Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?

At this point in time, the 927 is like Captain Ahab’s white whale. The one you might find may not bear all the sonic virtues of the one you are seeking, and it might bankrupt you nevertheless (not quite as bad as what happened to Ahab, I admit).

950 is a poor TT.

 There are many versions of 927 depending on the restore. Of 4 I heard only 1 done by the Dutch restorer was good and they go for 50k +. They are great for jazz and rock and sound big and bold with good groove, but don’t have the nuance for classical similar to modern belts. This can be addressed to a large extent by having a cartridge like the Dava field coil which

Update: I have now heard the EMT 950 and 927 in the same room (another friend bought it). Both using the TSD-15 cartridge and internal phono stages. The 927 is clearly superior. It sounds bigger, more fluid, more explosive. 950 has the EMT presentation of big bold sound but ultimately sounds a bit dry (like every DD)

So 927 remains unbeaten

@lewm the system in which we compared the 927, Feickert and Nantais Lencowe used an EMT JPA66 Mk2 phono. It was not the 927 internal phono. So we had a common ground to compare the the three TT

950 is owned by 2 of my other buddies. They don't have a 927. But both of them aspire to have one some day. The 950 is being used with internal phono.

Sonically, 950 is the best DD I have heard. No one i know prefers a 950 over 927. Not even in the same ball park. As I said, 927 feels like there is nothing more to ask for.

That must have been fun. You mention that the internal phono stage of the EMT927 was used.  Was it also used with the other 3-4 TTs in the shoot-out?  It is unusual that you and your friends were nearly as enthusiastic about the 950 as you were about the 927.  Most EMT aficionados who love the 927 don't love the 950 or any other DD TT so much.  But this means absolutely nothing.  The 950 is "in reach" of most well heeled audiophiles, whereas a really well restored 927 is almost in oligarch territory now. Two I found on line are well over $20,000.  That matters when one is doing comparisons.  I am not a big fan of the speakers you mention, but they certainly are not terrible.

@rauliruegas I will answer all your question. But your questions have an underlying tone of disrespect if things doesnt match your beliefs. Believe me there are many ears better than yours and mine, only if we have an open mind to accept other's experiences, we stand to gain something.

Anyway here are some details from my memory.

The 927, Nantais Lenco and Feickert Firebird were placed on the same BOX Furniture rack. 927 had 2 tonearms, 997 and Acoustic Systems Axiom. Cartridge were a combination of TSD-15, JSD Platinum & Phasemation PP-2000. The Axiom was swapped between 927, Nantais Lenco & Feickert and we also swapped the EMT and Phasemation carts various times to get the feel. The phasemation and EMT ultimately are not very different in terms of tone but phasemation seems to make things more refined and hifi, more pin-point. EMT carts are a little more flamboyant and raw, more studio like.

When I had the Technics SP10-Mk2, Mk3, Nantais Reference Lenco and Loricraft Garrard 301, the tonearm was a 47 Labs RS-A1 with Audio Technica ART-9, rack was a Hutter Rack from Austria. Later I also had EMT HSD-006 cartridge to replace the ART-9

@lewm 2 of my close buddies own EMT 950. One of them infact has all the EMT models, TD124, SP10 Mk2, Garrard 401 in the same setup.

The tonearm and cart on the 950 is a EMT 929 + TSD 15 SFL on both my friends systems. Phonostage is internal with matching SUT. One of them uses JBL 4343 and the other uses 4 way Altec horn system

@lewm  : the important issue in that context with the 927/950 pani opinion in his comparisons against other TTs still is the same: listened he all those TTs with the same tonearm//LP tracks/even SPL and if all those TTs were " seated " in a similar platfform?

@pani  , does not yet gives the answers even that two of us already asked.

I don't know for you but with out those critical comparison information seems to me that his opinios lost credibility because does " facts " in the comparison only he and his friend knows.

Don't you think?

R.

Pani, where and in what context were you able to audition a 950?

We can call a Technics anything. It is a good DD. But it is not a end of the story sound. An EMT 950 is totally another level, a proper end of the story DD. 927 is a final TT for the most discerning ears with unlimited resources. Bringing in Technics to this discussion is like bringing in a 3 way floorstander in the party of 5 way full range horn speakers.

The Technics like is a Porch 911 and your heavy weigths units that several of you are in love with are like a Linconl Capri or a Bodeville or Cadillac De Ville.

Wrong, the Technics is a lot more reliable than a Porsche 911 and requires far less maintenance.

I don't buy hifi on looks, or theory, I buy based on listening.

I've had the SP10mk3 in the house - got offered one for free from the widow of an old friend. Passed it on. Nice deck but only 2nd place in this house. Simply doesn't have the clarity that my reference has.

Dear friends @dover  : " the Technics as a toy in comparison to the others..."

As you and from over 40 years ago japanese audiophiles have a fascination for heavy weigth TT units as more heavy thde better and normally all those heavy items are BD designs. Your unit as the American Sound are ones of the heavy ones and don't forget the today TechDas/Micro Seiki top of the line: heavy gold and silver everywhere. As I said a fascination for the " eyes " and even in rest position any one can say when looking at: Wow  and stupid wow because heavy mass in rest is ok but heavy mass on play develops internal vibrations/resonances as any body in motion it does not matters how heavy it's.

Other significant issue is that japanese are more or less accustomed to tubes electronics, exactly like you, and with tubes every thing can goes " wrong ".

Yes, the vintage DD unit as Technics looks only looks as toy against those dinosaurs.

The Technics like is a Porch 911 and your heavy weigths units that several of you are in love with are like a Linconl Capri or a Bodeville or Cadillac De Ville.

I don't like tubes and certainly dinosaurus and Boneville cars.

Nothing wrong with what you  all like, it's your privilege as mine.

R.

@lewm : " were you using the same tonearm and cartridge in all cases, or even in some cases? "

That same question was already posted and till now he does not gives an answer. Well it’s his privilege answer or not but with out that answer his evaluation means almost " nothing ".

@dover  carmelli is a seller/ manufacturer and totally biased, only what he has on sale works as no other items.

R.

Pani, Which version of "Nantais Lenco" do you own?  I used to own one, too, and I used to follow Jean's meanderings on various websites.  He was or is constantly upgrading his ideas on how to improve the base table, so his work has a temporal quality to its quality. Mine was in a massive plywood plinth (I'd guess 50 to 75 lbs total weight) with the OEM Lenco metal chassis bolted directly into the plywood to dampen it.  Then I entered my "slate phase", in the early 2000s, and this led to my selling the Nantais Lenco.  I found an NOS Lenco and harvested only its motor, idler wheel, and platter.  I had a slate plinth cut for me and I mounted the motor on a PTP top plate, made by Peter Reinders, who is also a boon to Lenco-lovers.  The PTP is bolted firmly to the slate surface. I purchased a huge bearing from a guy in England, and I had the platter spray painted with a dampening paint, plus I took a cue from Win Tinnon and further dampened the platter with O-rings straddling the circumference,.  My slate slab weighs about 65 lbs. I did not try to devise a removable tonearm mount, so I use only surface mounted tonearms on the Lenco, specifically a Dynavector DV505.  The piece de la resistance was the addition of a Phoenix Engineering motor controller and Roadrunner.  I am not one to make definitive statements about one TT being better than another of my TTs, but this Lenco competes in every way with anything else I own.

I apologize for the question, because it is an obvious one, but in your comparisons among the tables you mention, were you using the same tonearm and cartridge in all cases, or even in some cases?  Thanks.

@pani 

Yes I plan to later this year - I'm in the process of moving.

Very very interesting @dover , a video with the TT playing would be lovely :-)

@pani

I pretty much agree with your descriptions of the sound of the TT’s.

As far as the Final goes, the original, which I have, was made using a super expensive material called superplastic zinc alloy ( SPZ ). This material was developed in Japan in the 1970’s for earthquake proofing buildings - it is a metal like material that has superplasticity at room temperature and any vibration between 10hz and 100hz is absorbed and dissipated by grain sliding within the material molecular structure - in other words vibrations at these frequencies disappear. The material is no longer available, it was too expensive to produce.You can hear the benefit - this turntable has the least smearing of notes of any TT that I have heard.

Here’s the family history I posted on youtube

The second generation ( silver chassis ) has a lesser bearing and aluminium chassis instead of the SPZ. The Kondo is better than the second generation but not as good as the original. On my VTT1 ( 2nd TT in the video with the FR64S attached ) the motor is driven off of a separate power amplifier that is driven off the sine/cosine wave generator sitting next to the motor.

@lewm couple of things to clarify first.

1. The 927 is owned by my cousin and there we also compared it to Nantais Reference Lenco and Dr.Feickert Firebird. There was no DD in that room.

2. I had in my room, Technics SP10Mk2, Mk3, Nantais Reference Lenco & Loricraft Garrard 301 side by side for some time. Recently I had a EMT 938 (DD) in my room for a month.

3. I don’t like DDs. I am neutral towards EMT brand (unlilke fanboys). But in this hobby I always keep an open and honest mind to accept what is good about even things I hate.

So, a quick recap of what I said earlier. The Sp10 Mk2 is not in the same league as any of the other TTs in this discussion, simply because it doesnt have the macro dynamic range of others. It sounds small. The SP10 Mk3 approaches the idlers in dynamics and overall grandeur, has more resolution than Lenco and Garrard but sounds drier. I chose Nantais Lenco as the best of the lot. Quieter and more resolved than Garrard, More fluid, and approaches resolution of good DDs. The 938 which I heard recently is at SP10 Mk3 level, but less dry. If I have to choose a DD among all these, it will be 938.

Coming back to 927. In my cousin's room, it made the Lenco and Feickert sound ordinary, basic, nice but portable players. It had much more resolution than the $10k Feickert, much better micro dynamics than any TT under 30k I have till this date. Macro dynamics is final level, you cannot expect anything more. It live size, full range sound, like the best horn speakers give you. Tone is perfect, no coloration, PRAT is exact, no distortion, soundstage width and depth is panoromic. These things are not easy to explain. One may think many TTs do it. But when you hear it all put together with the most natural high resolution balance, you know it is the END.

BTW, I am using Nantais Lenco as my primary TT.

@dover I had heard about Final Audio TT but didnt know Kondo Ginga is a copy. Cheap copy? I can’t say. There was nothing cheap about it. It was the only other TT apart from 927 for which I felt I should earn more. Unfortunately Kondo made only 30 of them because the cost of production was too high and its $120k price tag, they didnt have the sales team to move it. And what Karmeli said about Sp10Mk3 compared to this other TTs is very similar to what I am trying to say indirectly.

For all you posters discussing turntable speed accuracy It is not possible to measure wow & flutter using a test record.

If you use a rotary function generator to measure the turntable performance directly off the platter, the results will be more accurate than any test record.

For an explanation from someone who actually has a degree in physics and acoustical engineering - Bruce Thigpen of Eminent Technology.

Here is Bruces explanation from his Eminent Technology website.

Bruce has many patents and inventions including his unique air bearing tonearm, rotary subwoofer, vacuum platter as implenmented by SOTA, and many others.

Bruce Thigpen -

Reviewers have incorrectly attributed wow and flutter to the turntable. Since the advent of the belt drive turntable, wow and flutter has been purely a function of tonearm geometry, the phono cartridge compliance with the elastomeric damping, and surface irregularities in the LP. In our own lab we have measured many high quality turntables using a rotary function generator directly connected to the platters of the turntables.

The measured results are usually an order of magnitude better than the results using a tonearm and test record (conventional wow and flutter method). Further proof exists if you take two tonearms, one straight line and one pivoted and mount them both on the same turntable. The straight line tonearm will give a wow and flutter reading with the same cartridge/test record of about 2/3 to 1⁄2that of the pivoted arm (.03% < .07% to .05%). This is because the straight line tonearm has a geometry advantage and lateral motion does not result in stylus longitudinal motion along the groove of the record.

Another proof is to take two different cartridges, one high compliance and one low compliance, and take measurements with both using the same turntable and tonearm. The reading of wow and flutter will be different. All wow and flutter readings are higher than the rotational consistency of the turntable.

The 927 is just hilariously ahead of all this. Way way way more resolution and dynamics. It is a proper full range, accurate, limitless sound. I don’t know which TT can better it, yet. May be a Kondo Ginga? 

@pani 

As a matter of interest the Kondo Ginga is a cheap copy of the Final Audio VTT1 built in the 70's which has been my reference TT for the past 30+ years. As you have found with the Technics SP10mk3 vs the 927, the Final is in another league.

Does not mean that DD is bad, it just means the the Final is exceptional.

David Karmeli has the EMT 927, along with American Sound AS2000, Micro Seiki 8000's, Goldmund Reference and SP10mk3. He describes the Technics as a toy in comparison to the others.

We agree, Raul. That is what I was trying to say.  There is basically "nothing new under the sun" when it comes to turntables, although our ideas about what constitutes optimal design and construction have evolved or become more sophisticated over decades, as the acceptable cost for audio systems has expanded and as there has been more time for trial and error experiments.  For one example, the unipivot was once a revolutionary idea in tonearm design. Not today.

@lewm : Maybe I can't explain very well but:

" When does a turntable, tonearm, or cartridge cross the time line between "modern" and "vintage"?  "

The main premise I posted does not changed today so with foundation of that premise that line just doesnot exist.

R.

Pani, Can you try to put into words what you heard from the 927 that was so superior to any of the other TTs with which you compared it?  You seem at one go to be saying that the 927 "beat" the Technics and a Lenco but that those are turntables you don't particularly like.  (I am not sure what you prefer these days.) Nor would anyone say that those are TTs of the very highest most esoteric rank, with which one would want to compare the 927 in order to confer the title of "world's best".

If my post makes no "sense", read it again. Or if you want to query me, please ask a specific question about my post; I will be happy to try to respond.

Now you ask me what do I think is the "perfect" TT, which was not the central subject of my post. My opinion is there is no perfect TT, today or any day. There are many very good TTs, good enough to make this argument moot. Mike Lavigne has a wider and deeper experience of the most expensive TTs ever sold both now and in the past than any of us peons, and even he is loathe to say which is "best" let alone "perfect" (your word). I think it’s a bad question, to begin with.

Thuchan, who started this thread 11 pages ago, is a wealthy man. He also resides in close proximity to the best EMT repair facility in the world, probably with access to many OEM parts that the rest of us could not acquire, even if we owned a 927 and had the money for a cost no object restoration. If the 927 is capable of outperforming every other TT, in a manner that would convince all of us, then I can imagine that Thuchan owns that 927, just because of his resources. I can’t sit where I am and say that his 927 does not "outperform" anything I ever heard; I haven’t even ever heard ANY 927, let alone a perfected one. But I feel no jealousy or resentment; I am happy for Thuchan if his 927 is as good as he thinks it is.  Meantime, I am happy with what I have and don't feel driven to replace what I own.

Dear @lewm  : What's the function of a TT? spinsaccurately the LP to listen it. From this premise vintage and today units are the same. Your post to mijo makes no sense to me but now please let all of us to know what is your perfect TT today against today units or vintage ones including the 927. Which main differences for the better?

R. 

Dear @pani  :  I'm sure that's that is what you like it but sorry due that with that " terrible " all tube phono stage you can't be aware of the " errors "  true quality performance of any TT. Yes, I listened that EMT several times.

Now the 927 was designed with the full advise of Broadcasting Technique Institute to EMT and was designed for transcription recordings ( 16" ) used in those old times and as other broadcasting TT designs was builded to run 24/7/365.

I don't know if you listened with the same tonearm/cartridge and if was with the original EMT tonearm then I really question seriously your gradation of those TTs. because the original EMT is way resonant tonearm.

R.

And yea i have personally owned the Technics SP-10 MK2 and Mk3. Good but, please! It is not even close to 927. The Mk3 is in the league of a nicely done Lenco but with higher resolution and a drier sound. Mk2, one step below. The humble EMT 938 beats Mk2 easily and approaches the Mk3 dangerously close. Infact for all those who love DD, you owe it to yourself to get a fully serviced 938 and see if the Technics is still in your rear view mirror.

By the way, i don’t like DD and I am not a EMT guy but i have had all these TTs in my own system.

My first cousin who stays in the same city as me had a EMT 927, Jean Nantais Reference Lenco Mk2 and Dr.Feickert Firebird at the same time.

Phonostage: EMT JPA66 Mk2

Speakers: ATC SCM 100ASL active

Cartridges: EMT JSD Platinum, Phasemation PP-2000

On this setup, the Lenco is clearly superior to Feickert Firebird. Equal in resolution, and better in terms of dynamics and pitch stability, and more life to music. And the Feickert is a really good $10k turntable. A very well engineered and good sounding unit. I will highly recommend it to anyone considering a modern TT under 10k. Just don’t tell me idler can’t sound tops.

The 927 is just hilariously ahead of all this. Way way way more resolution and dynamics. It is a proper full range, accurate, limitless sound. I don’t know which TT can better it, yet. May be a Kondo Ginga? Cousin has just bought a Micro Seki SX-8000. Lets see if that can measure up to the 927.

May have posted this one earlier 

 Good Listening 

Peter

When does a turntable, tonearm, or cartridge cross the time line between "modern" and "vintage"? Mijostyn’s beloved Cosmos turntable is basically the same as a Star Sapphire sold by SOTA in the late 1980s, and by his own admission, SOTA copied the AR XA (mid-1960s) in its essence. I would not deny that the Cosmos is improved over its ancestral TTs, but so too are "vintage" idler and direct-drive turntables that most of us are using in the here and now, in the sense that most of us using "vintage" designs have added new and better plinths, bearing assemblies, motor control systems, etc. The Eclipse system on the Cosmos or optional on any other "modern" SOTA turntable is identical in concept and operation to the Phoenix Engineering speed controller I use on my Lenco (which apparently rumbles despite a massive upgraded bearing and a heavily damped platter but I can’t hear it because my woofers are not 15 inches in diameter times two per channel, and I don’t boost the bass response by 10 or more db, as does Mijostyn). Methinks Mijo read "The Emporer's New Clothes" once too many times as a kid.

@audioguy85 , I suppose the looks are subjective. If anything else is subjective it is a bad turntable.

@brunorivademar, When you have records with uneven surfaces and eccentric spindle hole those speed specs mean saw dust. Records are never going to be that accurate. Signal to noise ration is MUCH more important. Noise you can hear and when it comes to rumble wastes amplifier power and increases distortion. 

@rauliruegas , that is when Denon made great stuff although the arm on the  DP-100M was a stretch to far. The armless version was the one to get. We use to stick Infinity Black Widows on them. Shure V-15 heaven. 

@brunorivademar  : Who cares about TechDas/Micro Seiki or the OMA?

Similar radio station vintage tonearms where all superior to the 927 , examples: 

SP10MK2:  0.001%        DP100:  0.002%

Those were designed ( as the 927 ) for radio station play.

The SP10MK3 was designed for home and some radio stations used, Denon had two models one for radio station and one for home use: DP-100 and DP-100M and I think exist a third DP100 for RS.

Do it a self favor and don't put your bullets in the 927 because you always will lost in any dialogue on that specific regards.

R.

@mijostyn subjective, poor excuse? How? Most everything in audio is "subjective". What you hear is not what someone else may hear, or even like or appreciate. Hence, the reason there is so many turntables, speakers, amps, headphones, etc.....some like direct drive, some prefer belt drive, some like a moving coil, others prefer moving magnet. There are way to many variables...​​​​​​

@brunorivademar  : It's you whom just ignore that MF reviews measurements are totally non-accurated and he accepted when say " only for entertaionment " and this posted here not on the reviews.

R.

@rauliruegas "

Techdas Airforce Zero speed inaccuracy -0.34% + 0.45%

0.79% speed inaccuracy

Oma k3 +-0.34% 0.68% innacuracy.

Much worse results.

Got it?

Can you see the measurements right in from of your eyes?

This are the true facts, not illusions

Dear @brunorivademar  :  " These are the true facts ( not " illusions. ) measurements/specs in the 1957 designed 927:

speed unnaccuracy: +,- 0.15%, the swing tell us that the speed unaccuracy in reality is: 0.30% ( the worst I ever seen in any TT. ).

wow an flutter: +,- 0.05% with a swing of: 0.1% ( again the worst I ever seen in any TT. ).

signal to noise ratio: 58db ( again............. ).

as I posted: the 927 was designed for radio stations  ..."

Got it?

R.

Dear @brunorivademar  : You are biased to the EMT but you don't show yet facts that can probe what you " imagine ".

It's weird that the cutting lathe machines used DD servo units and not idler ones.  Do you know why?, if you have the rigth answer mainly be for you.

@mijostyn  Technics DD servo units were used in cutting lathe machines as the SP-02 that's similar ( with higher torque ) than the SP10MK3 even in some cutting lathe the SP10MK3 was used.

My favorite vintage DD is the Denon DP 100, I like that TT.

R.

I wonder if the OP has listened to all the tables ever made by now...

@dover, that is very true but in regards to the music they do not. The timing of the music is the purview of the artist. They do not play to account for speed instability of the playback device. Any deviation from a constant 33.33 is in error (assuming the lathe was not off). You are correct in that instability of the turntable can hurt the timing of the music if it is bad enough and older idler turntables are far less stable than good modern ones. Even if they are good when new wear on multiple parts will take it's toll. This may not be true of older DD table as they have fewer mechanical parts to wear. I have no idea what aging of electronic parts will do but all bearings will wear out eventually. 

@rauliruegas The most ground breaking turntable of all time was the AR XA. It broke the norm and introduced brand new technology that substantially improved playback. All turntables before it were compromised by their idler drive mechanisms which were needed to change speed with the lack of electronic motor control. By 1960 that technology had exhausted itself until they were dumped on the market for pennies on the dollar and audiophiles on a budget started tinkering around with them. My very first table was a used TD 124 and for a 13 year old audiophile it was brilliant. But, even with a good cleaning, lubing and change of idler wheels it still rumbled like a freight train. Subwoofers were still a years away so it did not matter as much. Since the XA we have direct drive tables, electronic management of belt drive tables, vacuum clamping and various new thrust mechanism, magnetic and air. If you can think of anything else please add on. 

@audioguy85 , subjective? that is a poor excuse. There is nothing or should be nothing subjective about a turntable. It's performance characteristics are easily measured. If it changes the sound it is because it has an unwelcomed resonance. This is not true of cartridges and tonearms. They can alter the sound in ways we can not easily measure. And as always most of what people think they hear has been psychologically modified. 

Such a broad statement...very subjective. What sounds good to you, may sound like crap to someone else. 

@mijostyn 

A turntable does not have timing or pace for that matter. 

Actually it does. Because as you said

A turntable just spins at 33.33 rpm as quietly and accurately as possible. A great turntable has no sound of it's own. 

But they don't. And there's the rub. Thats why they all sound different.

Instability in TT's will destroy the timing as recorded.

@dover You said the weakness of the 124 is the belt. I agree. In fact I was just wondering if I could build some kind of kevlar belt for it. Something more stable. Belts are definitely a problem.

Also interesting point you mentioned regarding the self correction of AC motors vs DC motors. 

@rauliruegas I've read Fremer's reviews. I can't speak for measurements using a vinyl disc but I do believe gyroscopes give pretty accurate readings and I stand by what I said.

The 3 turntables I mentioned are all direct drive but they use some kind of wizardy technology that I don't understant. They are the exception. And that's why they are the only ones to have those numbers published.

Dear @mijostyn  : I agree almost on what you posted but that BS expression because some vintage TTs, evenm today, have excellent design merits that we can't just dimished.

R.

@brunorivademar  : " But the only thing I can think the 927 has in favor besides the high torque is the much lower deviation from a perfect 33.33 at ALL times.."

In this thread are posted the 927 specs. Look for and you will read how bad measures that EMT.

R.

@brunorivademar  : " I would challenge any direct drive or belt drive turntable owner to share speed deviations and not many would be below +-0.20% Does it make any difference? I  "

Wrong again. What you posted in that thread specified: 0% speed stability and was you who posted on those 3 DD TTs you mentioned there and that I shared here.

R.

Dear @brunorivademar   : Fremmer has been using for his reviews is pretty accurate.

Wrrong. In the thread where M.Fremer posted what I posted to you and where you posted several gentlemans discussed about that " accuracy " and the final result was that is non-accurated and that's why Fremer posted what I send to you and not for the reason you said.

Do it you a favor and read the thread where you posted.

R.

@dover , there are many reasons your Garrard sounds better than your other tables besides the drive. I respectfully disagree with that terminology. A turntable does not have timing or pace for that matter. The music has that. A turntable just spins at 33.33 rpm as quietly and accurately as possible. A great turntable has no sound of it's own. Cartridge may have a sound of their own and IMHO those are the least desirable cartridges. The tonearm can certainly influence the sound a cartridge manufactures but again the best arms have no sound of their own and hold the cartridge rigidly with only 2 degrees of freedom. Coloration added to the sound my be pleasing to some people but it is distortion non the less.

@brunorivademar 

All i’m saying is that with regards to that particular measurement idlers seem to have an advantage because of higher revving motors and thus less motor cogging. 

I have refurbished a few Garrards. I also have a vintage Exclusive broadcast idler.

My reference TT for the past 30 odd years is a thread drive with 26kg platter and motor that dwarfs most  TT's. The large AC motor is driven off of a precision sine and cosine wave generator and separate power amplifier. It is superior to the idlers by some margin.

On the other hand I had a Platine Verdier for a while as a second TT - the idlers easily surpass the Verdier. I swapped my reference TT motor drive over to the Verdier and voila - there's the problem - pee wee motor.

Personally I believe the idler "sound" is not the idler drive itself - in my opinion it is the big AC motor drive that is creating that "drive". The removal of a rubber belt also contributes, but I think the big AC motor is the key.

The weakness in the Thorens 124 is the rubber belt.

The problem with modern TT's is that nobody produces quality AC motors any more. Both my reference TT and the Exclusive idler have AC motors the size of a fist - and they are dead silent - even with my ear right next to the motor spindle.

Finally when AC motors self correct for any lag, they do so in a sinusoidal fashion - DC motors when speed corrected do so in a saw tooth -  in other words speed recovery on AC motors is smoother and more benign.

@mijostyn 

 idler drives ALWAY rumble more than any other drive type. and if you had corrected subwoofers you would know that. 

That may be true but there are many other aspects that contribute to TT performance. I refurbished a Garrard 301 for a second system - it blew away the Platine Verdier I was using as a second deck. It also blew away an SME 20. Better timing.

As an aside an associate has a Denon RCP53C idler. He is a professional DJ.

The Denon idler blows off the DD Technics he uses - both as a home audio front end and DJ'ing. It's start and stop time is phenomenal - the best I've seen from any deck - and I've seen a lot.

@lewm , you do not have corrected subwoofers and your Lenco does rumble more than any other drive type. If you think it sounds good wonderful, spin away.