Many moons ago I upgraded the 2ce to the 3a ( both non signatures) and I preferred the smaller 2ce. I just never enjoyed the 3a and sold them after about a year. If you like the 2c's I think the signatures would be a better choice! |
Thanks for the input. what didn't you like about the 3a sound compared to the model 2? |
If I were to do it again. I would just buy a pair of used Quatro's, but being less than affluent, I would suggest buying a pair of used 2wq subs for your 2c's. That would give you 80% of a 3a sig. (Also, the 3a sig Sound Anchors stick out and make positioning difficult in cramped areas).
When money comes available, you can do what I did, buy a pair of Treo's and keep the 2wq's. That way you will get 90% of a Quatro. If you can find a pair of Treo CT-even better.
Vandersteen is coming out with a new sub system, so prices of the 2wq's will probably be coming down. In any case, the 2wq's are no slouch and integrate seamlessly.
B |
I just could not get them sounding good in my listening room. I needed to tilt them almost at a 70 degree angle to get some decent bass. They were very placement critical compared to the smaller 2c’s. But you might not have this problem in your room. But I sure did! |
In the past few months I have never seen a 2wq, I will be interested to see what the price is on those once they trickle in from the folks who upgrade to the SUB 3. Right now I see a couple abused regular 2Ws for $500. But intuition tells me to stay away from those. |
I just could not get them sounding good in my listening room. I needed to tilt them almost at a 70 degree angle to get some decent bass. They were very placement critical compared to the smaller 2c’s. But you might not have this problem in your room. But I sure did!
I would really love to demo to get a good comparison, unfortunately there isn't a dealer with a Vandersteen set-up in Oregon (closest one is in Tacoma!). To be fair, we do have a Vandersteen dealer, but they only order them in, you can actually listen to them at their shop. |
If I were to do it again. I would just buy a pair of used Quatro’s, but being less than affluent, I would suggest buying a pair of used 2wq subs for your 2c’s. That would give you 80% of a 3a sig. (Also, the 3a sig Sound Anchors stick out and make positioning difficult in cramped areas).
When money comes available, you can do what I did, buy a pair of Treo’s and keep the 2wq’s. That way you will get 90% of a Quatro. If you can find a pair of Treo CT-even better.
Vandersteen is coming out with a new sub system, so prices of the 2wq’s will probably be coming down. In any case, the 2wq’s are no slouch and integrate seamlessly.
Just so I understand this correctly, you think that the 2C’s with qty 2 2wq ’s only get you 80% of the 3a? The 3a doesn’t have this good of bass does it? |
Let’s think for a minute .
In order to take full advantage of the bigger speaker one would need to optimize with better electronics to climb to an obviously better level then add in decent AQ cables no band aids and a normal size room to breath and the 3A sigs can sing easily outperforming most other types
The newer Treo"CTs has a better transition and placement advantage over both speakers the latest 2 Sig 2 is still
one of the best values in speaker land
JohnnyR
|
You might consider moving to a powered speaker instead of a passive design. The Treo, I understand, is a passive version of the Quatro and is still pretty pricey.
If you are sold on Vandersteen speakers, I can totally understand, they are a great product. As an alternative Golden Ear Tech speakers like the Triton ! and Triton 1 Reference offer great sound at a more affordable price, for me anyway. Have a great day. |
Let’s think for a minute .
In order to take full advantage of the bigger speaker one would need to optimize with better electronics to climb to an obviously better level then add in decent AQ cables no band aids and a normal size room to breath and the 3A sigs can sing easily outperforming most other types
The newer Treo"CTs has a better transition and placement advantage over both speakers the latest 2 Sig 2 is still
one of the best values in speaker land
JohnnyR
Thanks for the feedback Johnny! So, it seems a likely reason is that more models 3's are for sale is that since they are more picky towards the room and supporting hardware, folks are left feeling underwhelmed since they don't take anything else into account? Since I am more of a budget audiophile myself, I wonder it if would be safe to assume that the model 3's could possibly sound worse than my model 2c's if I just swapped them out, while not upgrading any other component? If this is the case, I would probably opt to get the 2ce sig IIs since they are less picky. My upgrade path with likely be this, then (likely much time will go by between steps): 1.)buy a used 2wq 2.)buy a second 2wq 3.)buy used (possibly new) 2ce sig IIs 4.)upgrade supporting electronics |
You might consider moving to a powered speaker instead of a passive design. The Treo, I understand, is a passive version of the Quatro and is still pretty pricey.
If you are sold on Vandersteen speakers, I can totally understand, they are a great product. As an alternative Golden Ear Tech speakers like the Triton ! and Triton 1 Reference offer great sound at a more affordable price, for me anyway. Have a great day.
Thanks for your feedback. Yes, I am very much a believer in Vandersteen. I have heard all sorts of speakers at various shops in the Northwest and in my ears, nothing comes close to the overall musicality these put forth. It's tough to put your finder on the magic of them. They just sound lush. |
when they're sold, you won't see them that much. |
when they're sold, you won't see them that much.
I assume you are talking about the 2wq? Yes, I am a bit afraid of this. If I can't get a hold of a good used one, I guess I could start working a second job during the graveyard shift and save up for a SUB 3. |
LOL @czarivey !!! Absolutely true! You only see them when they are for sale ;)... |
There is a pair of Vandersteen Treo Ct's here on Audiogon. by TMR. They look in pretty good shape but the walnut veneers have some washed out discolorations on them. I see this as a defect in the veneer and surprised Vandersteen let those out of the factory without considering them as "B" stock. I worked in a furniture factory a long time ago. This type of discoloration is extremely hard to cover with stain, if not outright impossible. Although some people might like the color contrast and think it looks nice. I am not one of those people.IMO. |
I will defer to Johnny (audioconnection), as he knows these speakers inside out. True, the 3a sigs will need more power than the 2's, but if powered properly, will give you more bass than the 2's.
I had the 3a sigs with a pair of 2w subs, and it was very good. I now have the Treo's with 2wq subs and have no intention of changing anything for quite a while.
@bstat, Your upgrade path seems sound (pun intended). Adding the subs should flesh out the music, and like I said, they can be used with the Treo's to great effect should you wish to upgrade beyond the 2ce sigs.
@mr_m ,
TMR pics always look washed out, to me. I would contact them to see if they really are bleached out.
B |
I agree with Bob. I know for a fact that the veneering that is done at Vandersteen is top notch. I too build furniture for fun with a buddy (I have MS and can't pick up large boards or use power equipment some of the time so he keeps me honest and safe) and have spoken with them a few times about finishes. I personally went an upgraded Audi Havana Black as many know (perfect finish when I used a magnifying glass). Call first.
As for what to get, that's not easy. Read and reread Johnny's post. He knows Vandersteen's as well as anyone else's.
As for a powered speaker, I love them. That's why I went with the Quatro CT. It's killer when setting up compared to adding subs, but their new Sub 3 will be so easy to set up wiht the built in EQ.
2's or 3's???? Golden Ear as someone posted? The Golden Ear will be much brighter than any of the Steen's IMHO. That's not a bad thing, it's just not quite as tonally accurate, but it's a fun speaker and a good choice. I personally feel that in the range you are in, The 2's are the best value new...That's new price. Who knows if you can get a recent model used as very few come up and Vandersteen owners most often listen to their ears and buy them and don't worry about what the latest positive review says about speaker of the month club. Not a knock on any other speakers, just the publications, lol....
You have to figure out what's important. IF you can fit the 3's in the room, then it's a no brainer. There is a reason Richard makes it....IT'S BETTER....I personally feel that it's a lot better. It's easier to integrate them into a room, that it will be to integrate the subs and a 2 IMHO.
let use know what you are doing. |
I have bought 5 or six things from TMR, always matched the description - agree the photos look a bit odd, the fronts show some “ sap wood” andwith the book match look to me interesting. A son of a gunsmith, cabinet maker, log salvor and sometime bandmill operator, I find wild sapwood, figure, spalt, knots, flame, curl, ambrosia beetle tracks interesting, not B grade
i get others may not share that, I think there are some rub marks and flask makes them worse in photo, I serious doubt they lady the factory with rub marks, a carefully read of the TMR ad might be in order....
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Flask makes photos better, flash not so much
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A giant killer upgrade path you are missing is 5a
zebrawood or wild Rosewood are my faves and you get a much better sub.....
|
Look guys, I said some people might like that look in the veneer. I personally, don't. Remember I have Vandersteen Treo Ct's too! And I love them. I have the mahogany stained walnut, and If my pair would have come to the dealer and looked like that pair, I would have rejected them. I have talked to some speaker manufacturers, one of whom I visited and talked to the designer, and that type of veneer would be a "no go." Please remember, this is just my opinion as to how I feel about it.
Ctsooner. As much as I love Vandersteen, the veneers are not always top notch. I have seen some pairs with mis-matched grain and even a space between veneer pieces whereas you could see the MDF underneath (Pair of 5a's at a dealer). And also, If you can believe it, some veneer waivering meaning it had peaks and dips on the side of a speaker you could easily see. Overall, yes, Vandersteen does an excellent job with it's finishes. Near Perfect? No....And please don't tell me that wood is never perfect. I get and understand that fact but I think we can all spot less than ideal workmanship. |
A giant killer upgrade path you are missing is 5a Oh man, that would be my ultimate upgrade. I do see these on the site every once in a while for 6-7K, but don’t know if I’ll ever be in a position to buy this much speaker all at once. If I could there would be no hesitation. But, yes, that would be #5 on my list (possibly #4 before the upgraded electronics) |
Mr_m
i agree, two issues
taste and I can say my Dad and I were polar opposites on wood, I have Americana sapwood wild cherry dining table that drove him insane... yet he love flame and Curley Maple in a flintlock.... go figure
knowing RV as I think I do, I am sure he would want to know about quality escapes, wood or otherwise.
he is out of email range for a bit ( I believe Munich show ) but factory open - I will let Jaclyn know
i hope I don’t sound defensive
i fixed my share of issues on $200 M product, perfection eludes all but God
yet we strive for it !!!
finally mr_m let’s inspect my veneer together over a nice red and some tunes !!!
|
tomic601,
I guess I got too serious here, and probably took myself too seriously. For that I apologize. I can see I got too defensive. I truly love this hobby and I know guys like you, Ctsooner, Bob, etc...etc...love it too. I would love to come over to your place to share some red and tunes in the near future. Life, and Vandersteen is good!!!!
Cheers,
Tim |
5a is giant itself. Big heavy and very slow. Won't work in small rooms. You need at least 50 people auditorium sized space. In ordinary sized listening room 3a or quattros will dom.
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@mr_m ,
If you are in the NY/NJ area, perhaps we can meet at Johnny's place this summer. I am getting a small group together when things slow down for me.
@czarivey ,
Though I wouldn't characterize the 5a's as slow, they are massive and I like to my speakers look nice-visually-in a room, so I would have to agree.
FWIW, when I was streaming music a month ago, I didn't realize that I had the volume up on the system downstairs( I am streaming to Bluesound Nodes in different parts of the house).
Those Treo's can certainly put out a significant volume of music. When I walked downstairs and heard them, I was set aback. It sounded like live music.
B
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Bob,
That would be a great trip. Never been out East. I live near Phoenix Az. But would love to get near your area. That would be great to meet you, and to go to Audioconnection. Thanks for the offer!
Cheers,
Tim |
Great posts guys. You all make sense, because we all have our own priorities etc... I can vouch for Tomic and Richard wanting to know about any problems, but what makes it worse is that you said I was at a dealer. I've personally never sen anyone's speakers have such a problem that you can see the MDF. I have only used veneer a few times for box work. Nothing as large as a speaker cabinet.
I too love to work with sap wood on certain types. Walnut is great as can be cherry. Some of the exotics I get have some cool sap wood.
I work mostly with highly figured quarter sawn white oak as I make mostly Arts and Crafts furniture with a buddy. Have MS and can't carry boards and Al sees when I can't do certain things, lol.
Bob, let me know and I'll see if I can get a ride down....would be fun. Won't be able to go anywhere for a few weeks as I recover from my surgery last week. |
finally dragged my carcass “ home “ to Seattle....
have the 7’s fired up with some 91 point Costco rot-gut red from Portugal .....
Sol Gabetta - Prayer sounding good....the Ref5 se dial says 38, mid hall is where I put my seat, maybe just a whisker forward of that.....
now on a more serious note, we all owe our various manufacturers honest, frank feedback on quality issues - the customer who walks away silent is the most dangerous to health of any business. Lets help improve those great companies creating jobs and great products.
all good
Jim |
5a is giant itself. Big heavy and very slow. Won't work in small rooms. You need at least 50 people auditorium sized space. In ordinary sized listening room 3a or quattros will dom . Well, my home is an open floor plan with the great room kitchen and dining room is all one room and on top of that there is a giant hallway leading to various parts of the house, so, I can't even get a good figure on room dimensions. Perhaps the 5a's might be OK in my situation? Plus, the speakers themselves aren't that much taller than the model 2's correct? (I know the 5a would be quite a bit deeper, however) |
While Vandersteens can be finicky to setup, the payoff is great for both Model 2C and 3A. I have owned both, non-sig models, and still have the 3A’s. Mine started off as 3’s and the original owner I bought them from, sent back to Vandersteen at some point for the "A" update, which means they don’t need any crossover work at this time. I’d say for a grand, I can’t buy a better speaker. A different speaker, yes, but for most of my music, I love the way Vandersteen’s sound.
I will say that I didn’t love my 2C’s until I went mono bridge. I won’t turn back now. The control having an amp drive each speaker is critical IMHO to getting the most out of them, and as far as bass, there is no need for a sub. My system has not changed going from the 2C to 3A and while I think the 2C was perfectly fine, I had to try out the 3A when they popped up for sale at a price I could afford. I have the Sound Anchors, which one poster mentioned get in the way of proper positioning. I disagree. You never want these speakers closer to a wall than what the stand will allow. Once you get used to maneuvering the speakers on the cones it’s pretty easy. I like the stands and wouldn’t use with the stock stands, which I have in a closet.
I don’t have the kind of system of the typical Audiogon member. I have what I can afford, which took me years to build up to. My main source is all Sansui Definition Series (TU-9900, CA-2000, BA-3000), but I drive the Vandersteens with two Parasound HCA-1500 (630 wpc mono, 8 ohm). Because they are THX certified, I get clean sound. When I was using just one, the speakers were ok, but not great.
Room size and shape is a big thing. In your open space the 3’s may be better simply from a size factor. My space is an 11 x 13 room with vaulted 11’ ceiling and open closet at the opposite end which gives me another 2.5’ of depth, as it’s most of the width of the room. I have my system on the short width (11’) which is all I can do since my office is in the room. We just moved from a house where I had a smaller room ... and I still got great sound out of the 3A’s ... however, now, I have bare walls, vaulted ceiling and the need for building acoustic diffusers on the back wall between the speakers and one side wall. The other wall is a large window with cloth blind. My environment is different than yours, and I’m guessing other posters have enough differences in system and space where it’s possible none of our situations match yours.
bstatmeister, if you are around central Oregon, you can check mine out. |
I have been in touch once in awhile with Richard Vandersteen and he is quite approachable (although he was a tad stand-offish when he thought I had blown a mid range driver in my 4As due to abuse until I explained it was a power amp failure). Why don't you contact him or look at their question board and see what he thinks. Basically you want the best sound for a given price point. I would think that the 3A Sigs might be the sweet spot, but he might tell you that one of the other models were his recommendation, even though you wouldn't be buying new and benefitting his company. |
KenWood - I may have to hit you up on that sometime, although I am rarely in the Bend area. Thanks for the invite! Do you have a turntable? I could bring some Daft Punk and a couple MoFi LPs |
even though you wouldn't be buying new and benefitting his company.
Trust me, I want to benefit his company in anyway possible. This man really deserves it. We want Richard Vandersteen in business a loooooong time. I may be willing to save up and fork over an extra grand or 2 just for this point. Now to convince the wife... |
really IMO just about any speaker does well in a real and irregular room, breaks up nodes, etc...
i had both 3A-Sig, then 5a and now 7 in a combo living room with wide entry into a shared dining space which is open to kitchen, valulted ceiling is 16’ plus in places, basic listening room is 16’ x 16’
i do have a 12’ window to contend with on the left channel first reflection point - strategic placent of a high back chair helps - the bottom line is great sound with 3a and up
i think you should go see Victor and Bob in Tacoma ...they have a Bardo, take the Daft Punk
i am another 30 minutes North, welcome to visit if I am around....
have fun |
I have three turntables .... bring it on!
I agree with tomic in that there really is no reason not to enjoy most speakers (if they are good) in any room. I think some speakers get "moved on" prematurely, without spending the necessary time to test placements. It can be frustrating, but rewarding.
Part of my problem is of my own making. I have two sets of speakers. The second set, going through a crossover update are Miller & Kreisel S-1B satellites that give me another musical option. The Vandies are great for everything, and honestly, if such a speaker exists, I can't afford it. But my Sansui BA-3000 is fully restored and took over a year. I'm not letting it go, but it doesn't give me the sound two Parasound amps give me, so the M&K speakers are the only way I can fit cool vintage speakers into my room without causing problems. That said, I have found one good placement of my 3A's using the Third's placement which brings them out into the room in a way, I won't be able to move the S-1B's around. |
@bstat,
I think Mr. V. and dealers like John Rutan understand that not all of us can afford to buy new.
When I had some questions and called Vandersteen, Mr. V. called back the next day to offer guidance. He even called back the following day to see if I had rectified the problem- All this, knowing I had bought my speakers used.
And, Johnny has provided so much good info, as well, without any sales pitch.
A very reputable company with equally reputable distributors.
B |
There's not a lot of audio pioneers like that. It's a testament for his love of what he does, and the fact he cares about his customers getting enjoyment out of his efforts.
I have to say the same for Richard Schram of Parasound. I have a pair of his older amps, but he is good about responding to questions I have had in the past. I could mention Ken Kreisel as well ... |
Yes, the older guys were like that for the most part. Mark Levinson couldn't do that since he never designed anything. Tom C did all of that and Mark marketed and sold the stuff, lol. |
