Don't overlook one of the "weak links" in a system.... ac outlets! |
Don't believe anyone who says you cannot get ever closer to realism in reproducing musical performances.
Don't forget to have fun and to enjoy the music.
Don't believe anyone who says all amps, all power cords, etc. sound the same. There are always very smart people out there who go beyond the conventional wisdom about how to build things.
Never conclude that your system is as good as it can be. Be satisfied and enjoy, but you are never "there."
Never be satisfied that you have your system best placed in your room.
Find others who share what you find to be good sound. They may be in your area, reviewers, or internet friends. They greatly broaden your horizons. When I first started in this hobby Stereophile and later The Absolute Sound were valued inputs in addition to two local dealers and one other local audiophile. All of this is gone now.
Don't be too concerned that few, if any, of your friends are audiophiles. I have been involved with many hobbies that have fewer adherents, such a catamaran racing and auto racing. Go to local audio shows and make friends there.
Have fun. |
Hifisoundguy, yes, for years I rejoiced in the fact that my cheap house builder chose to use Eagle outlets, as they sounded much better than the Levitons, especially their hospital grade ones.
Relative to my early systems, all manner of new concerns have become important. Cabling, power cords, shelves, record cleaning, stylus cleaning, and isolation feet now matter. |
It is possible to be economically deprived and still be in the "High end". First, you have to buy the low end of the "High end", next you improve it by swapping out capacitors. Always make your own interconnects; Vampire wire and Belden have very good products. You can also build speakers for home theater and bedroom; you will need an engineer to design crossover for listening room speakers. It is possible to have the highest of the "high end" sound on the cheap. |
Orpheus 10,
Yes, it is possible as demonstrated by my friend the "Evil Weed". He has parlayed a modest investment into a SOA system by buying his gear on the internet and then having it modified by the original designers who often no longer work for the company and often are thrilled to update their designs, often at very reasonable prices. It also helps if you have friends who are willing to loan you pieces for audition. Sometimes we forget that yesterday's
Editor's Choice is just as good even if it has been replaced by a new product. Audio is a fickle industry. I am using a TT that is almost 20 years old and speakers that are almost 8 years old. |
Listen to as many systems as you can
Buy what works for you, not anyone else
A very modest, well thought out system set up properly will outperform a much more expensive system that is poorly set up
Don't listen to the hype. There's so much BS in this hobby it ain't funny
In the end it's the music - Enjoy listening always |
1. It's all about the music!
2. Placement of your speakers/gear in your listening room can make a bigger difference, good or bad, than any piece of equipment so spend the time to get it right.
3. Don't get cought up in equipmentmania. Use your ears more than specs when auditioning gear. Good equipment will "involve" you in the music.
4. Usually in this game, you get what you pay for. Some of the prices may seem a bit "scarry" to the novice but good equipment will last and last and in the long run is usually less expensive than buying cheap stuff.
5. It's all about the music! I read a hint in this thread that recommended you pay attention when the hairs on the back of your neck raise. That hits the nail on the head. A great system will also be great "emotionally." Regardless of the brands.
6. Have fun!!! |
Don't listen too much to the experts....oops...well, what I mean is that if it sounds good to YOUR ears, then put some weight on that. Everybody has their preference, loud/bright/ detailed/less loud,etc. Your instincts aren't far off, but the equipment may be, i.e. poor equipment may give inconsistent results, and price is not always a guarantee of quality. |
You will never achieve what you want or expect. This becomes even more true with the more you spend. |
1) Buy used
2) Buy used
3) Buy used
4) Buy used
5) Buy used |
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1) Learn what real music sounds like. Attend live, un-amplified musical performances in order to hear what instruments and voices sound like in real acoustic spaces. If you don't have access to a world class ensemble, you can still hear some quality music at student recitals at your local college.
2) Don't read equipment reviews. The only reason any magazine or website publishes them is to attract readers who will then attract advertisers. Reading equipment reviews only brings on distrust and doubts about both your system as well as your own hearing and listening abilities. Remember, the only qualification any critic of anything ever had is the fact that he got the gig. Trust your own ears because you are the person who will be listening to your system, not the reviewer.
3) Go and listen to some quality made in the early and middle 1960's tube gear, like Marantz, McIntosh, Scott, Fisher, Harmon Kardon, etc. You will realize that over the last fifty years, the audio industry has not made the quantum leaps in performance that it likes to think that it has. After a listen, you will most likely feel that you do not need to have the "Latest and greatest" gear in order to have a pleasurable listening experience.
4) Listen with your heart as much as your ears. We listen to music in order to have an emotional connection with the performer. They are playing or singing about something that we cannot necessarily say for ourselves. Does music played on your system move you emotionally? If a piece of music affects you in such a way that you are physically moved to tears, then your system is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. When that happens on a regular basis, don't change a thing!
5) Do maintain your system and find out about inexpensive tweaks. Keeping all of your electrical connections clean and tight, keeping your cables tidy and off of the floor and cleaning your LP's and CD's will enhance the quality of your listening experience while maintaining the value of your investment.
Also:
6) The room is the most important part of the system.
7) The quality of the recordings you play is the second most important part of the system. However, you should keep in mind that a great recording of a poor musical performance is just that.
8) Your mood is the third most important part of your system. If you are in a great mood, then music on a boombox can be thrilling but if you aren't in the mood, the greatest sounding system in the world will be of no help.
9) Share your music with others.
10) It doesn't hurt to learn to play a musical instrument and to play it with other musicians. The more you know about music, the greater its impact will be when you listen to it. |
Would I would say is markedly different from what most here have said ...
* Your system with its current set of components can be made absolutely magical or "real" if you eliminate all the weaknesses in it: that is, it has minimal unpleasant distortion
* Every recording you have or obtain will be totally enjoyable as a musical experience, if the system has minimal distortion, yes, even those appalling, recorded in the worst possible way horrors
* Contrary to what many have said, the room setup and size is NOT the way to getting good sound. Yes, fiddling with room bit and pieces can help to compensate for weaknesses, but if the sound emerging from the speaker drivers has too much distortion in it, then you have to work very hard with all that room stuff to try and compensate
* Get the treble right and everything else falls into place. Trouble is, it can be hard, very hard, to get rid of the treble distortion
* The Listening In Another Room (LIAR) method is an excellent test. Your aim should be to get to the point, where you can put on a string quartet recording, say, at close to maximum clean volume (for your system), go to the furthest point of your house, say, "yes, that sounds convincing, sounds like the real thing", then proceed back to the system, to stand a foot away from a speaker, and still be able to say the same thing. The tonal quality and sense of what is going on musically shouldn't change as you make that little trip |
Having the bug bad can be good if you buy used gear you can afford to set-up two or more systems. More than 1 or 2 systems affords your ability mix gear, all the while moving forward. Trust your ears not the price of equipment. Cables and such hmmm... some of it seems to pricey for a wise return I'm still not convinced that it can make a dramatic difference, there are many that would argue. And last just remember you should be doing this to enjoy the music. And never tell your wife what you spent. |
the use of sound processors and tweaks such as dakiom feedback stabilizers for vibration control in cleaning up system whether it's necessary or not depending on the type of system you decide to match solid state or tube. It's like having a FIRST AID kit. Don't get carried away with the controversies of snake oil cables, power conditioners, spikes, cones etc that cost more then your system. Most of these marketing schemes in REALITY do not make much difference in MOST ears or anyone with a sound mind. It's the design of your equipment and most of all WHAT SOUNDS good to your ears NOT from someone else's opinion or the salesman. In selecting a loudspeaker which is the most important in your link, check the strengths and weaknesses of the many types of designs that matches your musical taste before deciding what's best for you and amplifier matching is equally important. |
Armyscout41, all that seems true in your statement is one should buy what one prefers and that seems obvious. |
My comments are for those that buy used equipment and want accurate sound reproduction. Sorry for exceeding 4.
1. Pick up the following books: The Art of Electronics (Horowitz and Hill), Troubleshooting Analog Circuits (Pease), Self on Audio (Self), Audio Power Amplifier Design Handbook (Self), High Power Audio Amplifier Construction (Slone).
2. Understand that the electronic components used in audio equipment regardless of how high end the equipment is have finite useful service lives. Electrolytic capacitors dry out over time, transistors become "leaky" (including "indestructible" power MOSFET's), resistors drift from their original impedance and can become noisier, etc. The service lives of components can be obtained from the manufacturers' datasheets. Excessive heat and over-voltages will seriously reduce a component's service life.
3. You may actually like the distorted sound of the deteriorated audiophile equipment. Added harmonic distortion can make impact sounds have a more forceful sound, but that sound was not what was recorded.
4. Although you will see terms like "mint", "no problems", "serviced by manufacturer", preamps and power amplifiers with ages greater than ten years will by no means be performing as well as they did when new. The seller is only giving their subjective assessment, not an objective one based on a full complement of diagnostic tests with proper test equipment. Having asked manufacturers directly, they have all said that to return their products to the same performance level when new is a costly and time consuming endeavor. Any service is designed to get the component back to a performance level commensurate with the cost you pay.
5. Even when using an oscilloscope and looking at sine waves, you have to remember you are most likely looking at the averaged waveform so it may be smoother than the actual individual waveforms. If your scope has an FFT function, seeing that display will be more revealing. The human ear is a mechanical spectrum analyzer that can be quite precise with training (see "Principles of Neural Science 4th ed." by Kandel, Schwartz, and Jessell) so you can improve your own diagnostic abilities with proper training.
6. To properly test your used equipment, a good bench 6.5 digit DVM is required. A good transistor tester that can measure leakage is also invaluable - good small signal transistors should have near 0 leakage, and power MOSFET's should have no more than .2 microamps of measured leakage - worst case .3 microamps - in my opinion. A good analog oscilloscope up to 100MHz and with an FFT function is extremely good to have. If you buy new scope, most manufacturers have all sorts of free training seminars (or low cost).
7. It is a very good learning process to take apart an expendable old amp and preamp and to test the individual components with appropriate diagnostic equipment. It will be quite revealing and make you a more "savvy" buyer of used equipment.
8. Always test replacement new components. You will be quite surprised how much variation there is with resistance values, capacitances, etc. It is especially critical to do so, because most amps and preamps require components be identically matched for optimum performance. Also, do not mix and match. If you use a component different from the original you will most likely be required to adjust voltages and will require the schematics depending on the manufacturer, you may find a level of unwillingness as they will want to protect their proprietary designs.
9. Do not mess with trimpots IMHO. From my experience they tend to have gone bad and any change in adjustment will throw things off quite a bit. Before doing so you will want to replace them with new and better versions. You will also require the manufacturer's schematics that give you proper critical voltages throughout the circuits.
10. You should be wary of "performance mods". I've seen such mods where perfectly excellent WIMA Polypropylene 160V 5% caps that have a 300,000 hour service life were replaced by SiderealKaps of unknown dielectric 200V 10% caps of unknown service life. The replacement caps were all axial and had leads in excess of 4 centimeters. The WIMA's were radial so basically had minimal lead lengths. |
Coltrane1, the only problem with what you say is that without people like us buying gear new, there is no incentive for manufacturers to design and build new product. There is also the problem that it puts the few remaining small specialty audio shops even more at risk so there are fewer opportunities for us to check out gear before buying. Those same shops supply levels of service that are non-existent when buying used.
Additionally, the expertise of people who have spent their entire careers in the field is invaluable in many ways, not least of which in that it can at least warn you against making foolish purchases. |
1a. Use BIG, sensitive floor-standing speakers.
1b. Don't get speakers that go too low for your room.
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Listen to more systems than your own.
Listen to different types of speakers- stats, cones, horns,panels.
Same goes for amps, tubes, solid state, SET, Class A, Class D.
Listen to properly set up vinyl systems and digital systems.
Keep an open mind and an open ear.Don't be afraid to try something new to you just because it falls outside your realm of knowledge.
Always try before you buy.
Buy only if it's better not just different.
If you need less rolled off highs, don't add bloated bass as a trade off.
Seek out a system that has balance.In other words no extremes that draw attention to themselves-ie too bassy.
Don't be afraid to make mistakes.
Realize that your tatses will change as you progress in this hobby.
You may start out as a bass freek, and end up being being something quite different.
Never assume you knowitall, that it's as good as it gets, or that it's all snake oil.
If you feel it is all snake oil, or old hat, then it's time to find another hobby, the enjoyment is gone.
Listen to what others have to say but always make up your own mind about what you feel is right for you.
Forty years in the hobby, almost fifty years as a musician and I'm still learning.
And proud to say I haven't heard it all. |
"System Matching" and cables. Read and understand the spec sheets. Consider all matching cables like Mogami Gold. Know the differences between cables - analog, and digital 75 or 110 ohms. Use something like DeOx-It Gold to clean and treat sound and power cable connections.
Listen to the individual musicians' cadences carefully when setting up and balancing a system. When tuning a sub, turn the sub up higher than the Main's to better hear and match the rhythms and cadences together for high/low passes, phase, and roll-off "orders", or, number of octives.
When you add 6dB's, it doubles the sound pressure level. Reducing the distance 50% between a speaker and the listener, the sound pressure doubles, too (obvious, but good review).
Musical octives simply double (or split in half) the hertz or frequency points. That means a 550Hz signal or musical note, has harmonic octives at 225Hz and 1100 Hz and so on, up or down the musical range. If 550Hz is a A note, the others are harmonic octives.
Consider a certified audiogram and adjust your system to your ears if you have any age or noise related hearing loss. Use a analog sound level meter occassionally when adjusting your volume controller. That "resets" my ears to a standard.
To warm up speakers, tune in "smooth static" on a FM tuner and turn it up to about 90 dB's a couple minutes. It should still sound "soft" yet warm up all but the lowest frequency limitations on your tuner. Pink noise disks work better. I found the tuners' pink noise between stations works great, too.
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'Never assume you knowitall, that it's as good as it gets, or that it's all snake oil.
If you feel it is all snake oil, or old hat, then it's time to find another hobby, the enjoyment is gone.'
A better piece of advice would be, Seek the truth, tell the truth, recognize the truth when you hear it, and be governed by it. BECAUSE, if it is snake oil, then there is nothing wrong with saying it, or thinking it. And a person can stay in the hobby and coexist with the snake oil, just tread carefully. |
Don't get hung up on the equipment. Enjoy the music. |
Its all about the transducers, the things that change one form of energy to another. Its the things we understand the least, have conflicting ideas about, and spend a lifetime trying to understand. Investing in speakers and acoustics usually yields the best results (that's what they do in the best professional recoding studios).
Brad |
Transaudio, I guess I agree. I have always moved back and forth between differ types of drivers and never really happy with any, except for a short time. Presently, I am very happy with the Tidal Contriva diacera SEs, but if past history allows any prediction, this will be short-lived. |
Speakers, transducers being the weakest link, are the prime determinant to the overall quality of your system. Buy the best speaker you can afford and then choose an amp to drive them. Once that's done, your choice of analogue or digital source is wide open. You can play anthing you want to its best advantage with the right speaker/amp combination. |
Rep4ever, I used to agree with you but now don't. My experiences with vibration control suggest that even miniscule vibrations can make music reproduction fail to have the realism it might have. One company's introduction (StillPoints) of many devices with their new "technology in isolation feet has given me sound that I thought I would never hear out of reproduced music. All that I can say is that very small vibration that are not somehow excluded ones system ruin your sound whether you have great speakers or poor ones. |
Monophonic High Fidelity: Yes, Yes, Yes! |
Be honest with yourself and know your limitations. If you have a odd or small room which must be shared with the family you may be limited as your setup might be less than optimal. We all make compromises daily, but with highly revealing gear setup and matching is key. I had a pair of rear firing bipolar speakers in the 90's and lived in a rental with plaster walls with little or no room treatment, what an echo chamber. To say the least it was awful, but it wasn't the gear but the application. Many say brand X or Y is the best or maybe they tried and it sucked. Honestly I don't think you can buy crappy gear as it all can shine if properly implemented. Ever hear a bad review, not very often because the reviewers know how to optimize IMO YMMV. |
1. Tune your ears: attend acoustic (unamplified) music concerts -- This will forever be your sound reference.
2. Your first purchases: speakers and a compatible amplifier. I bought good speakers and a compatible amp 24 years ago, and they have kept pace with all the upgrades and changes I've made to the front end. This year I finally upgraded my amplifier (went tube). You never want your speakers to be the limiting factor in your system -- they are very expensive to replace!
3. When you make a change, listen to it for at least a month before deciding whether the change is good or bad. You will always hear a difference when you change something, but determining whether the change is for better or worst takes time.
If the day ever comes when you stop thinking about your equipment, and just want to listen to music, you've hit the jackpot!! |
Gshepardbuster, I have always wondered given the time I take to optimize new components, how reviewers can do so, in the short time they have the gear. Of course, some reviewers get the manufacturer to set up their gear for them. I also know that I have one very good room and one very small room in the two houses I live in. You hear very little about reviewers rooms. |
Tbg, I'm with ya, as I changed out my cdp and preamp last summer/fall and my heads still spinning. I even needed to reposition my speakers, further treat the room and outgrew my cabling, as crazy as it sounds! Before the changes my cheapo Monster power conditioner was adequate or unnecessary. Now with the much higher resolution gear all things were reassessed and a decent power conditioner was added. Then my room was further addressed. My cabling which was good, became another bottle neck and dealt with. The deeper I've delved into this, the more EVERYTHING MATTERS. If one area is weak all things can suffer. This is like algebra as one or more change can alter the whole equation. |
I concur with having the wife audition with you before buying-my wife can be in the next room with the washing machine going and she can hear a difference when i change inter connects_ I kid u not---and she sure looks better than my buddies sitting on the couch listening to music--lol---seriously-women hear more than we do-----great music and a pretty gal--doesnt get better than that my friend |
1. The match between speaker and amp
2. Clean power via dedicated spur and passive conditioning
3. maximum suppression of RFI on all connections
4. Dealing with room modes through acoustic conditioning
5. and yes: not being too stingy on source components, but only in fifth place |
1. The match between speaker and amp
2. Clean power via dedicated spur and passive conditioning
3. maximum suppression of RFI on all connections
4. Dealing with room modes through acoustic conditioning
5. and yes: not being too stingy on source components, but only in fifth place |
1. Ask your self why you want to buy audiophile grade gear? Is it for your enjoyment or to empress your friends?
2. If your answer to 1 is for your enjoyment then you need to buy gear based on what your ears enjoy.
3. If your answer to 1 is to impress your friends, then make sure you buy only well known, high dollar gear.
4. Explain the problems you will run into, if you don't live in Chicago, LA or NYC then you will be hard pressed to ever listen to any gear before you buy it, because there are never any dealers around anymore. They have all closed up. So you will have to develop a good relationship will an out of town dealer. And your friends, they will never be aquainted with the names of some of the best gear out there.
5. and lastly, not only do you have to listen and enjoy your equipment, you have to look at it every day, so my advice is to buy gear that looks as good as it sounds. There is nothing worse than a great sounding piece of audio that is in a plain black box. Of course, just like the Ears, our eyes see everything different. And that's what makes the world so wonderful! I personally do not like the looks of Meridian, naim, and etc. stuff may sound good but it's hedious to look at, I prefer Jadis, line Magnetic Audio, audio with character!
There is more, like are you too lazy to get up off the couch to change the volume or do you need a remote? Do I need bells and whitles or do I want the simplistic style? Solid State or Tube? Handmade construction or printed circuit board construction? All these things and more will help you to decide what to listen to and try out.
I hope this is what you wanted to know. |
I know this is going to be unheeded considering my recent involvement with another thread but here goes: You're a complete idiot if you spend more on snake oil than you did on your gear. I'm referring to wires and cables, receptacles and plugs etc. Your gear is capable of only so much. If you want serious improvement, spend it on gear. Either by internally upgrading what you have, or replacing it. |
You are correct, it won't be heeded, but that does not mean it's not true. There are more people on this site, that believe what you said, than you might think. I think the pervasive audiophile peer pressure keeps many quiet. |
I've done more stupid things than I care to admit to. But who's ever learned anything the easy way;) |
- Every speaker and / or system sounds different. But, they are all supposed to sound the same. So, what's accurate? No one with any sense really knows for sure.
- Speakers are indeed the soul of your system as much as no two people are alike (see above).
- If you want to hear it, I imagine you will. Who am I to say no to that? It doesn't hurt anything.
- Never under estimate analog source material. Those 40 year old records sound great.
- Never under estimate high bandwidth digital (SACD and 24 bit digital) they sound great too.
- a very good system will never like all your source material. That's normal. Some source material is simply good music that sounds bad.
- Near field listening will get you there sooner. Your room was never a part of the original recording (those ambience reflections are already in the music). So, keep your room out of it if you can.
- Buy quality components you enjoy. To replace cheap equipment that you like, that died, will probably end in frustration as it isn't available any more (it' all broken by now!). Better to have nice things a long time. And, they hold their value if you have to part with them. |
first piece of advice--listen to the "music" and not the equipment"--let your ears guide you as opposed to a commission oriented sales person. Also--"The Audio Beat"
is a great on line publication by Marc Mickelson--he always has great advise and responses-------tell him if u email him sheldon simon referred you to his site |
1. Buy from long established manufacturers (e.g. B&W, McIntosh) with good QC that will be around to service what they sell - avoid the latest garage-based Wunderkinder.
2. There's a lot of snake oil out there - not everything works as advertised. If you can't hear a difference, don't buy it. Watch out for the power of suggestion.
3. Be aware of bang-for-the-buck and diminishing returns. A one thousand dollar amplifier will almost certainly sound better than a one hundred dollar amplifier, but a ten thousand dollar amplifier may or may not sound much better than a one thousand dollar amplifier, depending on your ears, your system, and the alignment of the planets.
4. That said, buy the best you can afford and then don't mess with it- avoid the temptation constantly to upgrade.
5. Are you the kind of audiophile that wants great sound without a lot of fuss? Or the kind that wants great sound but also enjoys geeking around with the equipment, experimenting with new stuff, etc.? If the latter, then consider ignoring # 4. |
1. Its hard to spend enough on equipment to compensate for a poor listening area.(ie don't spend a ton of money unless you have a good space)
2. Spend the time required to position speakers and equipment properly.
3.Buy used equipment or demos from brands that have been around a while.
4. Be careful to match speaker efficiency with amp power |
Oldears, I had no real choice in our 1500 ft2 place in New Mexico mountains. It is 10 x 13 x 8 and must also on occasion serve as a bedroom. Fortunately, I discovered the Zilplex cups. I still remember listening to Diana Krall's 'A Case of You' without them. It was okay but obvious that I was in a small room. Then I put the eleven Zilplexes up where the instruction said. When I resumed playing, I was shocked to hear myself at her concert! I had the eerie sense that were I to stand and walk forward five feet I would fall out of my listening room.
This is not to say, of course, that the irregularity of many rooms means they can be made easy to work room with the Zilplexes, but neither will spending more money on your system. |
1- establish a baseline of what you like and don't like
2- establish a baseline of what is more important and less important
3- never audition gear with unfamiliar music
4- trust your ears above all else
5- if possible, try to find and buy gently used gear
I've found these rules work well for me
I don't like hyper-detailed- it just sounds bright to me
I'll always choose solid bass over spectacular 3D imaging
I've used Graceland to audition gear since the 1980's
I once listened to a very costly (5 figure) Pre which I thought was a dog, though it garnered raves - I prefered the same manufactuers other Pre which was 1/3 the price
Half my system was bought used. Now it's all used. |
Tell you what and this i learned many yrs ago. Find a girl fall in love and one day you will come to realize even a clock radio can sound magical. It's all about the music and how you relate to at a given moment in time. The magic is IN you! |
Find music you love and listen to it till it makes you cry. the gear doesn't matter. If you can feel the emotion from the music, you are there. |
Those are some of the wisest words in this hobby of ours from Rdiirio and Cerrot. Thanks. |
Consider looking at DIY speaker sites. Some members use active crossovers with multiple amps with carefully "matched to spec" high-end drivers. Stereo active crossovers are a very convenient DIY audiophile tool to own. You can upgrade cabinet drivers easily. If you like tone controls to correct poor recordings in a particular room, the active crossovers separate bass, midrange, and treble volume controllers for the independent drivers is very clean and hard to beat. |
Don't let this hobby let you listen to one reference recording gazillion times trying different tweaks, wires, powercords... Listen to more music and spend time and money for more music. |
