??? Wood Plinths: Layers: 7/2/1 ? Wood Type: Solid or Veneer or Vinyl Wrap wood look ?

best-groove,

thanks for the info and photos

yeah, Chipboard, that's the name for the Mitsubishi Deck, with smooth paintable surface.

looscannon,

thanks for the link to the AR TT video, an enjoyable and informative hour,

I can assure you that the plinth of pioneer PL70 (I assume it is the same for Pioneer PL70II) even if very heavy it is entirely in wood chipboard, do you know how the box speakers were built in the 70s / 80s? Here it is the same, perhaps it is high density wood chipboard but always chipboard is, while the top coating is real wood veneer.

The Technics SH10-B3 plinth consists of the lower base in real wood (multilayer), a central layer of double rubber and the upper top in obsidian, but I who have disassembled everything I say that there is obsidian powder, glue and cement, everything poured into a mold and then painted in piano black.
From the my Technics SH 10B3 base I can safely put photos


https://i.postimg.cc/tCnJXZV9/P1000547.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/zvbzX6vx/DSCN6111.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/cCpsKh80/DSCN6113.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/sXzH2h2q/P1000551.jpg


compressed wood dust (MDF) is better than the chipboard of the past but it is disastrous to build turntable plinths, it has the advantage of being very cheap, compact and easy to work with very precise cuts, but it is too deaf a material, contraindicated to make plinths of turntables.

Solid bases are always a problem. AR figured that out in the late 60's.
Every turntable jockey need to see this video. It is a brilliant demonstration.   https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=112447

The only argument I have is the XA's lack of anti skate. Yes, you can only set it for an average but that average is the difference is the difference between a skewed cantilever and a straight one an obvious visual difference that anyone can see. Just defeat your anti skate mechanism and watch where the cantilever goes. This places the cartridges "motor" in a geometrically incorrect position.

for instance

The Mitsubishi Vertical Turntable LT-5V deck and legs are composite wood (MDF?), painted grey to look like metal. I was surprised when I picked it up, not light but not as heavy as I anticipated. Sound deadening was their reasoning.

thanks,

we know victor big plinth's are real wood veneer on composite 70mm (2-3/4") thick, 7 layer, no need to dig that one out. arm boards are around 19mm (3/4") thick, multi layer, matching real veneer.

the pioneer, and others like that, many pre-packaged combos of deck/arm from jvc, pioneer, denon, sony, ...

are the true subject of this inquiry, not an exhaustive study, just answers if people know them,

as so many of them look like real wood, but may be vinyl wraps that look like wood. some have an acrylic 'pour' over ____?

and the descriptions can be misleading.

and some are 'good', thick', long lasting glue, ... so those experiences are good to know, 

and some are solid wood.

IOW, Pandora's Box, is it wood?

I meant answers about factory plinths and factory turntable bases,

give me a few days and I will show you with photos and description of the plinths of Piooner PL 70, Victor CL P1 Technics SH10B3 ... I have to extract them from their packaging.
I hope I understand exactly what you ask for not to work unnecessarily.

My forced air system makes dust a plenty.

chackster, didn't you day you loved the Denon 3000?

says this denon 3000 works, $290 or make offer

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DENON-DP3000-Turntable-DJ-Music-Club-Servo-Direct-Drive-Shipping-From-Japan-Used/303566080423?_trkparms=aid%3D1110009%26algo%3DSPLICE.COMPLISTINGS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200220094952%26meid%3D5bb2df59ead840b8ae699c8ff7ade39b%26pid%3D100008%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D174151940188%26itm%3D303566080423%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3Ddefault%26brand%3DDenon&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219

I have 8 turntables now and only one of them with dust cover for one reason (because i don't use this turntable). 

Bill, I own a TT101, complete with the Victor plinth, dust cover, and a UA7045 tonearm. So I am well aware of the quality of the construction of the dust cover.  And using it to protect from dust when the turntable is idle is perfectly valid.  What I don't do is use the dust cover when I am using the TT101.  (In other words, cover down while playing LPs.) That is the crux of an audiophile argument.  Truth be told, my dust cover sits on the floor at some distance from the TT101 and is never used at all.  Also, there was some discussion of the armboard.  I don't know what wood it's made of; it could be MDF or it could be a laminate.  In any case, I and a machinist friend made substitute arm boards out of aluminum, for more rigidity and less MDF coloration.  I hear a SQ gain from doing that.
Cleeds, I hope Mijostyn is in good health, whatever would be the reason for his failing to assert himself here.

lewm

Why the heck do you want a cover in the first place? It’s useless except if you want to degrade sound quality ...

Isn't it obvious? A dustcover keeps the dust off of the turntable. Most can easily be removed.

This remark will get Mijostyn interested in your thread ...

Mijostyn isn't going to be around for a while.

I would never have a TT without a dust cover. I had a Thorens TD 124 without one, but it was at eye level in a tall cabinet, pocket doors closed when not in use.

I prefer to play with them OFF, however, hinged covers, first I check to see if it effects level when left up. If not (Audio Technica 120 cover up maintains level), then I just left it up when playing.

I put felt pads on one end of my big plinth cover, lift it off, place it on it's edge, leaning upright out of sight, out of the way

Why the heck do you want a cover in the first place?

Why do most TT have covers or rather "Dust Covers"? Do I really need to answer that question?
BTW, the dust covers on this size plinth don't hinge, they are to big and heavy. You just pick it up and set it aside when you want to use the TT.
The dust cover that comes with this table is thick PlexiGlas and crystal clear. As someone who spent a few years working in a plastics fabrication shop I can testify to it's very high quality.
I'm really impressed with the quality of this Victor table, it far exceeded my expectations. I'm sure Elliott would tell you the same.
BillWojo

Why the heck do you want a cover in the first place? It’s useless except if you want to degrade sound quality by having it in the down position while playing LPs. This remark will get Mijostyn interested in your thread. So I have done you a favor, maybe. Otherwise, you guys do realize, don’t you, that you could be having this conversation with each other by email?

Well my Victor CL-P2D plinth, dust cover and TT 61 motor drive came in today. Not only is it big it's very heavy as well.
The plinth is in very nice shape, a real beauty. My armboards are a bit different than most I see. They are perfectly rectangular. This will make it easy to make extras.First order of business is to mount my Audio Technica ATP-12T tonearm in the rear position. I need to find a chunk of 3/4" aluminum, I'm going to make a new armboard for that position. There is already a hole about 1" away from where the new hole needs to be. I'll save that for future use. The armboard on the right side has never been drilled. If I find a Victor UA-7082 tonearm, it will go in that position.
BillWojo

btw, that Blackbird arm rear counterweight portion of the arm just fits inside of the huge dust cover, and I cut a notch in my dust cover for the arm’s junction box, (the Russians at New Art Vinyl don’t like the sound of DIN connectors), so the cartridge wires start above the deck. I could have drilled a small hole, put the box below, or put the box on the rear face of the deck, but the wires are the most delicate silk covered litz wires I ever saw, and considering future changes ... He says there are 38 strands of individually coated copper inside the silk sheath. Hell to deal with, but sounds terrific.

Aside from construction, I was hoping we could gather together descriptions of the final finish surfaces.

Big JVC Victor Plinths are real wood veneer, with a semi-gloss finish.

The type of wood veneer, i.e. walnut, rosewood, .... it is actually hard to know for sure, it may be they specifically selected highly figured walnut and added a reddish color stain which makes you suspect rosewood. In any case, very nice.

The arm boards are 3/4" thick, also special bonded layers, same veneer.

The grain pattern on the arm boards is the same direction as the deck, and very well matched, however the arm board(s) could have been moved from one plinth to another, or purchased separately, and years of light can discolor portions of the deck, so a faded armboard might not look good in an un-faded deck.

Ask about existing holes, the distance, center of spindle to center of hole. and the diameter of the hole. Depending on the size of an arm's base plate, you can 'ease' a hole a bit farther or closer by enlarging the hole a bit one way or another. worked for my rear arm.

When you add a long arm, things get tricky. If it had a Victor 7082, that is 282mm center to center, 11-1/8". I put my Blackbird arm, 12.5" center to center, new location, then had an exposed hole. It was a 1-1/2" hole, so I bought a 1-5/8" bit, drilled a round plug out of 1/2" wood, the plug just smaller than 1-1/2". Blackened top surface with marker, and taped the plug in from the bottom. Now there is a 1/4" round recess where I keep the 45 adapter, looks nice.

williewonka, I agree with the high mass approach and layered plinth construction. I should have my Victor CL-P2D plinth and TT 61 motor on Monday according to UPS tracking. I did buy the dustcover, probably have that by the end of next week as well.
I want to publicly thank Elliot as well for bringing that TT to my attention. I tend to forget about the Canadian market and there are deals to be had with the dollar being so strong.

So lets get back to the original post and talk about factory issued wood plinths and their construction.
I can offer that the plinth of my Victor CL-P2D is 7 layers, top, bottom and middle two layers are wood composite and the other 3 layers are a inorganic material. It's a layered construction alternating between the two types of material, each layer about 10mm thick. I have read reports that the arm boards are layered as well.
The plinth is quite heavy and very "dead" by all accounts.

BillWojo

@elliottbnewcombjr - not sure if you wanted to consider DIY approaches, but I have learned some useful tips when building mine.

I had a Rega Planar 2 and was never satisfied with it’s performance, so I thought I’d give building a new plinth a try.

Rega’s approach was to build a plinth that dispersed/shed vibrations, but it always seemed to only do half the job and the rest had to be accomplished by various stand/shelf approached

My approach was to build a more dense plinth that would not vibrate due to musical vibrations and to do this I opted for a HIGH MASS approach

I used three layers of MDF each layer machined to allow for arm and bearing mounting and Wiring and motor housing.

The layers are glued together for a very dense, but ring-free plinth
- The finish is red gloss paint

The feet are 2" diameter bronze cones placed at strategic locations to minimize vibrations being transferred to the arm and bearing

It sits on a granite tile, with foam between the granite and a 3/4" MDF shelf.

The result is a very stable (albeit heavy) TT that does not convey footsteps or musical vibrations and works incredibly well with the Rega style arms - mine is the classic Series 3 from Audiomods.

The TT also has an acrylic platter and alloy sub-platter all supported by a ceramic ball bearing.

The result is a very clean, detailed sound with exceptionally crisp dynamics.

Here’s a couple of links showing more details.
http://image99.net/blog/files/04fdba8476cfd21bdd7a5fdf38c8cdf5-28.html
http://image99.net/blog/files/category-isolation.html

Hope you find this useful - Steve

btw, 

any forum, cameras, audio, ... any thread, I always imagine other interested readers, amateur or pro, learning stuff as I did in the beginning

so I tend to answer more than the OP's original question or issue.

When a thread takes a side line, I hope to get back on line, start a new thread, or private message as you say.

links do disappear, but for learning now, they work well.

chakster

you are right, I moved to private messages, sorry it didn't occur to me.

I also am curious, do you mean Denon puts a nicer finish on their plinths? They look good in photos ('ve never seen the real thing), the Victor large plinths are a a low lustre semi-gloss, less shine, less glare

structural differences?

I'm curious why you think the Denon plinth is better. I've not seen anything about the Denon plinth so I can't really compare. I know the Victor plinth is a 7 layer sandwich of wood and some sort of material in between. 70mm thick and very heavy, covered with a nice veneer.  It's hollowed out for the motor and arm boards, the rest is solid.Not trying to start an argument, trying to learn the differences.Thank you
BillWojo

You guys could sort all that by private messages or it must be public?

Regarding links they will all be expired soon and will be useless for our readers in a few month.

Speaking about plinth i think Denon top model plinth is better than Victor top model plinth.    

He won't budge from $150.00 and wants to be payed Paypal friends and family so the buyer has no recourse if it's damaged in shipping.
Not to happy with that.

BillWojo

Hi Elliot, I asked him for a price on the dust cover and he came back with $150.00 shipped. I assume that is Canadian dollars. I'll hit him up with a counter offer.
Lets see what happens.
Billwojo

Bill,

Before success with Vlad,

I had one arrive smashed (improperly packaged), then UPS smashed it more inspecting the damage.

I wrote to someone on eBay who makes Dust Covers. He gave me a price, and, if I took a nice photo of it on my TT, that he could use for future sales, he would give me a nice percentage off, so, one way or another you will get one.

However, the factory cover is very heavy, 3/16" thick because of it's large size, beautiful, precise hand cutouts, aligns with the rubber locators on the deck (see photo of your deck, 4 of them stick up in the corners).

So factory is the best idea.

I'm going to ask him.
Thanks
BillWojo

well, does he have the cover? and will he sell it separately?

Hi Elliot, I heard back from him this morning and the cover is not included. Oh well, I'll deal with that later but it's not going to be easy to find one, that's for sure.I found a pic of the TT 61 with the cover off and board exposed. I don't see a quartz crystal so I suspect the main difference is that this is not quartz locked.
It still looks like it has the substantial motor of the TT 71 and TT 81 and I suspect a frequency generator as well so the performance should not be far off at all.
I posted pics over on AK, look under TT, JVC QL-?? owners thread, page 9. Lots of good info on the JVC QL series tables. I started that post to consolidate info on this series.
I still need to find a DIN cable to plug into the bottom of my Audio Technica ATP-12T tonearm. That will be first up.
BillWojo

I’d love to find a JVC plinth from Japan or Europe that has the armboard. I have a QL-A7 with the black glossy plinth.I have several arms to try out.

I have the plinth you’re looking for, it’s from my spare TT-101, the plinth for 2 tonearms (big one). I’m gonna keep the small one, so i don’t need the big one for two tonearms (2 armboards included, but already drilled) and i can let it go if anyone else is interested. A working TT-101 is optional too. 

Bill,

You will love it, and the price is very good IMO.

I've been watching it for a long while. He never showed a photo, or mentioned the dust cover. (why it didn't sell IMO). (and nobody seems excited about TT61).

When asked, surprisingly for that price, his response seemed to be, of course it is included, factory, very good condition, so be hopefull.

I find less info about the TT61, however, my guess is when you test it before you switch to yout TT71, you will find no performance difference. More 'primitive' looking speed adjustments, who cares.

I think a lot of the improvements, 61, 71, 81, 101, 801 were for progression/perfection of engineering in the peak of TT era with lots of competition from other great engineers. Awesome days.

They all maintain speed fantastically, all are solid whirling space ships, and the plinth is superb!

Thanks Elliott, I just sent him a message and even included your message from him. I doubt it will do any good at this point as he should have my payment by now. To be fair, the add didn't mention a dust cover, I assume he pulled that out of the add before I even saw it.
Do you know anything about the TT61? I can find no information about that model of motor drive. Vlad said that my TT71 and up will fit right in.
Thank youBill

what do you mean. he has the cover, he told me it was included, and that it is in very good shape.

you could write him and quote me that he said it was included. I have it in writing from him.

he also said he would include a transformer for the TT61.

He might have going further for me than a new customer, but I would definitely get that cover.

..........................

found it


Vladimir Zharkov <vzharkov@hotmail.com>Tue, May 5, 8:09 PMReplyto meHello Elliott,

I hope you are well there at this hard time.

1. The cover is original factory made in very good condition.
2.  I will include a trasformer
3.  Tonearm has bare wires which were soldered to audio cable
4.  Shipping would be around $120 via carrier

Regards,
Vlad

Well I talked to him and purchased it for $382.00 USD shipped minus the tonearm. I can't find anything about the TT61 motor assembly. I figure it's a much cheaper version of the TT71 that I have. Big negative is it comes with no cover. Hopefully I can sell the motor for enough to get a cover if I can find one.

BillWojo

you might ask him to keep the TT61 and pioneer tonearm, tell him you won’t need the transformer in that case.

less for him to pack and ship,

he might reduce the price some, I asked him a long time ago to sell just the base, he was not receptive, but he just reduced the price because it is not moving, my guess is not selling because he didn’t show the dust cover and people prefer TT71, TT81. Dollar is strong now!

If Vlad says the dust cover is very nice, I don't doubt his word.

I just contacted the seller in Canada about the TT61 with the CL-P2 plinth. I assume that the plinth will work with my TT71 motor unit.
I have both a Audio Technica ATP-12T and a Micro Seiki MA-202L tonearm, both 10" units to play with. My usual cart is the Denon DL-103. Should work very nice.Thank you for the link, fingers crossed.
BillWojo

billwojo

here is a CL-P2 with a TT81 spinner, and a long JVC Victor 7082 arm. The arm has bad suspension grommet that isolates the rear counterweight section, you would need to fix it, then it’s a terrific arm.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VICTOR-CL-P2-TT-81-UA-7082-Analog-Player-Set-AC100V-Working-Properly-F-S-d60/254585467881

I fixed one, I simply got rubber grommets at Home Depot, if you have skills and small tools, it is not hard or expensive at all.

billwojo

I bought my CL-P2 from a Russian in Canada named Vlad. Superb protective shipping, great communication.

He has another CL-P2, in great shape, says dust cover (not shown) is in great shape, he will include a transformer 120/100 volt. It has a TT61 spinner in it, and a Pioneer Arm with cable attached.

https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649624766-victor-tt-61-quality-direct-drive-turntable/?utm_campaign=response-received&utm_source=notification&utm_medium=email

his current list of ads

https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/userads.php?user_id=10089

I recommend him without hesitation,

Elliott

I meant answers about factory plinths and factory turntable bases, not looking for advice or custom solutions, thanks.

The way you’re doing it will only drive you crazy. The reason is because the whole turntable/arm/cartridge/shelf system is vibrating. You can talk about any one individual part, change any one individual component, and hear a difference and know why- because it was just the one thing. So if you for example build a couple different bases or arm boards and change them out keeping everything else the same, fine. We can talk about that. You can evaluate that. But that’s not what you’re doing. You’re saying plinth but talking about whole complete different turntables. Which is a whole complete different thing. Right now you are asking about completely different turntables with completely different bearings, motors, platters, on and on, then trying to zero in on the type of wood, as if none of that other stuff is going on. Drive yourself crazy, and everyone around you too.

Check out my system. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 I built that. The rack, the table- and not just this one but what you don’t see, a bunch of prototypes or trial efforts or whatever you want to call it. I’ve heard the same components (bearing, platter, etc) with only one change (plinth, arm, motor, etc) one at a time. Not only on the Miller Carbon but on a Basis table before that. I guess you could say I kind of have a clue.

Two things I can say based on your question. One, forget your current approach. Forget asking people here for advice. Look for turntables you can afford, and when you find one search out all the reviews. Buy based on those reviews. Or Two, do like I did and get yourself a turntable constructed in such a way as to facilitate modifications. Something with a simple base you can build yourself using different materials. There’s general things you will learn, like every material imparts its own signature sound. Which is why laminates are so common. Laminating materials together averages out the good and bad of a lot of imperfect materials. Awful lotta work for a table for a office. I would go with the first one, and start reading reviews.

Take your time and don’t stress because no matter what at the end of the day you will have a turntable, and it is pretty hard to go bad when you got that going for you.

I use stair flats, 3/4 butcher block black oak, with 1/8" red oak veneers and a 1 x 1" red oak toe kick. I can swap the top and use, 121.124 Thoren, Any of the Russco, Sparta, QRC, Garrard 301, 401..
Then I uses a good BR high bubble count, to line the interior,  of the plinth and underside of the TT,  everything.. Long panels, double up.. Dead silent... Green concrete... Heavy with TT 45-65 lbs

I'm watching this. I'd love to find a JVC plinth from Japan or Europe that has the armboard. I have a QL-A7 with the black glossy plinth.I have several arms to try out.

BillWojo