting together my system.
Not even the rich want to waste money for what they believe to be subtle differences. Since the nember of rich people frequenting this website is (I would guess) extremely small, I would say such arguements are without substance.
So again, the differnces are not subtle. |
I have no problem listening to my system because I like it very much, but people like TWL (are there more people like him???) probably would not like my system. That doesn't make him bad, or my system bad. Tom and I both enjoy music very much, but I think our priorities are a little different. I bet his system sounds great, but it's not the kind of thing I would put together.
Someone with a very good system has grown accustomed to certain things when listening to their system which mine does not do as well as theirs. Their lack of interest in listening to my system is no different than Onhwy61's lack of interest in spending an extended period of time listen to a Bose Acoustic Wave Machine rather than his own system. How many people who have built a nice home theater system would be interested in going back to 19" TV with a first generation VCR? At the time it was SOTA, now it's just old junk! |
Tom, you bring your bike up here and we'll go for a ride. I'll even buy the beer or whatever else you want. I'll even throw a prime rib on the grill. That sounds like a good day to me!
What I meant with my comments was that your focus is very different than mine. I didn't intend to suggest your likes were so narrow that you would find my system abhorant, just that the things you focused on were not the same priorities as mine and for that reason you would not enjoy mine as you do your own.
Because you weighed in just prior to this comment I included your name in the comments so you would feel at home:). I was thinking more of some other people who have much better systems than both of us.
In reality all of us have to live within our limitations. In cases like mine they just show up earlier. I still maintain that A good expensive system sounds better than a good mid priced system. |
I prefer to use my iron maiden. It's not comfortable till you get use to the spikes, but wow does it sound good!!! |
Again I ask the question: If cheaper sounds better than why don't you have a $100 system. The notion that lesser quality parts and materials will sound better than better parts/material (and of course design) is plainly foolish.
Those who use the, I listened to this 30,000 speaker system in the store and it sounded like #$%* are deluding themselves. Speakers were not made to listen to on a showroom floor. There is not a worse place to audition anything! Did the Celestions (Which I have owned) cost less to produce than the bigger speaker? The cost of production plays a large part in the end price of a speaker! I do not consider this audition to be a valid experience. The enviroment was far too compromised. That doesn't mean the Celestions were not better speakers, although I doubt they were. It means the listening room was not set up to do any serious listening.
Alright, you convinced me! I'm going to go and sell all my gear and buy something cheaper because it will sound better than what I own now! |
Elizabeth, I obviously did misunderstand your comments about the RIAA curve and LP purchases. Sorry! I'm not sure anymore where I got the idea, perhaps I'm more delusional than I thought.
Someday I'm gonna pull my Victory along-side Tom's BMW and listen to those Lothar's. I hope he's not home when I do it. I don't want to get shot!!!
It is not my intention to say that there are no good "budget" products out there, but as TWL clarified, as a generalization better gear costs more. I'm still not sure that my system sounds better than TWL's though.
Everybody likes different gear and different sound, that doesn't make the other person wrong (unless of course, they disagree with me). :^)
The last question Elizabeth asks though is a very improtant one, but maybe not one to be dealt with on AudiogoN! |
